egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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[OSACA] pleroy opened pull request #25: Fix comisd and friends on Zen3, and properly reorder operands for instructions with 3 or more operands - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/OSACA/pull/25
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[OSACA] pleroy closed pull request #25: Fix comisd and friends on Zen3, and properly reorder operands for instructions with 3 or more operands - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/OSACA/pull/25
<queqiao->
⟨maxsimal⟩ Hibernating for the winter with me
<paculino>
My spine hurts seeing that
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ It’s supposed to be a situational thing for when you need to look at combinations of reference frames and trajectories that make the screen hard to read. Since you are supposed to frequently change reference frames, it makes no sense to retain it. Given some comments on your recent issue, I suspect that you are using it for performance reason. We don’t want people to do that, we want people to complain loudly that the noodles are...
<queqiao->
... too slow so that we make the noodle faster and that they can then bask in the glorious noodles.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ * reasons.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (I suspect we are drawing the lines with more points than is really needed; this could be made a setting to allow for ever so slightly more angular lines and improved performance.)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ In particular, we have seen people disabling equipotentials in precisely the situations where the equipotentials are useful; so people are using declutter more than they should already.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ It’s supposed to be a situational thing for when you need to look at combinations of reference frames and trajectories that make the screen hard to read. Since you are supposed to frequently change reference frames, it makes no sense to retain it. Given some comments on your recent issue, I suspect that you are using it for performance reasons. We don’t want people to do that, we want people to complain loudly that the noodles are...
<queqiao->
... too slow so that we make the noodles faster and that they can then bask in the glorious noodles.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (I suspect we are drawing the lines with more points than is really needed; this could be made a setting to allow for ever so slightly more angular lines and improved performance on less beefy machines.)
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ It is for performance reasons indeed but having to unclutter all the planets i dont care about every mission is annoying as well. Most missions only have 1 target i dont need to know where all the other planets will be. It would make more sense if it defaults to off and you have to enable them imo than the other way around
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<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ You don’t need to know about other planets, but in most situations they’re harmless except for the aforementioned performance problems.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Exceptions include, e.g., long-duration ECEF, where the solar system will actually fill the screen.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ its the same situation for history lenght but that is saved between scene changes, all i want is for the declutter buttons to be saved too tbf :v
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ -for
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ +state
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Yes but we don’t want you to declutter if at all possible, because that means you don’t see things that are potentially useful and that we put years of work into showing.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ ezsnack Out of curiosity, what kind of machine are you using? Your bug report about requesting a 25000 day long burn shows that the flight plan gave up after 22 h in LEO, which is very much fine on the machines we use for KSP, but then not everyone plays with a W-2275 and an RTX 3070
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (or a 5965WX, in sichelgaita’s case.)
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ Judging on most peoples screenshot i would say that most people plays on worse hardware than me lol
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ * play
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Before 2022 we were on some Sandy Bridge i7, so we used to be very much on the low end
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ I see your point but i still unclutter every scene change so i dont see a reason just to not make it easier. Its not like forcing me into clicking twice will make me accept suboptimal framerate :v
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ My point is that the frame rate should not be suboptimal. That is the problem, not the declutter button not persisting.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Now, the problem is that if you have learned to declutter every scene changed, regardless of performance, you might still do that after we fix the problem.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ If you set up the visuals to max out your hardware anything more will always cause performance issues. And im not gonna play the game at lower graphics either, principia has a performance cost that i will happily deal with but i still wanna minimize it
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (and other users might do that, too.)
<queqiao->
⟨siimav⟩ (Other than the sensible amount of cores, that CPU does have pretty trash single thread perf)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Please don’t speculate on where the performance cost is. We draw far more points than is necessary to get good-looking lines.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (and we don’t depend on the graphics settings.)
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ Nooo i mean, every user is gonna setup their game to look good based on hardware. In the map scene principia is an added load that isnt there otherwise and will lag no matter what if you are already maxed out. Unless your specs are so overkill like that chinese guy in this years ris planning 400d transfer at 1mm precision
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ > In the map scene principia is an added load that isnt there otherwise and will lag no matter what if you are already maxed out.Yes but whether the marginal cost of more lines is noticeable will depend on how costly the lines are.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ Or just less line...
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ * lines...
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Sigh. What I am saying is that for the cost of currently drawing one line, we should be able to draw at least ten lines. This changes what is acceptable in terms of performance.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ And im saying it doesnt because i will still unclutter to gain everything thats gainable
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ You don’t need to gain everything that’s gainable, otherwise you wouldn’t play Principia at all. There is some cost that you are willing to accept.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ Yea but i will minimize it which means only showing whats relevant
<queqiao->
⟨kuzinat0r⟩ So it lags not because you calculate the whole system's state 10 years ahead, but just because you draw 10 years worth of trajectories?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Calculating is somewhere between cheap and already done.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ You can see the difference if you switch from inertial to fixed with a moderately long flight plan. Same duration but fixed lags a lot
<queqiao->
⟨kuzinat0r⟩ I'd personally prefer having the ability to reduce lag by trading some lines' smoothness. For example, trying to hit a jovian moon from the earth orbit is a whooping 3-5 fps experience.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ The lines are smoother than you should be able to see, at the moment. This is entirely silly.
<queqiao->
⟨Joshua Wood⟩ unticking unpinned celestials is basically unticking a "please lag my game" button every time i open principia menu personally
<queqiao->
i get like 20fps with it ticked and smooth 60 with it off
<queqiao->
⟨sichelgaita⟩ And that's exactly the problem: all the UI, including plotting, happens on a single thread.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ I bet you are using fixed or body parent reference frames
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Just JCI on a flight to Jupiter will do that, too, with the moons.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ You can just lose precision and keep the same steps, how? The rendering of the lines is what lags for me
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Yes, right now there is no setting to make the rendering faster and (imperceptibly uglier)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ * (imperceptibly) uglier
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ Maybe make it uglier the further away in the future it goes?
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ But this doesnt change my point that i will unclutter no matter what, can i have it easier pls ;3
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Could be an idea, maybe not make it smoother than your screen can render and your eye can see, to start with
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ You are doing a good job of convincing me that decluttering was a mistake to start with.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ Its literally the best feature, enjoy principia physics at conics framerates lol
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ If you make the lines lighter to render i will just increase the graphics settings and unclutter :v
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ If, once performance concerns are dealt with, you (and others, again we have seen people get rid of equipotentials when going to Lagrange points, which is what equipotentials are for!) get rid of things that we spent the past five years developing, we can just go do something else instead of working on this mod.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ Thats not my point tho, ive never once used the pulsating rotating frame but i did try it and its extremely laggy indeed.
<queqiao->
My point is hiding non mission critical stuff like the position of venus if im going to the moon...
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ I dont need it, i dont care about it and its taking my fps. Why would i ever keep it up
<queqiao->
⟨kuzinat0r⟩ I disagree. If you open the map view, there would be nothing there)
<queqiao->
⟨kuzinat0r⟩ * you'd
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ Thats what my map looks like always, 0 history full unclutter, just a single purple noodle
<queqiao->
⟨kuzinat0r⟩ Well, I don't wanna my map view to look like by default)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Hmm. There may be a point to be made that not all of the settings under the declutter button should work in the same way.
<queqiao->
⟨kuzinat0r⟩ +that
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ I dont want it to look like that by defaults, just that the settings are saved so everyone can have it like they want without clicking
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ * default,
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (That is, you are hitting declutter not because « my screen is full of lines, I don’t understand what I am seeing, aaaaaa help », which was the idea for that buton, but because it’s a bigger thing to click to specifically hide the other celestials, not the other things that it hides.)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Frankly maybe the equipotentials shouldn’t be declutterable at all, there is no reason to pick the **L frame unless they are relevant.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ yes its easier to click unclutter once and re enable markers than to unclutter both celestials and equipotentials. but why do i need to click at all just save it!!
<queqiao->
⟨nazfib⟩ I do think it is silly that you can disable the equipotential lines in the Lagrange frames, since that's literally the most important feature of that frame; it definitely should not be disabled by default, or persistently.
<queqiao->
As for seeing other planets' orbits in frames where they are not really relevant (e.g. the Moon's orbit in a JCI frame, or Venus' orbit in ECEF, I can see the argument for having the declutter persistent for those. I would not declutter by default though; seeing all the planets move around the Earth in ECEF the first time you open the map view is a great reminder to new players that everything is plotted in a reference frame, which the player must...
<queqiao->
... select and switch to show what they want to see.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ also this should really be saved...
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Again, because the intended usage was not for it to be a setting, but to be a panic button. It is specifically inspired but the ALL(égement) button on the HUD of the Mirage 2000C, which is there for « there is too much crap on my HUD, I can’t see where I’m flying/shooting, get it out of my face ».
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I think this makes sense. Maybe save it by reference frame and vessel, or something.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ That is saved by vessel.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I suppose we could add a way to change the default, but that seems tricky.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ * tedious.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ yea but every time i launch a new flight i need to shorten the prediction and the steps as soon as im in orbit to see whats going on.
<queqiao->
a possible way could be that the settings you put in KSC scene become the default ones that all new vessels have
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ ops sorry ping
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (That’s fine, I’m used to IRC where there are no replies, so that you would keep mentioning people to make it possible to follow the thread)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ As I was digging in the logs the other day siimav pointed out how pingy I was back in 2019 when I joined here
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ anyways heres a very short video of my struggles, every time i launch a new vessel...
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Yes, I was thinking of that. Easy in terms of not changing the UI, not necessarily very discoverable. Maybe we can sligthly tweak the text. It is true that right now we just have empty boxes in KSC which is not very useful.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ another thing that i hate is that principia is so far down in the toolbar and you have to scroll :VVVV
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I see a cat is asking for hotkeys
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Surely so that siimav can walk on the keyboard to bring up the Principia window.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ egg said that a hotkey is not easy to implement but surely moving the principia window up the toolbar is? 🙏
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (Wait, I don’t think I have seen photos of siimav’s cat here, aside from the profile picture.)
<queqiao->
⟨siimav⟩ Upload pictures of myself?
<queqiao->
⟨siimav⟩ Never looked into this myself but there's a bunch of mods that need such a feature.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ You had asked for hotkeyS back in November. That sounded extremely annoying because there are a lot of things you would need to choose to add hotkeys for, some interface to configure them, etc. Different story if it is just the one. Reordering the toolbar, on the other hand, is beyond my ken: the toolbar belongs to KSP.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ * one to bring up the main window.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Hardcoding it can be problematic when two mods have decided to use the same key though (I have been annoyed by Kerbalism using a key I have bound to some common thing, I forget which).
<queqiao->
⟨siimav⟩ True. And 'P' is already in use by AA.
<queqiao->
⟨kuzinat0r⟩ No? It's configurable
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ but P is deefault and AA is express install so its not optimal
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Besides configurability, it would be good to pick a default that doesn’t clash with the defaults of mods that we expect users to have.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Any free keys in an express install ?
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ maybe alt+p? still easier than scrolling down and easy to remember
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ right alt+p :V
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ jk its bound to parallax already 😐
<queqiao->
⟨siimav⟩ Oh I know! Make people recite some ancient babylon glyph with their cursor to summon the Principia UI!
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ 𒀭𒊺𒉀𒍠𒊩
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ +(transliteration: ᵈnisaba za₃-mim translation: praised be Nisaba (the godess of writing))
<queqiao->
⟨kuzinat0r⟩ Or just add support for blizzy's toolbar mod)
<queqiao->
⟨kuzinat0r⟩ Principia isn't listed here
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ i dont want more UI!!!!
<queqiao->
⟨kuzinat0r⟩ More UI or scrolling every time)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I remember the distant days when stock had no toolbar and blizzy was The toolbar… But mostly I’d like to avoid interfacing with other mods as much as possible.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ If some cat has an express install at hand, try walking on the keyboard to see if there is a key that doesn’t do anything yet.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ i do but i changed some default ksp keybinds :c
<queqiao->
⟨kuzinat0r⟩ Dunno, L, O, I, J, K don't do anything for me
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ *@egg* I think that lag in this case isn't caused by the lines themselves because i can easily increase the steps and see a longer prediction without excessive performance cost if the burn is not involved.
<queqiao->
I think its something with the burn integrator trying to work out 0 prograde thrust?
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ my guessed good enough, its 15fps at 25k lenght
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ * i
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ MMM just increasing the flight plan doesnt seem to always trigger the lag, while plotting a manouver when you have RCS but not prograde does
<queqiao->
no unclutter 1mm precision, what kind of nasa computer is that
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ The precision does not change the cost, the number of steps does.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ * For the prediction, the
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ +For the flight plan, the precision affects cost so long as you do not time out, but the time out is determined by the number of steps too.
<queqiao->
⟨ezsnack⟩ when you load a save or switch to a vessel that is in sun SOI then switch to another reference frame the sun has a yellow trajectory line that otherwise wouldnt have when just launching from Earth. is this intended? it also doesnt go away when clicking unclutter but theres no pin button for the sun :V