raptop changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> egg|nomz|egg: generally if your eyes are dewing over, that's not the weather. | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer. | We can haz pdf
<UmbralRaptor>
Beware of exploding eagles tonight
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* egg|zzz|egg
ubuprofen
* UmbralRaptor
did not realize that you could conjugate that
<mofh>
egg|zzz|egg: so my hot take is that ULH campus is really pretty (as are the Jardins Suspendus, for that matter).
<SnoopJeDi>
!how pretty
<galois>
SnoopJeDi: 345 prettys
<SnoopJeDi>
lovely
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<_whitenotifier-5dfc>
[Principia] pleroy opened pull request #2236: Check the argument ranges - https://git.io/fj6Qw
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* UmbralRaptor
somehow ended up having to make pip uninstall numpy multiple times
<whitequark>
once per version?
<whitequark>
pip works like that
<UmbralRaptor>
Kinda?
<UmbralRaptor>
Also, there's a system installed version that it didn't touch.
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<UmbralRaptor>
Fortunately, this was Ubuntu rather than OSX, so the system install didn't take precedence over the newer pip ones
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<SnoopJeDi>
I would recommend always using the --user flag when doing pip install, and using venvs, too.
<UmbralRaptor>
hrm
<whitequark>
hot take: no package manager should ever touch the system packages
<whitequark>
that should be reserved for apt or whatever
<SnoopJeDi>
It's a real bummer that apt even has packages for stuff that's already covered by PyPI
<SnoopJeDi>
Or rather the repositories for Debian and friends, I should say.
<whitequark>
the opposite
<whitequark>
try compiling numba with pip and you'll figure out why
<whitequark>
anything with a native dependency ideally should be a system package
<whitequark>
i mean, that's one alternative. the other one is pip integrating with the system package manager, like opam does, but that requires pip to not be a pile of garbage, which is an order a bit too tall
<whitequark>
thinking about packaging is so depressing
<whitequark>
take conda, for example.
<whitequark>
wait no, i shouldn't talk about conda, i don't have enough drugs for that
<SnoopJeDi>
whitequark, what don't you like about pip that you consider to be incompatible with apt? Wheels are certainly fine for the typical targets
<SnoopJeDi>
But maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean
<whitequark>
if your pip package depends on llvm it should build against system llvm
<whitequark>
even more important if it depends on libpng or something like that
<whitequark>
because if you distribute wheels of libpng you're automatically responsible for everyone who falls victim to an RCE that libpng gets every once in a while
<SnoopJeDi>
Fair enough. It's been a long time since I've issued a pip install that needed to build anything.
<SnoopJeDi>
...which I guess means the deps are mostly dynamic and "I don't care as long as it's at least X.Y.Z"
<SnoopJeDi>
(the deps I run into I mean)
<whitequark>
yeah, deb packages for python-only pips are a little silly
<whitequark>
really it wouldn't be a problem if they could be autogenerated
<SnoopJeDi>
I'll agree that conda is kinda crazy though
<SnoopJeDi>
It's just that really unfortunate kind of crazy where it sorta does make sense
<whitequark>
the problem is not that it's crazy
<SnoopJeDi>
Damned if I could describe how the hell one builds a recipe though.
<whitequark>
the problem is that it doesn't fucking work
<whitequark>
m-labs used to use conda extensively, with yours truly responsible for it working for a good chunk of time
<SnoopJeDi>
Oh?
<whitequark>
and its authors are shitheads who are far better at searching complains about conda on twitter than fixing its bugs and design issues
<SnoopJeDi>
haha
<SnoopJeDi>
yes I do get the sense that community contributors do more of the lifting
<whitequark>
like, you do something easy, like make a noarch package, or install a package
<whitequark>
and 60% of the time it works
<whitequark>
and 40% of the time conda does something totally insane, or dies with an error that doesn't make sense
<whitequark>
so you rm -rf its install and try again. this takes half a hour
<whitequark>
i *tried* properly debugging those
<whitequark>
it usually doesn't really work, and when it does i have to fix their shitty code
<whitequark>
i hate conda more than any other piece of software in existence
<SnoopJeDi>
What sort of packages gave you grief with it? I've only been exposed to scipy stuff, which is practically free because those largely do fine with just pip *anyway*
<whitequark>
it's not packages
<whitequark>
it's conda itself
<SnoopJeDi>
oh, it just shit the bed at random?
<whitequark>
exactly
<SnoopJeDi>
computers were a mistake
<whitequark>
no
<whitequark>
conda is written by idiots
<whitequark>
conda is the only package manager with a worse user experience than installing slackware from 3.5" floppies
<whitequark>
i fucking know, because i -did the latter-
<SnoopJeDi>
haha
<whitequark>
there are plenty of really badly designed package managers, like pip
<whitequark>
none of them come even close to conda
<SnoopJeDi>
I don't know much about pip's innards, except that get-pip.sh basically has an interpreter bolted into it in base64 or something insane
<whitequark>
that's reasonable though?
<SnoopJeDi>
It's not less reasonable than anything else, yea
<whitequark>
i mean, rust uses curl|sh
<SnoopJeDi>
[hygienic screaming]
<whitequark>
... which isn't any different from what you do on windows
<SnoopJeDi>
okay so now I'm just curious since you know this landscape. opinions on NixOS?
<whitequark>
mixed
<whitequark>
the concepts are very good and are clearly the future of this domain
<whitequark>
the nix language is horrifying
<whitequark>
like the level of design there is "a bunch of shell scripts duct taped together" but with more purity
<SnoopJeDi>
on a scale of 1 to portage
<SnoopJeDi>
how horrifying
<whitequark>
the reason i personally don't use them is because nix doesn't treat ABI-stable libraries as a first class thing
<whitequark>
so like if i upgrade glibc, i have to rebuild everything that depends on glibc
<SnoopJeDi>
although actually I don't mean that, portage is...not terrible I guess.
<SnoopJeDi>
wait wtf it doesn't have that as an internal concept?
<whitequark>
the nix devs acknowledge that as a problem but do not give it a very high priority. i do. so i don't use nix as a way of not encouraging that.
<whitequark>
it doesn't.
<SnoopJeDi>
that seems like...MVP?
<whitequark>
opengl is shoehorned into nix with a kind of a hack
<whitequark>
and the rest is just, hope you like gentoo
<SnoopJeDi>
well, not minimum I guess and it's not too surprising since the whole thing is built on top of the "MUST. BOOTSTRAP. EVERYTHING." mindset AFAICT
<SnoopJeDi>
I haven't poked at NixOS/nix, mostly because of the people who've mentioned it to me.
<SnoopJeDi>
but "mixed" was pretty much my takeaway, too
<whitequark>
everyone i know who actually uses it says it's a game changer, and i totally see that
<SnoopJeDi>
the idea is
<whitequark>
there's also guile i think
<whitequark>
guix*
<SnoopJeDi>
ah yea I think I've seen that floating around in the same context (freenode-#python adjacent)
<whitequark>
i probably want to play with it
<whitequark>
it *also* doesn't understand abi-stable shared libraries
<SnoopJeDi>
one day I might feel like I'm starting to "get" computers
<SnoopJeDi>
and then I'm sure the floor will fall out from under me again anyway
<SnoopJeDi>
at least it's a good ride ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<whitequark>
i dig into every part of computing but all i get is twitter rants