r4m0n changed the topic of #kspmodders to: Technical discussion ONLY (KSP related or not), for random shit-talking, join #shitshow (seriously)
BasharMilesTeg has joined #kspmodders
BasharMilesTeg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
fcbayerndm has quit [Quit: fcbayerndm]
BasharMilesTeg_ has joined #kspmodders
BasharMilesTeg has quit [Ping timeout: 186 seconds]
Severian has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
Severian has joined #kspmodders
BasharMilesTeg has joined #kspmodders
BasharMilesTeg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 186 seconds]
BasharMilesTeg_ has joined #kspmodders
BasharMilesTeg has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
BasharMilesTeg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
icefire has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<G-Mobile>
youtu.be/reh79gYsaQE
<G-Mobile>
did that I wrong
<G-Mobile>
very tired
<G-Mobile>
works though
<G-Mobile>
SilverFox: found a case
<G-Mobile>
anyway dude makes engines that use solenoids instead of combustion
<G-Mobile>
even has this neat throttle mechanism
<G-Mobile>
I wonder how much torque he could get out of these things
<G-Mobile>
put it in a real chassis, with a miniature transmission, see what she can do
Raidernick has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Raidernick has joined #kspmodders
<G-Mobile>
in the continuing adventures of god damn it computers are expensive to keep modern; intel has segmented their xeon branding with the new Xeon W line, W, for Workstation
<G-Mobile>
so basically where they used to have i5 and i7 SKUs binned into xeons, they did away with that, put the xeons all on their own socket so we plebs can't touch them, and now they're bringin' it back
GlassYuri has joined #kspmodders
<G-Mobile>
SilverFox: you have to see this motherboard
<G-Mobile>
this motherboard is actually a great lesson in the flexibility of PCI lanes and GPUs
<G-Mobile>
cryptomining involves putting a mathematical task on the GPU, and then performing it as fast as possible, massively parallel; you don't need to transfer any real data back and forth, you could almost build a dedicated host circuitboard to put the formula on the card and then write results to an SD card or something
<G-Mobile>
there's so little data being used that you really only need the power connection, and one lane of slot, obviously with a riser
<G-Mobile>
so they made this card with 18 pcie x1 slots to plug your risers into, bare minimum board features, not even much space for ram, not even six sata ports, and then probably the one full size x16 slot will be used for crossfire, sli, or something to get the cards to interact better; or just perform some central service
<G-Mobile>
the kind of people who would buy this card are the kind of people who are scalping burnt out titan XPs and 1080s to pay for replacements, so you know each one of those slots is going to have a full fat card attached to it
<G-Mobile>
it's hilarious, tragic, and educational!
Hyratel_ has joined #kspmodders
Hyratel1 has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
<G-Mobile>
re the xeon W, looking at their model chart, the W-2123 is a pretty compelling competitor for my E3-1230; 4 core 8 thread, 3.6GHz base clock, 294$ MSRP
<G-Mobile>
stands to reason I'll be able to find it for 240$ on sale at some point
<G-Mobile>
I don't love that it's still double the TDP but if I pair that with w10 there should be more low power mode time, and the instructional improvements they've made should give a substantial improvement in performance, further reducing the average
<G-Mobile>
I currently idle between 84F and 104F depending on weather, that could get lower
<G-Mobile>
and then fucking firefox will be god damn responsive and fucking when I close a youtube video the video will stop playing
<G-Mobile>
unfortunately they've got two clock classes per core/thread arrangement, and every tier up adds the price of the 2123, so even to get a 6 core 12 thread unit would be 600$
<G-Mobile>
10/20 is 1440$
<G-Mobile>
one major downside, the Ws do use LGA2066, but they use a unique chipset that is not compatible
<G-Mobile>
knack 2
<G-Mobile>
the sequel nobody asked for to the game nobody wanted
<Supernovy>
KNACK TWOOOO BAAAYYBEEEE
Supernovy has quit [Quit: Be back later]
Wetmelon has joined #kspmodders
Wetmelon has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
angavrilov has joined #kspmodders
<G-Mobile>
that's entirely too many vowels
<G-Mobile>
this game will not earn any of them
Supernovy has joined #kspmodders
RandomJeb has joined #kspmodders
Kaelten has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Asymptote has joined #kspmodders
<Orum>
speaking of computers, I'm glad to see AMD is offering replacements to those affected by the segfault issue
<Orum>
time to see if it actually affects me...
<Orum>
"For a starting point, consider values between half and double the number of cores." :|
<SilverFox>
G-Mobile, interesting that they use only 1x lanes for mining, i thought they'd be using more. However, is it pure core clock that makes the most difference, or does memory clock also factor into it? Does it use lots of VRAM or is it just looking for the higher clock speeds so that you could underclock the memory and have more power room to overclock the core?
<Orum>
mining doesn't need to utilize the PCIe bus much
<SilverFox>
which is pretty nifty
<Orum>
I guess?
Kaelten has joined #kspmodders
<G-Mobile>
mining rigs are like sacks full of pokeballs, where the pokeballs are full of slaves doing slave labor and every now and then the balls crack open and 20$ falls out
<SilverFox>
sick
<SilverFox>
would tuning the cards be like IV training?
<Orum>
so basically it's the digital equivalent of pokemon GO
<G-Mobile>
don't you wish your ballsack randomly filled with 20$ bills
<SilverFox>
I would imagine that'd be very painful and infection would be rampant
<G-Mobile>
nah, each bill is laced with a tiny amount of cocaine, which is an antimicrobial, so it's sanitary
<SilverFox>
which would probably kill sperm, so you'd become sterile
<Orum>
I'm pretty sure putting cocaine directly into your bloodstream will kill more than just sperm
<SilverFox>
I mean, it wouldnt be in your bloodstream
<SilverFox>
not at first anyways
<G-Mobile>
very very small amounts
<G-Mobile>
at random intervals
<SilverFox>
wouldnt be effective
<G-Mobile>
if you were really lucky you might get a few in a short period, but the system is designed to make that unlikely
<SilverFox>
anyways, back to the technical
<SilverFox>
does memory clock have a significant effect compared to core clock, in terms of mining?
BasharMilesTeg has joined #kspmodders
<Orum>
!8ball answer SilverFox's question
<Orum>
we no longer have an 8ball? :(
<SilverFox>
is that a kountdown function?
<Orum>
probably just the wrong prefix...
<TheKosmonaut>
;8ball is this correct
<kmath>
TheKosmonaut: Nope
<Orum>
I suspect it's rather unimportant
<Orum>
oh, there we go
<G-Mobile>
the process of mining is as follows: obtain the formula, and the specification of a valid result; put numbers into the formula, check if valid, increment the number, put it back in
<SilverFox>
I just learned that korean doctors tend to prescribe more antibiotics for people whom are sick. Lemme tell you why this is bad:
<G-Mobile>
you need one chunk of ram big enough to store the number, cycle it through the formula, whenever a valid result is found, tell the software
<SilverFox>
antibiotic treatments are usually given over a period of time, and are only really effective if you take ALL of the treatment. This is where the problem lies; people stop after they start feeling better. This causes half-treated microbes that are still living and building immunity to these anti-biotics
<G-Mobile>
now, really, you're going to be working on multiple numbers at the same time
<Orum>
yeah, when I was writing domain mining software it was basically the same
<Orum>
even so, you're basically always limited by core clocks
<G-Mobile>
cryptomining is basically a very dumb process of evolving a value in the hopes that you'll get a result meeting the guidelines first
<SilverFox>
I can tell core clocks are big here, but I was curious if memory clocks were significant or if they could be sacrificed for core clock increase
<Orum>
it doesn't really work like that
<Orum>
slowing down your mem clock doesn't give you meaningful boost in core clock
<TheKosmonaut>
SilverFox: Japanese doctors do the same
<SilverFox>
TheKosmonaut, not good
<SilverFox>
this is why we're hesitant on prescribing anti-biotics
<G-Mobile>
what silver means is can you ignore improving the memory clock in favor of the core clock, aka which matters more
<SilverFox>
I mean what I said
<SilverFox>
underclock memory, gives more room for core clock increase
<Orum>
yeah, core clock, if bitcoin mining is anything like domain mining
<G-Mobile>
that's dumb
<G-Mobile>
you're smarter than that
<SilverFox>
less memory clock = less power draw = more power room available for possible core clock increase
<G-Mobile>
I doubt the two clocks are running on the same regulator
<Orum>
unless you have something enforcing power restrictions (e.g. BIOS) it will not matter
<SilverFox>
fair
<G-Mobile>
it's not like slowing down the ram clock speed will let you get higher stable CPU voltages
<SilverFox>
also, isnt power draw a big thing in mining as well?
<Orum>
from the standpoint if you don't make more than you spend on the power, you're just losing money
<G-Mobile>
the price of power is the "only" operational cost of mining
<G-Mobile>
that's why most miners try to put their rig in datacenters with fixed power costs
<Orum>
and also why datacenters start metering power...
<G-Mobile>
datacenters leverage bulk economics so the power is relatively cheap, and has bonuses like being particularly clean and having several layers of interruption resistence
<G-Mobile>
eh, metering has a lot of costs associated, from logistics, to equipment for tracking, to the added strain of both the host and the client having to consider it
<SilverFox>
I wonder if the performance drop from lowering memory clock would outweigh that of power prices
<Orum>
memory uses very little power
<G-Mobile>
plus, when you as a host don't meter, you get to apply insurance economics; most people use little, and the unused capacity paid for in the fixed rate more than covers for the elevated capacity of the few
<G-Mobile>
what datacenters actually do, is ban mining rigs
<SilverFox>
yeah but you can tax the higher usage people to encourage less power draw
<G-Mobile>
why?
<SilverFox>
like I said, discourage higher power draw while making extra money
<G-Mobile>
in most cases, the higher usage people are the people who are also paying you for more services
<G-Mobile>
datacenters work like microtransactions, most clients are insignificantly profitable, and a very small number are hugely profitable
<G-Mobile>
you want that one guy with seven racks who has the PDUs pegged to really fucking love that he's got his shit in your racks, because you're making more off of him than twice as many racks from small fries
<G-Mobile>
gotta keep your domains in mind; if we're just talking about power usage, the whales are paid for by the tuna
<G-Mobile>
if we're talking about client relationships, the whales pay for the company
<G-Mobile>
rub that whale's belly every chance you get
<G-Mobile>
never punch him in the eye
<G-Mobile>
how come tins of sardines don't always have sardines in them?
<Orum>
someone has food on her mind: fries, whales, tuna, and sardines
<G-Mobile>
huh, dixie chicks made a new music
<G-Mobile>
I thought they were trapped in the 90s by a lich
<G-Mobile>
or dead
<Orum>
their music might still be
<G-Mobile>
it's country
<G-Mobile>
the goal is 1976
<G-Mobile>
back when men were men, women were trucks, beer was men, and dogs were wives
<G-Mobile>
23.88 on the insanometer
<G-Mobile>
quick, somebody say something technical
<SilverFox>
how bout yall just stop saying non-technical shit
<G-Mobile>
I'm doing generally goodish
<Orum>
"something technical"
<Orum>
why, is egg back?
<G-Mobile>
we officially discovered the higgs boson right? does that ratify the higgs field concept within the current model of mass?
<G-Mobile>
egg, quick, is the higgs boson real now?
<Orum>
;8ball Does referring to the Higgs Boson as the "God particle" qualitfy as sacrilegious
<kmath>
Orum: Cannot predict now
<G-Mobile>
why did anybody call it that?
<Orum>
guess we have to wait for the horsemen to show up to know
<G-Mobile>
it's not really godular in any way
<Orum>
because the fucking media latched on to it like a cancer
<G-Mobile>
just like the media latched onto the flint water crysis, and then walked awy without discoveriing what the end of the story was
<Orum>
yep, they got distracted by a shiny object somewhere else, usually vaguely involving race in some negative manner
<Orum>
or gender identity
<G-Mobile>
both; trump
<Orum>
ugh
<G-Mobile>
the flint situation was a -- this isn't technical enough
<G-Mobile>
somebody should start a kickstarter to make high end hardware to software encryption platform that IoT bullshit can use to not be so crap, so things like smart doorknobs aren't terrifyingllly insecure
<Orum>
how about the AoT solution
<G-Mobile>
I don't know what that is
<Orum>
Analog of Things
<Orum>
it's called "don't fucking make things that don't need network connectivity, networked"
<Orum>
e.g. your thermostat does not need to know the latest update on the civil war in syria
<G-Mobile>
say I wanted to open my front door with a HID PROX badge, no network, just a OTP based handshake via short range RF, even that is really super duper insecure
<Orum>
so just don't do it... seems simple enough
<G-Mobile>
I would like it if my thermostat knew the temperature in three different points around the house, including it's own location, and could operate baffles and open/close windows as part of the thermal strategy
angavrilov|phone has joined #kspmodders
<G-Mobile>
and ideally if it's in control of the windows I want it to know if it's a fucking monsoon outside so it doesn't cause water damage
<Orum>
yeah, but that still doesn't need internet connectivity
<Orum>
or any IP for that matter
<G-Mobile>
if I owned a home I could get a weather station and have this all wired, but since I can't modify the walls or put up a weather station, I'm going to need a service to tell the thermostat if it's likely to rain
<Orum>
easy enough
<G-Mobile>
there's exactly two reasons that all this IoT shit is as bad as it is, #1, IoT companies don't have the funding to make world class security platforms, and B, humans suck
<Orum>
you can put a barometer indoors, you know
<G-Mobile>
humans suck at making world class security platforms, and suck at not exploiting flaws in them for their own gain
<Orum>
I think the while IoT thing (yes intentionally using the word twice in a row) is just something foisted upon us by the NSA
<Orum>
but hey, I'm paranoid
angavrilov||phone has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
<G-Mobile>
what needs to be is a security platform as a service, where the consumer has a relationship with the security platform, so that the products don't have to eat the cost of using it
<G-Mobile>
it's just like email apps
<G-Mobile>
all the good ones go out of business becauuse they're free or one time payment, and that's not a viable economic plan
<Orum>
o rly?
<Orum>
last I check thunderbird is still kickin
<G-Mobile>
also a lot of good ones become bad ones by persuing alternate.... HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
<G-Mobile>
thunderbird was never good, or an app
<Orum>
it's both good, and an app
<G-Mobile>
it's a program
<Orum>
explain how programs are not "apps"
<G-Mobile>
apps come from walled gardens
<Orum>
riiiiiiiiiiiiiight
<G-Mobile>
google play, itunes, mac app store, windows app store
<G-Mobile>
if it ain't on that it ain't an app
<G-Mobile>
it's just software
<G-Mobile>
which is usually better
<Orum>
isn't there a mobile thunderbird?
<G-Mobile>
you really think I would know a damn thing about thunderbird in 2017
<Orum>
how would I know?
<G-Mobile>
this is the future man, get with it
<G-Mobile>
let's forget the email part, and stick with phones
<G-Mobile>
there's four kinds of apps on phone app stores, free without ads, gonna die; free with ads, probably gonna turn evil; one time payment, gonna go out of business or get sold and turn crap or get sunsetted; monthly or yearly subscription; probably going to work out
<G-Mobile>
there was an email app for ios, I think called Mailbox; Dropbox bought them, sunsetted like a week later
<Orum>
yeah, I know Google loves the ad ones, and they've made it harder to block them
<G-Mobile>
Vine, twitter bought, shut down
<G-Mobile>
why they even do that?
<Orum>
because they can?
<G-Mobile>
recently Apple bought a super important automation app on ios, Workflow, and everybody is fucking terrified that they're going to kill the app and replace it with OS features that don't serve the same function
<G-Mobile>
just like every time Squad stole a mod's idea
<G-Mobile>
the scarriest part about the apple/workflow thing is that they announced the purchase, and then made the app free at the same time
<Orum>
> apple
<Orum>
do people expect something else?
<G-Mobile>
like saying "we have no concern for the economic value of this app"
<Orum>
squad "borrowed" my idea to some degree, I consider it flattery
<Orum>
not theft
<Orum>
now if they took the code or assets, that would be a different story
<G-Mobile>
I've got this calendar widget app that I bought in 2010, and it's the best fucking widget, but I'm seriously concerned that it's been 7 years since I last gave this developer money
<G-Mobile>
what reason do I have to believe that I will continue to have this calendar that is critical to my understanding of time and space going forwards?
<G-Mobile>
I have a solid black wall paper and I use the most transparent theme it has (it has many themes)
<Orum>
can you disable transparency?
<Orum>
and use a theme that doesn't look like Windows XP?
<G-Mobile>
this app is able to represent my fucking midnight crossing weekly asymetric work schedule in a way that is easy to comprehend
<G-Mobile>
there's many themes that are different, but I've always used this one that, with a black background, is super minimal
<Orum>
why do you work in the middle of the night, anyway?
<G-Mobile>
because that's when my shift is
<G-Mobile>
I'm security/tech support
<Orum>
ah
<Orum>
so they don't care if you're staring at IRC instead of a monitor?
<G-Mobile>
I'm staring at IRC, and three monitors, one with discord, one with youtube, and one with webcomics (and the tickets site) while listening to podcasts
<G-Mobile>
get on my level
<Orum>
and 0 video feeds
<Orum>
let me know where you work so I can go rob the place
<G-Mobile>
oh yea, those are on a TV above the monitors
<G-Mobile>
17 feeds
<G-Mobile>
I have so much attention
<Orum>
well apparently anyone can just walk right in with those other distractions
<G-Mobile>
nah, our doors are attack dogs
<Orum>
and discord....don't they hear you talking on it?
<G-Mobile>
talking?
<G-Mobile>
also, who would hear?
<Orum>
O.o?
* Orum
thinks we're not talking about the same thing
<Orum>
as in discordapp.com ?
<G-Mobile>
yep
<Orum>
people use that to char?
<Orum>
chat*
<G-Mobile>
it's like IRC, but generally worse, and a little bit better
<Orum>
hah, I only use that voice, and only because one of my friends refuses to use mumble
<G-Mobile>
mumble is dead
<Orum>
like thunderbird, right?
<G-Mobile>
nah
<G-Mobile>
thunderbird is just crap
<Orum>
okay :)
<G-Mobile>
mumble never had a substantial market share, it was always a small time alternative to teamspeak
<Orum>
I can't imagine life without thunderbird... oh wait, yes I can, it would suck
<Orum>
LOL teamspeak
<G-Mobile>
yea
<Orum>
that was stuck with speex forever
<Orum>
took them forever to catch up to mumble
<G-Mobile>
the entire voip space is a shitty place full of shitty things
<Orum>
don't know what you're talking about, mumble is pretty great
<G-Mobile>
discord is bad, skype is bad, teamspeak is bad, and nobody uses mumble
<Orum>
you need to get on *my* level then
<Orum>
skype includes a free backdoor with every installation though
<G-Mobile>
back on track, where was the last technical thing
<G-Mobile>
how to be economically viable?
<Orum>
leave the EU
<Orum>
oh wait...
<Orum>
elect trump as president!
<Orum>
oh wait...
<G-Mobile>
yea see the problem with apps (on phones) is that either your plan is to be an angel, which doesn't work; be an asshole, in which case your app is going to suck to use, or make an app that will get bought, which is not attractive to the user base because bought apps typically die
<G-Mobile>
very few developers make apps with the plan to have the app be independently economically viable
<Orum>
this is why walled gardens suck, but this isn't news
<G-Mobile>
we're at a point where apps that have billing cycles are much more attractive because you know that developer will get paid consistently, and therefore will have consistent reason to maintain and improve the app
<G-Mobile>
discord is fucking terrible
<G-Mobile>
slack is fucking terrible
<Orum>
thank you
<G-Mobile>
they're literally the same app
<Orum>
you mean the web app or the desktop software?
<G-Mobile>
they're both actually the same website with some stuff rearranged, like wordpress sites with different themes
<G-Mobile>
the desktop softwre is the website
<G-Mobile>
just in a window
<Orum>
no
<G-Mobile>
yeeef
<Orum>
well, it might be a browser that loads the site
<Orum>
but that's still something that runs outside of a browser
<G-Mobile>
and slack's desktop software is the same base framework as discord, with a different theme and some better and worse features
<Orum>
how do you even find a chat channel on discord?
<G-Mobile>
the two services are a venn diagram with 80% overlap
<Orum>
who in their right mind uses discord for chat in the first place?
<Orum>
you can fit like a whopping 4 lines of text on a 4k monitor
<G-Mobile>
it's pretty decent for chat, it's async so log on anywhere and there's everything, it's got a lot of imbedery that makes sharing links and shit easier
<Orum>
ugh
<G-Mobile>
oh, I mod the fuck out of the discord app to make it less shit
<Orum>
I'm quite glad my IRC client doesn't open every fucking link, TYVM
<G-Mobile>
also it's free to make as many servers as you want
<Orum>
my screen would probably be full of lesbian doujins from this channel otherwise
<G-Mobile>
and each server operates basically like an IRC network with a teamspeak attached
<G-Mobile>
we don't do that here anymore
<Orum>
jesus did Hitler take over while I was gone?
<G-Mobile>
aside from generally being crap, the biggest problem with discord is that there's a very small set of visual themes, which all have very poor text contrast, and tiny fonts; but they've added a UI scaler system recently that makes it readable to me, and at home I use a set of mods that let me fuck with the CSS
<G-Mobile>
because the desktop app is HTML
<Orum>
so you download the desktop app, and just edit the files?
<G-Mobile>
orum #shitshow
<G-Mobile>
nah, the files are deepfreezed
<Orum>
yes, I'm aware of it
<G-Mobile>
that's where hitler went
Severian has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Orum>
I thought the topic here was a joke, but I guess not
<G-Mobile>
brb, coffee piss
Severian has joined #kspmodders
<Orum>
hrm... Hitler = Majir?
<G-Mobile>
nope
<Orum>
who then?
<G-Mobile>
he's more like truneau
<G-Mobile>
I think that's how canada spells that guy
<G-Mobile>
hitler is, metaphorically, the culture that #kspmodders had become
<G-Mobile>
this is my december
<Orum>
yes, but why?
<G-Mobile>
because everybody agreed that "ksp" is going to attract children, even if we hide from the world, so we should take the hitler part somewhere children aren't likely to show up
<Orum>
this from #kspofficial?
<G-Mobile>
this hitler does not behave in accordance with the whims of flimsy self proclaimed authority structures
<G-Mobile>
tldr, fuck them, we ain't care
<Orum>
I still don't know who hitler is
<Orum>
but okay
<G-Mobile>
hitler is us
<Orum>
no
<G-Mobile>
I feel like this true facts session is not technical enough
<Orum>
r4m0n?
<Orum>
seriously, I don't know any nazi admins here
<G-Mobile>
hitler is not an individual
<Orum>
no, but whoever it is has power (allegedly)
<G-Mobile>
it is us
<Orum>
NEIN!
<G-Mobile>
we decided to make this change
<Orum>
well shit, I didn't get to vote
<G-Mobile>
you weren't here for like six years
<Orum>
where's my absentee ballot?
<G-Mobile>
you never mailed it
<G-Mobile>
there was actually a poll
<Orum>
fuck, I knew I was supposed to do something
<Orum>
really?
<G-Mobile>
70% for, 20% "wtf is this", 10% no
<Orum>
so 70% of voters were from 4chan
<Orum>
and 10% from this channel
<G-Mobile>
so there's this cheapass watch turner with all exposed shitty circuitry and shit; 2,545.75$
<G-Mobile>
I could make this PCB myself, and make it look nicer, for like 30$
<G-Mobile>
the glass box is even shitty
<Orum>
step 2: ..... Step 3: profit?!
<G-Mobile>
anyway, I have to go meet my technical quota, bbl
<Orum>
inb4 the contents of wikipedia's page on non-linear partial differention equations are pasted to this channel
<Orum>
differential* jesus, why does my mind think one thing and my fingers type something else
<G-Mobile>
differential jesus, he can fix any drive train
<Orum>
presumably
<Orum>
I need to stop reading wikipedia, every time I do stumble across random new medical conditions more terrifying than the last
<G-Mobile>
there's a book, How to Count (programming for mere mortals), which I'm told is great or programmers to learn with how they are stupid
<G-Mobile>
an important lesson in programming
<G-Mobile>
but amazon then suggests other books
<G-Mobile>
obvious stuff like "Code: the hidden language of computer hardware and software"
<G-Mobile>
or "think like a programmer"
<G-Mobile>
and "The caledonian gambit"
<G-Mobile>
but then, the second suggestion
<G-Mobile>
But.
<G-Mobile>
How do it know?
<Orum>
how to count sounds more like a intro to programming based on its description
<Orum>
"...a series of books designed to introduce the concepts of programming from the ground up to a reader who has never written a line of code."
<G-Mobile>
yea, but intentions are wishes
<G-Mobile>
I've heard a good solid handful of career programmers say this book makes you better at programming
<Orum>
hrm
<G-Mobile>
I ain't know if this is an episode where he mentiones it but;
<Orum>
I doubt that, but I'd be willing to give it a try if it's at my library (translation: no)
<G-Mobile>
~g accidental technology podcast sympathy for the machine
<Orum>
"I thought this book was actually targeted at technical people who somehow overlooked key fundamental concepts of computer engineering, but in fact it seems to try to target a wider audience."
<Orum>
I should write a book titled "1000 reasons not to become a programmer"
<G-Mobile>
tldl, cuz it is a long show, John Siracusa poses that there's an issue with program design intention, in that people are willing to write horribly inefficient code because the machine is fast enough to just work, imagining a situation where the computer is endlessly running shitty loops doing the same things over and over for no reason, hence having some empathy for the machine makes you feel bad for writing bad code; if I recall, it's been three years
<G-Mobile>
listening now, cuz it's a good show and I have a lot of time
<Orum>
yes, most programmers are hell-bent on proving Wirth's law
<Orum>
of course, it doesn't help when the systems you're programming for have atrocious documentation
<G-Mobile>
I don't know what that is, but I surmize it's a law that CPUs increase in performance slightly slower than programs get worse
<Orum>
that's accurate
<G-Mobile>
oh the empathy quote is actually pretty eary on
<G-Mobile>
early
<G-Mobile>
about 11 minutes in
<Orum>
> early
<Orum>
> 11 minutes in
<G-Mobile>
out of an hour and fifty minutes
<G-Mobile>
literally 10%
Technicalfool is now known as TechnicallySleeping
<G-Mobile>
after the ad break John goes into a diatribe about the organziation of data on disk vs how the OS thinks about the disk, and how that leads to incorrect spacial accounting
<sloth>
umpires
<G-Mobile>
umpires?
<Orum>
what what?
<G-Mobile>
umpires apparently
<Orum>
not the umpires thing, the accounting thing
<Orum>
how does an OS not know how much of a disk is use (unless you're talking about FUSE)
<G-Mobile>
oh, if you have a bunch of symlinks/hardlinks and you count the amount of stuff on a drive by iterating over the files and adding it up, you'll get the wrong result
<Orum>
it's called "du"
<Orum>
and it works pretty damn well
<G-Mobile>
I'm pretty sure at the time of this episode there was no asterisk and this was entirely a people counting wrongly thing, but modern macOS is switching to a brand new disk format with a lot more redundecy collapse, tiered citizenry, and cloud integration, so it can be very complicated to say how much stuff is on the disk
<Orum>
not really
<Orum>
I mean, "data on the disk" has different interpritations, but as long as you know what you're looking for you can usually find it
<G-Mobile>
there's this system they put in a year or two ago where there's two systems, one system marks files that haven't been deleted as deletable, so if ever the space is needed the OS will purge stuff; parts of the OS treat purgable data as a member of freespace
<Orum>
maybe not in MacOS, but if you're using an apple product you probably don't care
<G-Mobile>
then there's a second system that will attempt to keep certain kinds of data off of the machine by relocating it to your icloud account, mainly as a factor of bulk and access frequency
<G-Mobile>
so say you've got a movie that you haven't watched in five years, that's probably not actually on your laptop anymore and when you try to open the file it'll get downloaded
<G-Mobile>
the same for music and photos
<G-Mobile>
this has been broadly divisive
<G-Mobile>
so you've got one system that might treat some chunk of data that is on the disk as if it isn't there, and another system that might treat a bunch of data that isn't there as if it is
<Orum>
right, and?
<Orum>
last I check those who are members of the Church of Apple don't care
<sloth>
Zarthus: no
<G-Mobile>
so if you did the dumb thing and just summed the size of the files the file system tells you are there, you'll get a number that doesn't agree with different places in the OS
<Orum>
right, which is why I said there are different interpritations of what "used" space means
<G-Mobile>
now then there's a tertiary situation where APFS is all about not copying things until there's a change in information, so you could have ten billion copies of a 5mb file but if you never change any of them, they're all references to the original
<Orum>
sparse files make this very obvious
<G-Mobile>
I don't know what to tell you, this is the conversation
<G-Mobile>
you can have a different one
<Orum>
well, no one is more "correct" than the other
<Orum>
it just depends on what you're after
<Orum>
so I'm not sure why it merits discussion
<G-Mobile>
you asked
<Orum>
well I want to ask him really, not you
<Orum>
probably a few years too late though, oh well
<G-Mobile>
no, now's a much more relevant time to talk about the situation
<G-Mobile>
High Sierra, the upcoming major update to macos, is going to manditorally update all SSD macs to APFS
<G-Mobile>
and it'll probably include a smattering of new expansions to the icloud integration
<Orum>
lulz
<Orum>
that's what you get for buying a mac
<G-Mobile>
APFS is a good thing, they already switched all iOS devices to it a while back, and it's replacing HPFS+, which is from 1996 and is pretty hands down inferior to NTFS
<Orum>
I don't know why they wouldn't just go to ZFS other than it's not "Apple" enough for them
<G-Mobile>
I'm not going to defend apple's dominion fetish
<G-Mobile>
also APFS isn't 100% great either
<Orum>
no FS is
<G-Mobile>
no like, compared to HPFS+
<Orum>
oh, god
<G-Mobile>
neither one of them have data integrity checks
<Orum>
wow, is this the 1990s?
<G-Mobile>
yep
<Orum>
apple needs to catch up with the last few decades
<G-Mobile>
that said I think it's designed so they can implement that later?
<Orum>
LOL
<Orum>
classic
<G-Mobile>
and I think it does have metadata integrity
<Orum>
"that's coming in a future update"
<G-Mobile>
to be fair, apple has this really amazing touchpad
<Orum>
because, you know, I'm going to buy a product just because it has a good touchpad
<G-Mobile>
at work I use a 2012 macbook air, which is an incredibly underpowered tiny device, but it's all so well optimized that it can do a lot of stuff that my similar time period netbook with more powerful hardware couldn't
<G-Mobile>
like watch 720p video
<G-Mobile>
also 4k video
<Orum>
well until last week I had a core 2 laptop.. I think it was circa 2009?
<G-Mobile>
really though the touch pad is a game changer, and the desktops paradigm works really well; the implementation has problems, but the paradigm is great
<G-Mobile>
bah, core 2, how lucky
<G-Mobile>
that netbook was an Atom
<G-Mobile>
fuck that
<Orum>
current atoms are faster than what I had
<G-Mobile>
yep
<Orum>
finally got something newer, but I could still at least watch 720p stuff on it
<Orum>
even 1080p
<G-Mobile>
from 2008 to 20012 or so atoms were designed with one mandate, as weak as we can make it, so the battery lasts longer; and this was a mistake
<G-Mobile>
it was the mistake in my eyes that killed the concept of netbooks
<Orum>
because the battery doesn't actually last longer
<Orum>
because it takes 10x as long to do anything
<Orum>
and your screen is a power vampire
<G-Mobile>
also that plan makes a device that's incredibly useless
<Orum>
yep
<G-Mobile>
as mentioned that netbook cannot play 720p video
<Orum>
yeah that is terrible
<Orum>
the first year at my work we got rid of those
<G-Mobile>
it was a mistake to buy
<G-Mobile>
and then shortly after apple put out the macbook air, which was weak but compitant, and tiny, light, 8 hours of battery life
<G-Mobile>
and then the chromebooks started to happen
<G-Mobile>
and the entire netbook idea collapsed in on itself
<Orum>
like the USSR economy
<G-Mobile>
now everybody makes an air style micro-laptop that's 99.97% able to do whatever 99.9% of users actually need
<Orum>
"air style"?
<G-Mobile>
like the LG gram, or the razer.... uh... some pun about knives...
<G-Mobile>
tiny, light weight, generally sacrificing the right kinds of power but still running well enough to have a good experience
<Orum>
basically everything that falls under the marketing term of "ultrabook"?
<G-Mobile>
depends
<G-Mobile>
ultrabook is a branding term I think by toshiba for their rugged labtops
<G-Mobile>
laptops*
<G-Mobile>
no toshiba is toughbook?
<G-Mobile>
somebody did ultrabook for a super hardened laptop
<Orum>
ultrabook is industry-wide
<G-Mobile>
and it was in the mid 2000nds
<Orum>
as long as you pay the certification fee or whatever
<Orum>
and you have to sign a contract in blood that you'll be Intel's bitch
<Orum>
speaking of Intel... I wish Dell would start offering AMD systems
<G-Mobile>
they are
<Orum>
o rly?
<G-Mobile>
yea they've got an all AMD gaming/pro tower
<Orum>
I bought 3 systems from them a week ago and couldn't find one on their site
<Orum>
ohhh
<G-Mobile>
not sure if you can pay them for it yet but they're showing it off
<Orum>
yeah, I guess we have to wait for the APUs
<G-Mobile>
it looks like a pretty decent monolith full tower, but then they put the bottom diagonal half of it through a cheese grater and filled it with RGB jiz
<Orum>
maybe then they'll actually sell business versions
angavrilov||phone has joined #kspmodders
<Orum>
still, I bet you could outfit a ryzen system with a GPU for less than an equivalent level intel
<Orum>
except at maybe the lowest tier
<G-Mobile>
inspiron 5675
<G-Mobile>
ryzen 3 1200, RX560
<Orum>
> gaming desktop
angavrilov|phone has quit [Ping timeout: 195 seconds]
<Orum>
no thanks
<G-Mobile>
you can upgrade it to a ryzen 5 1400 for 50$
<G-Mobile>
there's no alternate GPU options
<G-Mobile>
so that's 700$ for a built midrange gaming desktop with plenty of expansion space, and a shitty mouse
<Orum>
the problem is at the price points they're offering them at it costs as much as an intel for equivalent CPU perf
<Orum>
which is all I really care about
<G-Mobile>
btw, "VR ready" starts at 1k$
<G-Mobile>
oh, and you can get it with liquid cooling
<G-Mobile>
I feel like i lost track of your position
<Orum>
I want a ryzen system with low-end graphics for less than an intel equivalent
<G-Mobile>
yanno what would be really shitty but just might temporarily make the world suck less; hardware website renderers
icefire has joined #kspmodders
<Orum>
it's called a GPU?
<G-Mobile>
just like how video rendering can be vastly improved by a little decoder chip, maybe websites can run well if we build a fuckin widget to glue on the motherboard that's specially designed to really optimally make websites appear on my fucking screan in a timely maner without gettin all jenky
<G-Mobile>
razer put a fucking clutch on their mouse
<G-Mobile>
I'm running out of vaguely technical juice
kmath has quit [Read error: -0x1: UNKNOWN ERROR CODE (0001)]
<Orum>
so I can shift gears?
<G-Mobile>
just like juicero
<G-Mobile>
it's a button that momentarily changes the DPI
<Orum>
lol
<G-Mobile>
it's a sniper button
<G-Mobile>
but they've called it a clutch
<Orum>
COD kids are probably going crazy over it
<Orum>
I wish someone made a vertical mouse that has more DPI than a dot matrix printer
<G-Mobile>
like the ones where you put your hand handshake style?
<Orum>
yep, I have CTS that kicks up otherwise
<Orum>
stuck on something abysmal like 2600 DPI
<G-Mobile>
have you tried a drawing tablet?
<Orum>
how would that help? I want a mouse, not a tablet or touchpad
<G-Mobile>
2600 isn't that bad most of the time, and I'm not convinced DPI is really that important for gaming, given how it's currently implemented
<Orum>
it's not for gaming, it's for desktop use
<G-Mobile>
then 2600 should be fine
<Orum>
takes a lot of real estate on my mouse pad to move across all my screens
<G-Mobile>
turn up the cursor speed?
<Orum>
it's at max already
<G-Mobile>
turn off acceleration?
<G-Mobile>
whatever, I ain't here to fix your problems
<Orum>
hrm, I'll try that, but I bet it'll m ake it worse
<Orum>
I didn't ask, I just said "I wish..."
<G-Mobile>
my problem is that there's these crazy high DPI mice but the scale of influence is constant
<Orum>
yep, I hate that, when they jump from like 900 to over 9000 DPI
<Orum>
and no steps inbetween
<G-Mobile>
so frequently I'm playing whatever game, planetside 2, minecraft, CATIA, excell, just fuckin clicking on things, and I can see the fucking planck length of cursor motion
<G-Mobile>
why can't I use this extreme DPI to get a really super crazy smooth and sensitive hypersampled cursor position
<Orum>
sounds like they lack accel
<G-Mobile>
accel is always bad for everything forever
<G-Mobile>
it creates an ambiguity of what the result of a motion will be
<Orum>
no
<Orum>
it's fine on a desktop, it sucks in FPS/TPS
<G-Mobile>
I disagree, but that's why it's a setting
<G-Mobile>
I can't use a mouse with acceleration for anything, the cursor is never where I expect it to be
<Orum>
I donno, I have the opposite problem, I need accel on a desktop, and hate it in any games where you control the viewport directly
<G-Mobile>
the problem here is, say you're snipin' no matter how I configure the mouse, or the cursor, or the game, the smallest change in angle is large and noticable
<G-Mobile>
or say I'm using the cursor in a mouse driven app
<Orum>
yep, the razor would be useful then
<G-Mobile>
I can shift the mouse around and click the cursor one pixel to the left, one pixel down, one pixel to the right, and one pixel back up
<G-Mobile>
I see no reason for the mouse to be running on a grid of at least double precision vs the rendered display, but ideally more like 8, and have this insane DPI let me move the mouse in what appears to be a smooth "retina" motion, instead of shifting along rows and columns in a clearly visible grid
kmath has joined #kspmodders
<G-Mobile>
not be running*
<G-Mobile>
kmath left?
<Orum>
it happens
<G-Mobile>
there's no excuse on modern hardware to ever have the precision of motion of whatever the cursor is moving be apparent to the user, it should all move like this is an infinitely precise interface; which they have the DPI to pretend
<G-Mobile>
again, the retina metaphor, a screen of such resolution that the human eye cannot perceive individual pixels
<G-Mobile>
gimmy software retina cursor
<Orum>
I feel like the issue you're complaning about is solved by acceleration
<G-Mobile>
because I sure as fuck do not have the dexterity to do anything useful with 16,000 DPI
<G-Mobile>
that's not even remotely what acceleration does or is used for
<Orum>
if you have to repeatedly adjust the DPI, sure it is
<G-Mobile>
acceleration changes the speed of the mouse so it travels further per dot the faster you move the mouse
<Orum>
right
<G-Mobile>
I don't?
<G-Mobile>
I haven't adjusted the DPI in eight or nine years
<Orum>
okay, so then what's the issue?
<G-Mobile>
I've experimented, and found that the DPI just changes how easy it is for me to move the cursor in a 1px by 1px square
<Orum>
right, that's a product of accel
<G-Mobile>
no
<G-Mobile>
it's unrelated
<Orum>
hardly, you can move the cursor at fine amounts under high DPI simply because of accel
<G-Mobile>
in windows, the cursor speed dictates how many dots of motion from the mouse result in one pixel of cursor motion
<G-Mobile>
the DPI setting on the mouse dictates how many dots of motion the mouse will emit per real world distance
<Orum>
without accel, yes
<Orum>
yes
<G-Mobile>
no, fuck accel, it is not part of this conversation at any point
<G-Mobile>
this is 100% no acceleration at all levels
<G-Mobile>
in all cases no acceleration
<Orum>
ok
<G-Mobile>
acceleration always off in all places
<G-Mobile>
off in windows
<G-Mobile>
off in the mouse driver
<G-Mobile>
off in the other part of windows
<G-Mobile>
off in the game
<Orum>
then there's a direct tie between distance IRL and distance on screen
<G-Mobile>
right, but here's the problem
<Orum>
they are x:y, a fixed ratio
<G-Mobile>
the planck length of cursor motion is 1 pixel
<G-Mobile>
the cursor can't move less than one pixel
<G-Mobile>
pixels, are big
<Orum>
in windows sans-accel? I think so
<G-Mobile>
nope, done, fuck you
<Orum>
so your real problem is pixel pitch?
<G-Mobile>
no, it's that the OS operates the cursor on an arbitrary and irrelevant grid
<Orum>
ok
<G-Mobile>
the only way to get finer control of the mouse is to increase the resolution and then scale the UI to be the same; which for all I know probably also scales the cursor planck length
<G-Mobile>
but the movement of the cursor is arbitrary
<G-Mobile>
there's zero reason for it to be related at all to the screen resolution
<Orum>
so you want cursor movement to be unrelated to screen resolution, but that poses a problem as well
<Orum>
what do you tie it to then, because whatever you chose is just as arbitrary
<G-Mobile>
sure, but so is getting stabbed at KFC
<G-Mobile>
here's the problem: it's a bad arbitrary choice
<G-Mobile>
it's the limit between good choices and all of the bad choices
<Orum>
it's just as good any any other choice
<Orum>
otherwise you need sub-pixel rendering
<G-Mobile>
if the mouse moved on a grid with twice as many rows and columns, my input would be more respected
<Orum>
which isn't possible if you want a HW rendered cursor... or at least not practical
<G-Mobile>
if it was four times as many, it'd be any smoother
<G-Mobile>
there's no reason for the mouse to be a pixel for pixel sprite drawn on screen
<G-Mobile>
make it a little 3D object and render it, it's cheap
<Orum>
well, I suppose if you make the whole screen a DX context or similar you could do sub-pixel rendering
<Orum>
but that's its own clusterfuck
<G-Mobile>
sure, but then you can have a situation where when I move teh mouse, the cursor also moves
<Orum>
it's only cheap if you don't have any other consequences
<G-Mobile>
instead of as is where I can very easily move the mouse and not move the cursor
<Orum>
hrm, I can't do that except for movements so small they're extremely difficult to perform
<Orum>
basically it's negligable
<Orum>
I'm sure the limiting factor is my mouse's DPI
<G-Mobile>
honestly this is even worse with a drawing tablet or touch pad where, on windows, where I frequently have to roll my finger around trying to move far enough to get the fucking thing over the fucking other thing because you sometimes can't turn off acceleration on touch pads and that makes it very difficult to hit mouse intended targets
<G-Mobile>
btw, my mouse has double the DPI of your mouse
<Orum>
yeah, touchpads are a bitch
<Orum>
weird
egg|zzz|egg has left #kspmodders [It's a silly place.]
<Orum>
what res are you at?
<G-Mobile>
1080
<Orum>
hrm, I wonder if windows does some scaling after all then
<Orum>
you're at max DPI and speed?
<G-Mobile>
I'm not gonna claim to remember those
<G-Mobile>
I'm at something that's useful
<G-Mobile>
so here's the fourth dimension of this problem; love
<Orum>
you just lost me
<G-Mobile>
increasing your DPI makes more dots per distance, increasing your speed makes more cursor movement per dot
<G-Mobile>
so increasing DPI /only/ makes the mouse move further on screen for less physical motion
<G-Mobile>
which is dumb and pointless
<Orum>
not if you want that!
<Orum>
that's the problem I have
<G-Mobile>
the only thing that's good for is people with extreme dexterity to move their fingers less for the same result
<Orum>
true
<G-Mobile>
and yea, maybe your DPI is too low for your dexterity
<G-Mobile>
there's definitly an ideal per person
<Orum>
yep
<G-Mobile>
I know for a fact that max DPI on my mouse, at max speed, is too much fast for my dexterity to get much of anything done; and trying just makes my RSI act up
<Orum>
yeah, well 5200 DPI is high even for me
<Orum>
I think around 3.2 to 3.6K is my ideal DPI
<G-Mobile>
razer has a 16,000DPI mouse
<G-Mobile>
why even
<Orum>
that might as well be a scanner
<Orum>
a film scanner at that
<G-Mobile>
the fact that these things corespond directly to this pointless result that doesn't improve my life is stupiid
<G-Mobile>
yea most scanners are 1200
<Orum>
well, it's still frustrating for those of us that want higher DPI and can't get it
<G-Mobile>
600 for fast scans
<G-Mobile>
you could probably pay somebody to mod a gaming mouse's components to fit into the body of a vertical mouse
<Orum>
yeah, if I had a 3d printer I could probably do it myself
<Orum>
but, those are still pricy if you want to get a quality product
<Orum>
we *might* get one at work but it'll probably be a shitty one
<G-Mobile>
anyway, it makes more sense to me to have a mouse with a huge DPI, running at max DPI, and then a slider in the OS that makes the mouse move at the speed you want to have; and these two truths are resolved by creating a "planck grid" for the cursor at whatever scale past the screen resolution results in 1 dot = 1 planck of movement, and the cursor crossing the screen at the speed you desire
<G-Mobile>
basically instead of speed varying the ratio of dots to pixels, it varies the size of the unit
<G-Mobile>
that probably made sense
<Orum>
well that's effectively what the "speed" slider does in Windows, but that's not independent of resolution, AFAIK
<G-Mobile>
the speed slider is like tuning a modulo
<Orum>
o.O
<G-Mobile>
there's hidden numbers, and every time it counts that many dots it knows to shift the cursor in a direction
<Orum>
a divisor you mean?
<G-Mobile>
maybe
<Orum>
oh, wait, I think I know what you mean
<Orum>
you want the internal state to keep track of sub-pixel movement?
<Orum>
which I don't think it does ATM
<G-Mobile>
have you ever seen disney's multi-plate cel animation machine, where it shifts panes of glass back and forth
<Orum>
so you don't have a threshhold below the DPI of the mouse
<Orum>
no
<G-Mobile>
imagine you're the camera, and there's a screen frame in front of you, and then there's a plate of glass with an infinite grid on it moving closer and further away; and the mouse must exist at an intersection on the grid
<G-Mobile>
but also the size of the mouse is fixed
<Orum>
right
<Orum>
SPME is all about this
<Orum>
though it mattered a lot more at lower resolutions
<FoxBot9000>
yt: Walt Disney's MultiPlane Camera (Filmed: Feb. 13, 1957) | fireurgunz
<kmath>
YouTube - Walt Disney's MultiPlane Camera (Filmed: Feb. 13, 1957)
<G-Mobile>
it's a pretty cool contraption, this is how they did foreshortening, characters moving in and out of the distance, depth of field, etc
<Orum>
yep
<Orum>
how did they get the DOF for this?
<G-Mobile>
now imagine you're playing an FPS, and you're experiencing this large cursor planck length, you can only shift your crosshairs back and forth by this small arbitrary angular distance, which should not be respective of pixels; and that distance is exactly wide enough that you can only shoot to either side of a guy's head
<G-Mobile>
you're not allowed to point the crosshair at his head
<Orum>
yes, I know the feeling, I've played ARMA
<G-Mobile>
cuz it's between fuckin pixels
<Orum>
most of that is the fault of the game's engine
<G-Mobile>
now imagine you had a hyperDPI mouse, and the game had a speed slider
<G-Mobile>
I have it in every game I play
<Orum>
which doesn't account for the focal length of the camera
<Orum>
right
<G-Mobile>
instead the paradigm everywhere is that you're basically going to turn the DPI of your mouse down until it's something you can work with; why not take that precision and adjust it's meaning at a very high resolution, so the player always has finesse enough within their capacity to percieve
<G-Mobile>
that said, there were times in KSP where I ran into the camera's angular planck value, it wasn't about my control of it, teh camera was only abe to have so many decimals dedicated to it's qarts, so it couldn't rotate more finely
<Orum>
well, right, this is one of the reasons acceleration exists--you don't need high accuracy at high speed, and you don't need high speed at high accuracy
<G-Mobile>
everything sucks forever
<G-Mobile>
mayybe you don't
<Orum>
well, I turn of accel in most games because it's implemented so poorly that you're better off without it
<Orum>
but if they had a good implementation I'd leave it on
<G-Mobile>
fifth dimension of this problem, ancestry, there's so many parts of the tool chain that can implement acceleration
<G-Mobile>
windows does, razer's software does, razer's mice can, the game might, I think even once steam did
<Orum>
it's basically left up the the app unless your driver does some fuckery that it's not supposed to
<Orum>
(other than DPI changes)
<Orum>
at least for DX contexts
<G-Mobile>
razer definitely has on device acceleration
<Orum>
then it's a naughty driver
<G-Mobile>
no, on device
<Orum>
well a naughty device then
<G-Mobile>
unplug the mouse, take it somewhere else, still does it
<Orum>
either way a driver or device should not implement accel itself
<G-Mobile>
I agree
<G-Mobile>
luckily that can be turned off
<Orum>
it's kind of gross that they even attempt it, but what can you do other than avoid their products
<G-Mobile>
razer makes some good stuff
<G-Mobile>
and by some I mean the nostromo
<Orum>
pfffft
<G-Mobile>
which isn't a mouse
<Orum>
oh, maybe then
<Orum>
their mouses are shit
<G-Mobile>
I gotta go do the work shit, bbl
<Orum>
laters
<Orum>
anyone want to play a game of connect one? you can go first...
Supernovy has quit [Quit: Goodnight.]
<G-Mobile>
Double king to A1
fcbayerndm has joined #kspmodders
<Orum>
king? I think you've got the wrong game
<Greys>
what are you playing classic connect one?
<Greys>
that's so cute
<VITAS>
!tell Greys youre cute :P
<Qboid>
VITAS: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid>
Greys: VITAS left a message for you in #kspmodders [02.09.2017 14:19:23]: "youre cute :P"
* VITAS
goes to wash his mouth with soap
<Orum>
this is like, the most masterbatory game of all time
<Greys>
the original version yea, that's why the meta developed additional rules
<Orum>
well the connect four version requires thought
<Orum>
it's interesting though, if the first player starts outside of the 3 center columns, the second player can force a win, and if he starts anywhere other other than the center, the second player can force a draw
<Greys>
that's why you gotta play ultimate connect N
<Orum>
N-dimensional version of the game?
xEvilReeperx has joined #kspmodders
<Orum>
anyway, does anyone here script for tabletop simulator?
GlassYuri has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Wetmelon has joined #kspmodders
Rokker has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
Rokker has joined #kspmodders
Severian has quit [Ping timeout: 195 seconds]
Severian has joined #kspmodders
Orum has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
armed_troop has quit [Ping timeout: 195 seconds]
armed_troop has joined #kspmodders
BasharMilesTeg_ has joined #kspmodders
BasharMilesTeg has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
xEvilReeperx has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
armed_troop has quit [Quit: Bye]
<Rokker>
VITAS: <3
armed_troop has joined #kspmodders
angavrilov has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
icefire has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]