raptop changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> egg|nomz|egg: generally if your eyes are dewing over, that's not the weather. | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer. | We can haz pdf
<UmbralRaptor> Beware of exploding eagles tonight
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* egg|zzz|egg ubuprofen
* UmbralRaptor did not realize that you could conjugate that
<mofh> egg|zzz|egg: so my hot take is that ULH campus is really pretty (as are the Jardins Suspendus, for that matter).
<SnoopJeDi> !how pretty
<galois> SnoopJeDi: 345 prettys
<SnoopJeDi> lovely
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<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] pleroy opened pull request #2236: Check the argument ranges - https://git.io/fj6Qw
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #2236: Check the argument ranges - https://git.io/fj6Qw
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3733/
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<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3733/
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* UmbralRaptor somehow ended up having to make pip uninstall numpy multiple times
<whitequark> once per version?
<whitequark> pip works like that
<UmbralRaptor> Kinda?
<UmbralRaptor> Also, there's a system installed version that it didn't touch.
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<UmbralRaptor> Fortunately, this was Ubuntu rather than OSX, so the system install didn't take precedence over the newer pip ones
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<SnoopJeDi> I would recommend always using the --user flag when doing pip install, and using venvs, too.
<UmbralRaptor> hrm
<whitequark> hot take: no package manager should ever touch the system packages
<whitequark> that should be reserved for apt or whatever
<SnoopJeDi> It's a real bummer that apt even has packages for stuff that's already covered by PyPI
<SnoopJeDi> Or rather the repositories for Debian and friends, I should say.
<whitequark> the opposite
<whitequark> try compiling numba with pip and you'll figure out why
<whitequark> anything with a native dependency ideally should be a system package
<whitequark> i mean, that's one alternative. the other one is pip integrating with the system package manager, like opam does, but that requires pip to not be a pile of garbage, which is an order a bit too tall
<whitequark> thinking about packaging is so depressing
<whitequark> take conda, for example.
<whitequark> wait no, i shouldn't talk about conda, i don't have enough drugs for that
<SnoopJeDi> whitequark, what don't you like about pip that you consider to be incompatible with apt? Wheels are certainly fine for the typical targets
<SnoopJeDi> But maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean
<whitequark> if your pip package depends on llvm it should build against system llvm
<whitequark> even more important if it depends on libpng or something like that
<whitequark> because if you distribute wheels of libpng you're automatically responsible for everyone who falls victim to an RCE that libpng gets every once in a while
<SnoopJeDi> Fair enough. It's been a long time since I've issued a pip install that needed to build anything.
<SnoopJeDi> ...which I guess means the deps are mostly dynamic and "I don't care as long as it's at least X.Y.Z"
<SnoopJeDi> (the deps I run into I mean)
<whitequark> yeah, deb packages for python-only pips are a little silly
<whitequark> really it wouldn't be a problem if they could be autogenerated
<SnoopJeDi> I'll agree that conda is kinda crazy though
<SnoopJeDi> It's just that really unfortunate kind of crazy where it sorta does make sense
<whitequark> the problem is not that it's crazy
<SnoopJeDi> Damned if I could describe how the hell one builds a recipe though.
<whitequark> the problem is that it doesn't fucking work
<whitequark> m-labs used to use conda extensively, with yours truly responsible for it working for a good chunk of time
<SnoopJeDi> Oh?
<whitequark> and its authors are shitheads who are far better at searching complains about conda on twitter than fixing its bugs and design issues
<SnoopJeDi> haha
<SnoopJeDi> yes I do get the sense that community contributors do more of the lifting
<whitequark> like, you do something easy, like make a noarch package, or install a package
<whitequark> and 60% of the time it works
<whitequark> and 40% of the time conda does something totally insane, or dies with an error that doesn't make sense
<whitequark> so you rm -rf its install and try again. this takes half a hour
<whitequark> i *tried* properly debugging those
<whitequark> it usually doesn't really work, and when it does i have to fix their shitty code
<whitequark> i hate conda more than any other piece of software in existence
<SnoopJeDi> What sort of packages gave you grief with it? I've only been exposed to scipy stuff, which is practically free because those largely do fine with just pip *anyway*
<whitequark> it's not packages
<whitequark> it's conda itself
<SnoopJeDi> oh, it just shit the bed at random?
<whitequark> exactly
<SnoopJeDi> computers were a mistake
<whitequark> no
<whitequark> conda is written by idiots
<whitequark> conda is the only package manager with a worse user experience than installing slackware from 3.5" floppies
<whitequark> i fucking know, because i -did the latter-
<SnoopJeDi> haha
<whitequark> there are plenty of really badly designed package managers, like pip
<whitequark> none of them come even close to conda
<SnoopJeDi> I don't know much about pip's innards, except that get-pip.sh basically has an interpreter bolted into it in base64 or something insane
<whitequark> that's reasonable though?
<SnoopJeDi> It's not less reasonable than anything else, yea
<whitequark> i mean, rust uses curl|sh
<SnoopJeDi> [hygienic screaming]
<whitequark> ... which isn't any different from what you do on windows
<SnoopJeDi> okay so now I'm just curious since you know this landscape. opinions on NixOS?
<whitequark> mixed
<whitequark> the concepts are very good and are clearly the future of this domain
<whitequark> the nix language is horrifying
<whitequark> like the level of design there is "a bunch of shell scripts duct taped together" but with more purity
<SnoopJeDi> on a scale of 1 to portage
<SnoopJeDi> how horrifying
<whitequark> the reason i personally don't use them is because nix doesn't treat ABI-stable libraries as a first class thing
<whitequark> so like if i upgrade glibc, i have to rebuild everything that depends on glibc
<SnoopJeDi> although actually I don't mean that, portage is...not terrible I guess.
<SnoopJeDi> wait wtf it doesn't have that as an internal concept?
<whitequark> the nix devs acknowledge that as a problem but do not give it a very high priority. i do. so i don't use nix as a way of not encouraging that.
<whitequark> it doesn't.
<SnoopJeDi> that seems like...MVP?
<whitequark> opengl is shoehorned into nix with a kind of a hack
<whitequark> and the rest is just, hope you like gentoo
<SnoopJeDi> well, not minimum I guess and it's not too surprising since the whole thing is built on top of the "MUST. BOOTSTRAP. EVERYTHING." mindset AFAICT
<SnoopJeDi> I haven't poked at NixOS/nix, mostly because of the people who've mentioned it to me.
<SnoopJeDi> but "mixed" was pretty much my takeaway, too
<whitequark> everyone i know who actually uses it says it's a game changer, and i totally see that
<SnoopJeDi> the idea is
<whitequark> there's also guile i think
<whitequark> guix*
<SnoopJeDi> ah yea I think I've seen that floating around in the same context (freenode-#python adjacent)
<whitequark> i probably want to play with it
<whitequark> it *also* doesn't understand abi-stable shared libraries
<SnoopJeDi> one day I might feel like I'm starting to "get" computers
<SnoopJeDi> and then I'm sure the floor will fall out from under me again anyway
<SnoopJeDi> at least it's a good ride ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<whitequark> i dig into every part of computing but all i get is twitter rants
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