#principia on 2019-09-02 — irc logs at esper.irclog.whitequark.org

2019-09-01 19:54 UmbralRaptor changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is del Ferro. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, and 1.7.x. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…

00:03 <discord-_> Kracc. — @鹊桥IRC why are you speaking through an apparition

00:03 <discord-_> Kracc. — show yourself, foul beaste

00:22 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin opened pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

00:26 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin edited pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

00:39 * egg stares at Kracc

00:47 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… -

00:47 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3862/

01:00 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Failure. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3862/

01:21 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

01:23 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… -

01:23 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3863/

01:26 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

01:27 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… -

01:29 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin edited pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

01:30 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

01:31 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… -

01:55 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3863/

01:55 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3864/

02:10 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] david-wm-sanders starred Principia - https://git.io/fjtt6

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02:27 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3864/

02:27 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3865/

02:59 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3865/

03:21 <discord-_> neph. — I swear it's like a twice a week thing

03:21 <discord-_> neph. — I guess people don't know what irc is any more, smh my head

03:25 <UmbralRaptor> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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04:24 <discord-_> The Destroyer. — Is there a good video/introduction to transfers other than hohmann? In base ksp hohmann is basically

04:24 <discord-_> The Destroyer. — @neph I remember the days before discord, when KSP was just the old forum and the IRC chat.

04:52 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy reviewed pull request #2322 commit - https://git.io/fjpzO

04:54 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy reviewed pull request #2322 commit - https://git.io/fjpz3

04:55 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy closed pull request #2320: Modernize the code of our scripts - https://git.io/fjpcL

04:55 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy pushed 4 commits to master [+0/-0/±14] https://git.io/fjpzs

04:55 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy b8a5f6f - Clean our C# scripts.

04:55 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy e3b8b78 - Pprincipia.

04:56 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy 48a1e09 - After egg's review.

04:56 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy c5a4878 - Merge pull request #2320 from pleroy/Scripts Modernize the code of our scripts

07:07 <discord-_> neph. — Ooh, Principia + KS3P looks badass af

07:07 <discord-_> neph. — https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480397772248580098/617978837443018752/screenshot142.png

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07:50 <discord-_> Space Dwarf. — Wait what the heck?

07:50 <discord-_> Space Dwarf. — That’s really pretty what is that

07:55 <discord-_> Standecco. — KS3P with the bloom quite high

07:56 <discord-_> Space Dwarf. — Not heard of KS3P, that a graphics pack?

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08:52 <discord-_> Standecco. — basically, post processing for ksp

09:53 <discord-_> Damien. — @neph haha yeah I noticed that when I used ks3p

09:53 <discord-_> Damien. — I hat to remove it

09:53 <discord-_> Damien. — I had to remove it (edited)

09:59 <discord-_> PataSolar. — damn. KS3P is next on my list. can you play around with the configurations (what you did with bloom etc.) while in game or do you have to restart?

10:03 <discord-_> Damien. — yeah if you reduce bloom it's not bad but the fact that principia orbits aren't a perfect circle (they're an overlapping spiral thing) means that the bloom overlaps and stacks with itself

10:04 <discord-_> Damien. — on stock it looks fine because the bloom effect is only applied once

10:05 <discord-_> egg. — glowing noodles

10:06 <discord-_> PataSolar. — i personally welcome the glowing noodles, I'm looking forward to them

10:18 <discord-_> Damien. — wait until you get it at something unstable like a lagrange point

10:19 <discord-_> Damien. — the floating point errors turn it into a light show

10:25 <discord-_> egg. — what floating point errors

10:27 <discord-_> egg. — @Damien stop waving the word floating point around when roundoff error is not even at play; the movement of the prediction is merely the result of the truncation error of the integrators, combined with a large Ляпунов exponent

10:30 <discord-_> Damien. — fair enough, I've always known flickery orbits (in stock, not principia) referred to as floating point errors so it's just habit

10:30 <discord-_> Damien. — thanks for the correction though

10:31 <discord-_> egg. — I mean, floating point arithmetic is involved, but it's really not the direct culprit here

10:31 <discord-_> egg. — @Damien not about the prediction plots, but a semi-related discussion of error: https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/wiki/On-the-dynamical-stability-of-Principia's-modified-Jool-system#global-error

10:32 <discord-_> Damien. — the truncation error of the integrators, combined with a large Ляпунов exponent turn it into a light show (edited)

10:32 <discord-_> Damien. — edited my comment to look smarter than I am 🙂

10:32 <discord-_> Damien. — the truncation error of the integrators, combined with a large Ляпунов exponent turns it into a light show (edited)

10:32 <discord-_> egg. — haha

10:33 <discord-_> egg. — @Damien I mean, really the cause of the wobbliness isn't that relevant, it's just "the fact that the prediction wiggles in unstable places"

10:33 <discord-_> Damien. — checkmate egg, I'm the principia dev now

10:33 <discord-_> egg. — https://camo.githubusercontent.com/c58fff25f56dab409e724fb090d4a31cbcf18b48/687474703a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f575956547a734d2e6a7067

10:33 <discord-_> egg. — all hail retrobop

10:38 <discord-_> Damien. — make all orbits retro except bop for a laugh

10:40 <discord-_> Damien. — just sneak it in in the next release but tell no one

10:40 <discord-_> Standecco. — you can toggle ks3p with alt+3

10:42 <discord-_> Sir Mortimer. — i swear to god, one day @egg is going to type chinese, russian, latin and arabic letters in one sentence.

10:44 <discord-_> Standecco. — don't give him ideas

10:47 <discord-_> egg. — no greek?

10:47 <discord-_> Sir Mortimer. — that's reserved for formulas.

10:47 <discord-_> egg. — I mean, there are greeks too

10:48 <discord-_> egg. — https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/releases/tag/2019020421-%CE%95%E1%BD%90%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B7%CF%82

10:48 <discord-_> Sir Mortimer. — the fact that i can read that name is mildly shocking to me

10:49 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eimyss starred Principia - https://git.io/fjprJ

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11:02 <discord-_> Standecco. — there's also ευδοξος

11:02 <discord-_> Standecco. — eudoxos

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14:21 <UmbralRaptop> There sadly haven't been any releases using hieroglyphs or cuneiform, though

14:44 <discord-_> Standecco. — I could imagine why

15:07 <discord-_> Sir Mortimer. — Didn't the mayans have some noteable mathematicians? They *did* come up with a formidable calendar after all, but then again there is no mayan in the unicde range (yet)

16:20 <discord-_> egg. — well, having mathematics and having people whose name is known are different things

16:21 <discord-_> egg. — I think we may have the name of one chaldean mathematician maybe

16:21 <discord-_> egg. — (Kidinnu)

16:21 <discord-_> egg. — but it's not clear how it's spelled

16:22 <discord-_> egg. — maybe 𒆠𒁷𒉡 or 𒆠𒁲𒉡

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17:20 <discord-_> Sir Mortimer. — that’s going to be a fun version 🙂

17:21 <UmbralRaptop> Has there been a release that used characters on the SMP or SIP yet?

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17:35 <discord-_> egg. — nah

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18:25 <discord-_> Standecco. — literally unplayable

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19:05 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

19:07 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… -

19:07 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3866/

19:15 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin edited pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

19:23 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Failure. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3866/

19:26 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

19:27 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… -

19:27 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3867/

19:53 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Failure. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3867/

20:08 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

20:09 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… -

20:09 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3868/

20:23 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

20:25 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… -

20:25 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin reviewed pull request #2322 commit - https://git.io/fjpy9

20:28 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy opened pull request #2323: Make the iterators more STL-like - https://git.io/fjpy7

20:29 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… -

20:29 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy edited pull request #2323: Make the discrete trajectory iterators more STL-like - https://git.io/fjpy7

20:41 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3868/

20:41 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

20:41 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3869/

20:43 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… -

20:47 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin edited pull request #2322: Use structured bindings when iterating on maps - https://git.io/fjp09

20:48 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin edited pull request #2322: Use structured bindings - https://git.io/fjp09

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21:13 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3869/

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21:30 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #2323: Make the discrete trajectory iterators more STL-like - https://git.io/fjpy7

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21:46 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] pleroy labeled pull request #2322: Use structured bindings - https://git.io/fjp09

21:46 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin closed pull request #2322: Use structured bindings - https://git.io/fjp09

21:46 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin pushed 16 commits to master [+0/-0/±58] https://git.io/fjp90

21:46 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin 8877a6c - use structured bindings in some obvious and easy places

21:46 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin 0c621ca - vessels

21:46 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin 359ff15 - more vessels

21:46 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] ... and 13 more commits.

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22:18 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3871/

22:22 <_whitenotifier-cd19> [Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #2323: Make the discrete trajectory iterators more STL-like - https://git.io/fjpy7

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22:26 <discord-_> egg. — There's Naburimannu too

22:26 <discord-_> egg. — cc mofh

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22:45 <discord-_> egg. — apparently the mention of Naburimannu is in VAT 209, ACT 18

22:51 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — "I chose a left handed coordinate system, in part out of personal preference."

22:51 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — -Alex St. John, lead developer of DirectX

22:51 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — .

22:51 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — https://web.archive.org/web/20130725044111/http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/2013/07/22/the-evolution-of-direct3d/

22:51 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. —

22:51 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — so the reason KSP, and Unity uses a left handed coordinate system was a matter of p e r s o n a l p r e f e r e n c e

22:51 <discord-_> egg. — Kidinnu is ᵐki-din-nu in ACT 123a = BM 45849 + BM 46237, but ᵐki-di-nu in BM 36304, assuming that's the same person of course

22:51 <discord-_> egg. — @Acer_Saccharum nono, KSP uses both, that's where the insanity is

22:51 <discord-_> egg. — it has a bunch of APIs that are right handed for no reason

22:52 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — that's just ridiculous

22:52 <discord-_> egg. — that's KSP

22:52 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — well I applaud your effort to work through that insanity then

22:52 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — how does a decision like that even end up going through though

22:53 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — surely some subordinate developers would raise hell at that decision

22:54 <discord-_> egg. — aaaaa In No. 122 (Zo) appears the name of Kidin, called Kidinnu in No. 123a (Zka)

22:56 <discord-_> egg. — @Acer_Saccharum it dates back to the early days, so I don't think there is so much a conscious decision (or subordinate developers) as opposed to the formless spaghetti floating in the void

22:57 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — It seems to have come from the consensus that into the screen should be positive, while screen upwards should be y and screen rightwards should be x

22:59 <discord-_> egg. — you mean the left-handed convention, sure; but that's not really relevant to the mixing of both in KSP

23:00 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — yes that was my point there

23:00 <discord-_> egg. — that has not come from a consensus so much as a deranged mind

23:00 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — I had hoped it would be at least consistent in the wrong handedness

23:00 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — clockwise being positive just feels so deeply wrong

23:01 <discord-_> lamont. — well the Orbit API is right handed because someone didn't want to solve kepler's problem in a left handed coordinate system

23:02 <discord-_> egg. — @lamont that makes no sense though, as you know

23:02 <discord-_> egg. — nothing depends on handedness in there

23:02 <discord-_> lamont. — eventually it does get weird though

23:03 <discord-_> egg. — I mean, you'll get left-handed elements

23:03 <discord-_> lamont. — ```

23:03 <discord-_> lamont. — // This is the ZXZ intrinsic rotation, converting Vector3d.right (pointing at the periapsis) from the perifocal system. Thus, the

23:03 <discord-_> lamont. — // order of applying the angles is backwards. However, the negative sign for the rotation angle is cancelled out by AngleAxis being

23:03 <discord-_> lamont. — // a left-handed rotation, so the angles here are positive. Argh.

23:03 <discord-_> lamont. — //

23:03 <discord-_> lamont. — Vector3d eT = QuaternionD.AngleAxis(LANT * UtilMath.Rad2Deg, Vector3d.forward) * QuaternionD.AngleAxis(incT * UtilMath.Rad2Deg, Vector3d.right) * QuaternionD.AngleAxis(ArgPT * UtilMath.Rad2Deg, Vector3d.forward) * Vector3d.right * eccT;

23:03 <discord-_> lamont. — eT = eT.xzy;

23:04 <discord-_> lamont. — ```

23:05 <discord-_> egg. — I mean, that comment is primarily that untyped active rotations are insane

23:05 <discord-_> egg. — or are they passive? who knows

23:05 * UmbralRaptop slaps Unity around with an electron

23:08 <discord-_> Sumguy. — I read that as erection

23:08 <discord-_> Sumguy. — just sayin

23:08 <discord-_> egg. — @lamont yeah the thing is if you do it left-handed you're going to get different values for the elements (your elements will be left-handed), and converting that at the last moment is mildly annoying

23:08 <discord-_> egg. — probably less annoying than mixing handednesses though

23:08 <discord-_> lamont. — yeah, all i know is that next time i'm doing physics in right handed ECI

23:09 <discord-_> Sumguy. — right-hand rule is love

23:09 <discord-_> egg. — (anyway, Principia solves that by using different types for different reference systems, and distinguishing bivectors from vectors)

23:09 * UmbralRaptop spikes sumguy's water with cabergoline

23:09 <discord-_> lamont. — and if i write anything like a mechjeb-for-KSP2 that it'll internally be all right handed, and defend itself from unity

23:09 <UmbralRaptop> … wait, that's a fun thing

23:09 <discord-_> egg. — (that also finds bugs, because if you mix vectors and bivectors your physics is bad to start with)

23:09 <discord-_> lamont. — yeah

23:09 <discord-_> lamont. — strongly typed vectors would be good

23:10 <discord-_> egg. — @lamont clearly you should write your next guidance thingy atop the Principia framework

23:10 * discord-_ egg. — points at the /topic_

23:10 <discord-_> egg. — @lamont speaking of guidance, how goes the J2

23:11 <discord-_> lamont. — still stalled out

23:11 <discord-_> egg. — STALL STALL *beep* STALL STALL *beep*

23:12 <discord-_> lamont. — pull up! pull up!

23:15 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — thirty

23:15 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — twenty

23:15 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — retard

23:16 <discord-_> egg. — https://twitter.com/bofh453/status/1103500290773397504

23:16 <kmath> <bofh453> <@me_irl> yeah thats the one i call "GPWS doesnt tell me how to fly my plane. i will fly my plane as i c fit"

23:16 <discord-_> lamont. — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgkD1scIkKw

23:16 <kmath> YouTube - Boeing - Pull Up Alarm

23:16 <discord-_> lamont. — (volume alert)

23:17 <discord-_> DRVeyl. — jfc, you're stalling, don't pull up!

23:17 <discord-_> Acer_Saccharum. — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9svSePWwisQ

23:17 <kmath> YouTube - Being called a retard 4 times a flight....Awesome!

23:20 <discord-_> egg. — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKi87fMla7A

23:20 <kmath> YouTube - Airbus A320 High Altitude Full Stall and Upset Recovery (UPRT)

23:38 <discord-_> lamont. — @egg https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/ARITH_17.pdf