egg changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://git.io/JqLs2 | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> egg|nomz|egg: generally if your eyes are dewing over, that's not the weather. | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer. | We can haz pdf | Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/kspacademia
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<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ egg: not inherently, but you could definitely use sorcery in aviation
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ to do things that are ordinarily considered impossible, yes?
<egg|anbo|egg> ah is « ordinarily considered impossible » the key aspect ? I thought it was the « practical applications of cognitive changes » thing
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ whitequark: back to the eggs, I guess my question is whether the usefulness of eggs applies to other things that similarly require learning things to a sub-conscious level (aviation was the example that came to mind, but cycling, writing, etc.; though for those it may be harder to find useful studies than for learning to fly, illiterate control arms seem like a bad idea)
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ re key aspect: those are kind of the same
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ if you can learn to do things the ordinary way, you normally don't have an incentive to do it through metacognition, yes?
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ for example, if you could learn to work around cPTSD or ADHD in normal, straightforward ways, everyone would be doing that!
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ I don’t really understand what you mean by the ordinary way
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ for example, if Catherine has a cPTSD flashback, i can just wipe it. like hitting a reset button
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ in a few seconds, it's gone
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ or, say, ADHD. we can construct a mindstate that, from talking to others, is equivalent in subjective perception to taking stimulants
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ without actually taking any stimulants
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ now, do you think that would be useful as advice for an average person with those conditions?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ I fail to see how learning aviation doesn’t inherently involve metacognitive considerations
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ ah!
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ that's an interesting angle
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ we consider aviation, cycling, writing, etc all variations on tool use
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ in some cases you're inside of the tool.
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ consider driving, for example
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ if learning to drive would require any nontrivial metacognitive capabilities, then the entire adult population of the US would have those
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<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ is flying fundamentally different from driving?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ (unfortunately I have yet to learn to drive so I am not sure that example speaks to me more than flying)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ hm.
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ here's an example that speaks to us
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ scooters!
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ nearly everyone can learn to ride a scooter. it's easier than a bike, probably
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<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ we did that, of course. what we also do is repeatedly push ourselves and the machine to the limits of our and its capabilities
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ in order to not just be able to get where we want, but to synchronize with it in the most efficient way
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ make it an extension of ourselves to the extent where it feels as natural as walking or breathing
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ do people do that with flying? yes, absolutely. does *everyone* do that with flying? we expect not
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ certainly I have seen remarks to that effect wrt aircraft with particularly good man-machine interfaces
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ but more generally
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ Consider IFR flight; you need to, deep-down, retrain your sense of orientation to base it upon your instruments (it is common to feel that one is upside-down while being right-side up, and vice-versa)
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ oh yes
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ and this obviously cannot be at a purely conscious level
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ IFR flight requires rewiring
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ lest you hit the ground before you have read the instrument
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ yeah, and high-speed flight, formation flight, likewise
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ now, consider
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ some degree of rewiring is inherent in learning to use any tool
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ rewiring with metacognition allows you to do it more directly
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ not just repeatedly train for it, but recognize the pattern behind the instruments and hook it up to the sense of balance or what you'd like
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ become the instrument itself
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ like, say, maybe you're having problems taking e2 on schedule or staying hydrated. you can use reminders, train yourself to do it every X minutes, or something
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ you can also find the part of your brain that says you're low on e2 or dehydrated, and hook it up to the idea of taking pills or drinking a cup
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ that takes a few minutes. something more substantial like changing how your visual perception works, or hooking up instruments to your sense of balance requires a deeper change in cognition. in our experience, things like that take longer, and come with interesting effects, like psychedelic perception (though that might just be a result of off-target 5HT2A activation)
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ oh, another fun thing we learned how to do a while ago
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ look at a false color image and connect the color map directly to a feeling
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ for example, there was a false color image of Mars with surface roughness, so we hooked the colors to the feeling of roughness
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ it's like synesthesia on demand
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ > <@whitequark:matrix.org> IFR flight requires rewiring
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ this is why I think this is an interesting avenue of research to answer your question about eggs; there probably is quite a lot of data on pilot training
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ oh!
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ yes, this makes sense
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ wonder if there is a bimodal distribution there
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ that could answer a few questions
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ thank you
* queqiao- ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ pets whitequark with an egg
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ nyaa~
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ whitequark: also an interesting thing to look at may be studies of people who fly both fixed-wing and rotary-wing aircraft; the former involves learning how to recognize signs of—and avoid—stall in a way that, aiui, makes it harder to learn the latter
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ nodnod
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<raptop> !wpn
* galois gives raptop a quantitative sable mewon
* raptop pets the mewon before it decays
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ !wpn egg
* galois gives egg a x86 SNOBOL life
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ wow
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ rude
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<egg|anbo|egg> cat is soft
* egg|anbo|egg pets cat
<egg|anbo|egg> !wpn -add:adj SSE2
<galois> Added adj 'SSE2'
<egg|anbo|egg> !wpn -add:adj AVX
<galois> Added adj 'AVX'
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<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ !wpn whitequark
* galois gives whitequark a piano
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ whitequark: e.g. found https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5774659/ from very cursory googling
<galois> title: Dietary Effects on Cognition and Pilots’ Flight Performance
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ (though flight performance rather than flight training)
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ huh, significantly /poorer/
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ yeah but fat
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ I believe someone mentioned that about egges
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ the study is also kind of done backwards
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ yeah I would not be surprised if I had found a piece of crap, again I didn’t try very hard and aiui that field is full of it
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ we're not sure how to design an experiment testing for what we're interested in
<queqiao-> ⟨w​hitequark⟩ but the direction seems promising
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1930071/
<galois> title: Dietary intake and blood lipid profile survey of fighter pilots at Tyndall Air Force Base
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ sadly it appears there are no results on pubmed for usaf eggs
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<UmbralRaptop> (cc: egg)
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<egg|anbo|egg> !wpn whitequark
* galois gives whitequark an altar
<raptop> !wpn -add:wpn chalice
<galois> Added wpn 'chalice'
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<galois> title: Collections: Teaching Paradox, Europa Universalis IV, Part I: State of Play – A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry
<egg|anbo|egg> (interesting blog, in general)
<galois> title: AI doesn't understand scale
<raptop> egg|anbo|egg: conteggst?
<raptop> ah
<e_14159> Yes, acoup is very interesting. I quite liked the historical Mongols series. (I also haven't read the Paradox series series yet, because time)
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<egg|anbo|egg> https://twitter.com/pikhq/status/1408115972431511554 same (but I am pretty sure this is my autocomplete for anything, I frequently just type that when figuring out what code I want to write or as a bookmark when scrolling elsewhere in a document I am writing)
<egg|anbo|egg> (or variations, kitten, cat, meow, etc.)
<raptop> egg|anbo|egg: no thoughts, only cat
<egg|anbo|egg> cat.
* raptop had to look up 捨
<SnoopJ> 猫 (chunky)
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<egg|anbo|egg> !wpn e_14159
<egg|anbo|egg> uh
<egg|anbo|egg> !wpn e_14159
* galois gives e_14159 a gallium ネコノミコン with a clutter attachment
<egg|anbo|egg> appropriate
<raptop> !wpn egg|anbo|egg
* galois gives egg|anbo|egg a chonk executive mech
<raptop> A photosynthesis problem: it probably works better around hotter stars https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/505/3/3329/6278213
<galois> title: Efficiency of the oxygenic photosynthesis on Earth-like planets in the habitable zone | Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society | Oxford Academic
<raptop> "The most common English word that works as a `s/*/*/` sed command is 'statement'."