egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Does principa include orbital precession?
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<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Not sure if the mod is installed wrong but my circular 700km orbit of 98* inclination is not preccessing
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ I originally got an error about C++ redistributables when I first launched after installing the mod so I closed the game, reinstalled c++ redistributables, and then restarted my computer. Loading ksp back up and I get no errors, but my sun-synchronous orbit as outlined above isn't precessing. What's going on and how can I troubleshoot?
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Not sure if the mod is installed wrong but my circular 700km orbit of 98* inclination is not preccessing to stay sun-synchronous
<queqiao-> ⟨Joshua Wood⟩ what does the orbit readout in the principia window say about your orbit?
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<queqiao-> ⟨Joshua Wood⟩ +"orbit analysis"
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ How does the orbit look in earth centred sun aligned?
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ And yeah, check the analyser
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ I think principia just isn't loading, I don't have that window
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Principia folder is in my gamedata folder as it should be
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Крылов is out there! Yey.
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Should I be using a special version of principia for ksp 1.12.3?
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ how come so many people ignore the "move install outside of Steam" instruction?
<queqiao-> ⟨ezsnack⟩ your install is in steam folder which is a mistake already for the express install
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ I use my steam folder. It's fine
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ I renamed it, it's effectively the same thing
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Yeah
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ how come so many people don't understand Steam auto-sync?
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Why is this even a thing? This step isn't necessary.
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ They've renamed the folder. Steam didn't know it exists
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ * doesn't
<queqiao-> ⟨ezsnack⟩ steam cloud can override your stuff
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ /steamapps folder is the root of Steam control and it syncs contents of that folder
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Sure, but it's not just going to arbitraily edit a folder
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Users of Steam can do mess their installation, not Steam. The step is overstep from Principia maintainers on what intsructions the user requires.
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ It syncs saves and updates games. What else would it affect
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ I've got 6 ksp installations in my steamapps folder
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ I've seen sync of the GameData folder with older versions of mods in
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Insturctions of Principia are and should only be: Copy Principia folder into Gamedata. Anything else: "troubleshotting or come cry here".
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Okay welp since I created this install like two days ago and haven't updated any of my mods since, that shouldn't be an issue
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ * Instructions of Principia are and should only be: Copy Principia folder into Gamedata. Anything else: "troubleshooting
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ That's not what steam does
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ njd80 feel free to post some proof
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Steam syncs cloud saves, that's it
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ -are and
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ So.. is there a specific version of principia that's needed for RO 1.12.3?
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Check the principia readme bit I don't believe so
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ * but
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ > RO 1.12.3That version doesn't exist. Do you mean KSP 1.12.3 ? Why not using latest verison of KSP 1.12.5?
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ within the last week in the RO channel we've seen a user who suffered from Steam including an older version of mods in the Steam install folder
<queqiao-> I think - that people who are smart wrote the install instructions
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ +of RO
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ * instructions. Good luck fixing your issue
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Because the tutorial says to use 1.12.3
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Like, it specifically says to use 1.12.3 instead of the latest version
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ I see! This is also another overstep from RP-1. Just use the latest version of KSP.
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ * RP-1 instructions.
<queqiao-> ⟨ezsnack⟩ this is also in the express install wiki lol suggested version is 1.12.3
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Steam does two things:
<queqiao-> Updates games (this can break an install if the game becomes a version your mods don't support).
<queqiao-> Backs up cloud saves.
<queqiao-> It doesn't back up anything else. Can you imagine what a mess it would be if steam backed up data just because it was in a steam library? I wouldn't be paying for dropbox every month that's for sure
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ it syncs the game code
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Can I upgrade an existing install and/or move saves across installs?
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ * code. which includes GameData
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ That I don't know.
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ It'll only sync the folders that it recognizes as games, which are ones it creates or ones that you import specifically
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ You have no clue what you're talking about. It backs up saves if the game supports the feature. It also keeps a log of the files in a release of a game so it can do version control. It has no idea what else is in a library that you put there. It also doesn't see the games code
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ taking a long time and long road just so that you don't have to follow an install step that takes 30 seconds
<queqiao-> ⟨Joshua Wood⟩ It *should* only sync the folders that it recognizes as games
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ I mean -- the point is there's no chance that's a root cause of the issue
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ This save is only like 2 days old, I haven't updated any of the mods in that time
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ It downloads games from its servers, and notes the md5 hash of every file it downloads. It doesn't work in reverse. If you verify your game it checks the list of files and checks the hashes. Anything missing or broken it will redownload
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ It definitely doesn't back up files you create to its servers (except saves). Can you imagine the exploits that would exist if it backed up random files
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Renaming a game folder is a perfectly valid method of creating a non-steam version of an install
<queqiao-> ⟨Joshua Wood⟩ I've had games in my steam folder not recognise mods and load them, then just moving the whole install and launching it suddenly works
<queqiao-> ⟨Joshua Wood⟩ * or
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Alright, I'll try that just to discount it as a possibility
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ njd80 if you don't believe what I'm saying, install some mods on a steam install ksp, then delete some, and verify the install. Steam doesn't care about anything to do with mods and will only verify the files rebated to the game itself
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ * related
<queqiao-> ⟨Joshua Wood⟩ *should* only verify the files related to the game itself
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ I can see where we've diverged - I said Sync and you read Backup. they are different. Lets stop this now
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Even when it should only, this should be in a troubleshooting sections and not part of the necessary steps to have a proper and clean installation of RP-1/Principia.
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ It doesn’t know anything else exists. It keeps a log of files it installed. It checks that list when verifying
<queqiao-> ⟨Joshua Wood⟩ it takes seconds to do it and can solve a whole host of problems, everyone should move it
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ The only thing steam syncs is saves, and only for games that support cloud saves
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Disagree here... that's why I didn't do it and that's why nobody does it.
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ To sync, you need a backup to sync to/from
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ Lets stop this now
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ * ~nobody~ barely anyone
<queqiao-> ⟨butcher6994⟩ I run from steam, YOLO
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ I'm still pondering how abusable steam cloud would be if it synced based on whatever you put in a game folder vs whatever specific files the developer told it to sync
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Brb saving terabytes of videos and raw photos to the steam cloud
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ you have misunderstood my point - probably becasue I expained it badly.
<queqiao-> that isn't what i'm suggesting - I don't mean it backs up your stuff, I mean it syncs your install to the game base code on its servers
<queqiao-> ⟨butcher6994⟩ Steam cloud has capped storage
<queqiao-> Read this please
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ The developers set what userdata is synced. It's basically save games and settings
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Mods are often big, userdata is small
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ like I said, not what I meant
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ That fact alone means that syncing mods would never work
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ 'Syncs your install to the game base code' makes no sense. Steam downloads files, not code
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Again, that would be highly broken and exploitable if it did
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ if your install gets corrupted or you change a file, it syncs with the game base code and re-downloads it. If the language is not clear I'm sorry
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ It redownloads specific files. If a game has files 1-5 with md5 codes 1-5 (ignore the fact md5 codes are super long irl) and a file on your pc is either missing, or has the wrong md5 code, it redownloads that file
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ No code is involved
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ what about the code in the files?
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Please google what source code is vs binary files
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ it is code though>
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ The only entities that can edit the code is the developer
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ They upload compiled binary files
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ So i moved my install outside of the steam directory to the root of my drive, principia still isn't loading
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Those files are what steam downloads to your computer
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ I can't figure out how to word it properly to explain myself
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ so I'm going to stop
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ I don't think this is an issue with explaining, I think this is an issue with misunderstanding
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Can anyone using principia and ksp 1.12.3 tell me what version they're on to see if it's an issue with the latest version?
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ I understand just fine. Good luck
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ I'm not near my PC but out of curiosity, try removing the full stop/period from your folder name
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ It may not be the issue but worth a try
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ The only error I can see regarding principia in my ksp.log is:
<queqiao-> [ERR 05:53:26.929] Failed to load assembly F:\Kerbal Space Program.realism\GameData\Principia\x64\serialization.dll:
<queqiao-> System.BadImageFormatException: Format of the executable (.exe) or library (.dll) is invalid.
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Try redownloading it
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ It may be corrupt
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ I did that already, and the principia FAQ's specifically say thats an expected error
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Is anyone else using principia with 1.12.3, and if so what version of principia?
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ I'm just booting up my laptop to see what I'm on
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Are principia mechanics disabled in rp-1
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ * rp-1's vab simulation mode or something?
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ That's what I've been using to test
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ I can't figure out how to word it properly to explain myself to you. So I'm going to stop
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ it is code though
<queqiao-> ⟨butcher6994⟩ From Steam's POV is just binary blobs of data. It doesn't know if it's code.
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Or does it not work on an existing savegame?
<queqiao-> ⟨Joshua Wood⟩ not having principia only in sims would cause many problems, it works on existing saves fine
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ I know! I meant the entire code base but explained it badly
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ * base(which of course will be partly binary files)
<queqiao-> ⟨butcher6994⟩ .popvapor you should be able to tell almost immediately in SIM based on the navball. But also in space centre view you should have the principal window available.
<queqiao-> ⟨butcher6994⟩ * Principia
<queqiao-> ⟨butcher6994⟩ It's only base game though, no mods
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ It's not working on my existing savegame, if I create a new savegame it works
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ * pops up right away
<queqiao-> ⟨.popvapor⟩ Not sure why that is or if it's fixable
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Yeah, steam knows what steam installed. That's it. And steam cloud knows what files each game makes as userdata, and only if the game dev tells it so
<queqiao-> ⟨njd80⟩ again - I know and explained myself badly. I'm sorry for derailing this channel
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ .popvapor my ksp is loading with the latest principia. I'll check ksp version in a sec
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Ah I'm on 1.12.5
<queqiao-> ⟨Damien⟩ Does work though, but it should also work on 1.12.3
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Figuring out how Steam works isn't on topic here, please get back to cats and orbit analysis
<queqiao-> ⟨Joshua Wood⟩ people advising new players to not follow the install instructions is on topic
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Being in the steam directory is not a problem for Principia, and moving out of there is not part of the Principia installation instructions. Off to #ro-support or #rp1-support with that part of the question, please.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ This is odd. Could 1. open the new savegame where it works, check that it works, 2. go back to the main menu but not close the game, 3 open the savegame where it does not work, check that it does not work, 4. close the game, 5. post your KSP.log and latest glog INFO? (In a GitHub issue please).
<queqiao-> ⟨sichelgaita⟩ If someone bothered to read the README on GitHub they would see the sentence "‎Download it here for 1.8.1, 1.9.1, 1.10.1, 1.11.0, 1.11.1, 1.11.2, and *1.12.2 to 1.12.5*." So yes, 1.12.3 works.
<queqiao-> ⟨sichelgaita⟩ Also, please make sure you use ‎Крылов, no support for older versions.
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Thanks for the release!
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Is there any place in github with Release notes or somehing easily consumable?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ (which is linked from the README, which you should read.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ * read.)
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