UmbralRaptor changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> egg|nomz|egg: generally if your eyes are dewing over, that's not the weather. | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer. | We can haz pdf
<galois>
[WIKIPEDIA] Mikoyan MiG-29#/media/File:German MIG-29 Nose.jpg | "The Mikoyan MiG-29 (Russian: Микоян МиГ-29; NATO reporting name: Fulcrum) is a twin-engine jet fighter aircraft designed in the Soviet Union. Developed by the Mikoyan design bureau as an air superiority fighter during the 1970s, the MiG-29, along with the larger Sukhoi Su-27, was developed to counter..."
<whitequark>
huh
<SnoopJ>
we did a jet recognition thingy at work recently as a subcontract. riiiight on my ethical discomfort line
<egg|laptop|egg>
(now my trousers tend to fall off >_<)
<whitequark>
i gained uh
<whitequark>
at least 30 kg
<whitequark>
possibly more but i'm too afraid to check
<SnoopJ>
I have gained as well, but my data are too spotty to evaluate the query
<whitequark>
pros: of all the people i regularly talk to, i now have the biggest tits
<whitequark>
cons: i would prefer to have a lower weight :(
<whitequark>
[talk to in person, obviously. after a *fourth* remark to that extent i started to notice a pattern]
<SnoopJ>
I read that as "talk to in fourth person" for a second and was just willing to shrug it off as "oh well, she's always ahead of the curve, makes sense she'd be early to a novel narrative perspective"
<egg|laptop|egg>
(yeah I have very spotty mass data too but "pants fall off" is a pretty clear measurement)
<egg|laptop|egg>
(I then bought jeans one size smaller, and *those* fall off too >_<)
<whitequark>
lol
<whitequark>
egg|laptop|egg: so how'd you do it
<whitequark>
i mean i know how'd i do it, i stopped going outside even before the pandemic
<egg|laptop|egg>
whitequark: I tend to be picky about food, and I spent the first wave alone in Normandy, so the food intake was bounded by my laziness when it came to doing some decent cooking
<whitequark>
oh i see
<SnoopJ>
John Walker's (free) book offers a very good perspective on matter manipulation
<whitequark>
i'm picky about food too but it mostly results in finding the one kind of fast food i find acceptable and then only eating that once a day
<whitequark>
so, exactly the opposite effect
<SnoopJ>
the tl;dr being "it's literally a PID, but you have to build it yourself"
<egg|laptop|egg>
whitequark: interesting
<egg|laptop|egg>
I suppose being in Normandy far from any source of food other than the supermarket made that approach less viable, too
<whitequark>
egg|laptop|egg: it's probably *less* unhealthy than if i didn't have access to fast food
<egg|laptop|egg>
yeah
<whitequark>
i used to basically not eat until it became acutely painful
<whitequark>
the problem was that it made me too angry to coexist with
<egg|laptop|egg>
yeah that sounds significantly worse
<SnoopJ>
my entire family is like this 🙃
<whitequark>
well, when this got pointed out, i decided to start eating
<whitequark>
so for a year or so i ate pizza. a *lot* of pizza. i had stacks of pizza boxes from floor to ceiling
<SnoopJ>
the difficult-to-coexist-with thing?
<whitequark>
yeah
<whitequark>
i didn't realize it was because of food, at first
<whitequark>
it's just that like
<whitequark>
i can cook for myself alright
<SnoopJ>
I'm mad about how well snickers captured it in their ad campaign
<whitequark>
but if i have to cook for myself i will get literally nothing else done
<whitequark>
because even the absolute simplest things i can cook takes something like 4-5 hours out of my day in the end and it leaves me completely drained
<whitequark>
15 minutes of actual cooking, 4 hours of stress
<SnoopJ>
totally unorganized but there are a few useful references in there. "Who success in maintaining..." and "What predicts weight regain..." are pretty good in particular.
<egg|laptop|egg>
ow
<SnoopJ>
whitequark, out of curiosity, do you practice mise en place when you cook?
<whitequark>
SnoopJ: i'm not sure how useful is that
<SnoopJ>
it was a horrible experience for me before I started putting my foot down and requiring prep to be a separate stage fully completed before anything goes on the heat
<whitequark>
it starts by asserting that BMI is a useful indicator which i thought was widely discredited by now
<SnoopJ>
uhhh it depends what it's indicating
<whitequark>
SnoopJ: i never cook anything more complex than like, plain pasta with sausages
<whitequark>
which requires no prep
<whitequark>
i think the most preparation i *ever* do is cutting meat to remove fat i don't like
<SnoopJ>
it's a pretty robust indicator of mortality rate, although there's plenty of evidence that there's population biases in the particular locations of the cutoffs
<whitequark>
yes that's what i mean
<SnoopJ>
but it's not a very good indicator of systemic health or whatever if that's what you mean
<SnoopJ>
I think of it as more like a tool that was developed to help doctors have 'that conversation' and then turned into an eldritch horror
<whitequark>
maybe it should have not been developed in first place
<SnoopJ>
potentially
<SnoopJ>
a more robust measure is %bf if you can be arsed to measure it
<whitequark>
egg|laptop|egg: what the fuck was i on when writing that
<SnoopJ>
bioelectrical impedance analysis is *okay*, it's not very accurate but it's precise-ish
<egg|laptop|egg>
whitequark: I don’t know but the soup seemed particularly interesting
<SnoopJ>
calipers or DEXA are gold standard, I think the hermetic analysis pod thingies are okay as well
<SnoopJ>
but the particular values are often less interesting than the desire to go up/down on the scale, which is why I like Walker's approach
<whitequark>
this implies that i care about measuring weight at all, which i don't
<whitequark>
the only thing i care about at all is the ability to exercise, and having exercise associated with weight *in any way whatsoever* is directly detrimental
<SnoopJ>
the "Who succeeds..." reference offers perspectives on this, the conclusion IIRC is that feedback of some kind is a correlate, but the particular kind of feedback isn't very relevant
<galois>
title: #kspacademia on 2018-06-24 â irc logs at whitequark.org
<whitequark>
SnoopJ: honestly
<SnoopJ>
which dovetails nicely with John Walker's "it's basically an HVAC system" mindset
<egg|laptop|egg>
> â
<whitequark>
the only kind of weight research i will even bother reading is the one which is specifically done on people with ADHD
<whitequark>
because the rest is more of infohazard than useful research
<whitequark>
the correct way to approach a paper talking about "willpower" is to punch the author in the face, not publish it in a journal
<SnoopJ>
yea that's why I started putting that biblio together, so that the community I was part of had places to point
<whitequark>
right
<SnoopJ>
oh jeez is "willpower" in one of those
<whitequark>
yes, it was when i stopped reading the list
<whitequark>
egg|laptop|egg: galois can't into utf-8?
<SnoopJ>
it does very poorly yes
<SnoopJ>
(it's my fault, not sopel's)
<SnoopJ>
whitequark, oh do you mean the temporal discounting paper?
<egg|laptop|egg>
whitequark: probably
<egg|laptop|egg>
â\x80\x94
<egg|laptop|egg>
so \xe2\x80\x94
<egg|laptop|egg>
so —
<egg|laptop|egg>
!u —
<galois>
—: U+2014 EM DASH
<SnoopJ>
I think I do something braindead like arbitrary truncation
<egg|laptop|egg>
no this is not a truncation issue
<whitequark>
SnoopJ: yeah
<egg|laptop|egg>
this is decoding the title in CP1252
<SnoopJ>
hmm
<egg|laptop|egg>
no wait, in latin-1
<egg|laptop|egg>
CP1252 would be —
<SnoopJ>
whitequark, ah, that paper is not advocating that position, just pointing out that the mindset and the preference for short-term control (i.e. over long-term) correlate
<SnoopJ>
I think I added that because we had so many people coming into the community who wanted to lose X within Y duration which is basically completely missing the point. It's like wearing glasses for six months to 'fix' one's vision.
<SnoopJ>
but I can see how the excerpt is...not making this clear >_>
<whitequark>
SnoopJ: ahhh okay
<whitequark>
i'll give it another look then
<SnoopJ>
any papers that source data from NWCR are pretty good IME
<whitequark>
yeah, i'm uninterested in losing X weight, i'm interested in restructuring my life so that once again i move like... nonzero amount
<whitequark>
because right now it is definitely zero
<SnoopJ>
heh, yea
<whitequark>
and back when it was nonzero i was having exactly the right amount of weight
<SnoopJ>
I got a bicycle recently with similar motives. Still need to get cold-weather apparel
<whitequark>
unfortunately, clomipramine completely fucked my brain
<SnoopJ>
walking the dog is kind of nice as long as I make a point of doing it in the middle of the day. Get some sun, get her some exercise, reset my brain for <whatever I'm working on>
<whitequark>
like, depriving your brain of oxygen every time you have any physical activity down to and including "standing upright" teaches it REALLY well to never do that
<SnoopJ>
I'm back on lisdexamfetamine and I'd forgotten how real the appetite suppression is
<whitequark>
oh yeah i ran out of stims
<whitequark>
the appetite suppression is real and i have to make myself eat ... but ... i don't actually lose any weight on it
<whitequark>
which i think is expected from studies
<SnoopJ>
this was my experience when I took it previously
<whitequark>
not losing weight?
<SnoopJ>
yea
<whitequark>
right
<SnoopJ>
it just seemed to consolidate my meals
<whitequark>
the one thing i find it useful for is exercise
<SnoopJ>
falls fully under Walker's glasses metaphor for me
<whitequark>
because with enough amp i find even exercise bikes tolerable
<SnoopJ>
since if I stopped taking it the effect would go away
<whitequark>
note: "enough" is a *lot* in this context
<whitequark>
more than what i would normally take because they really need some bloody single-minded focus
<SnoopJ>
I've considered getting a trainer for my bike, winter rides sound like...a lot.
<SnoopJ>
mostly don't want to bother with a whole new set of apparel for it
<whitequark>
i can't do it alone, mostly because of clomipramine consequences
<whitequark>
so either i get roommate along or i won't be abel to do it
<whitequark>
in large part because i can't actually haul a bike on 5th floor with no elevator
<whitequark>
but also because i don't experience time
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<SnoopJ>
I miss the exercise regimen I had when I was doing my best at control
<whitequark>
i think the trick is to have control out of question
<SnoopJ>
"if nothing else, I picked up heavy things today" was a big mood
<SnoopJ>
oh yes sorry I don't mean control in the "willpower" sense here
<whitequark>
ohh
<SnoopJ>
I mean in the sense of "there is a system"
<SnoopJ>
I think there's still a case for discipline to abide by the system, but I think that "Who succeeds..." paper makes a very good counter-argument that this is also often a sign that the system is a poor fit to the individual
<whitequark>
well the good news is that you can replace discipline with amp
<whitequark>
you just need to remember to take enough
<SnoopJ>
ahah
<whitequark>
being completely serious (there is still some work involved but not in the traditional sense of "discipline")
<SnoopJ>
I have been experiencing a small existential crisis as coming back onto lisdexamf has not...entirely resolved my problems
<whitequark>
yes
<whitequark>
it's not magic
<SnoopJ>
but like, of course not
<whitequark>
it needs to be combined with skills
<SnoopJ>
it just gives me a better place to work from
<SnoopJ>
yea
<whitequark>
the good thing is that as academics or academia-adjacent people we know how to develop those
<SnoopJ>
whitequark, does the name Gabor Maté ring a bell to you? I've been reading his "Scattered Minds" recently after seeing it float around on twitter
<whitequark>
yes, actually
<SnoopJ>
namely the excerpt about vacillation between "I literally can't stop doing the thing" and "laying on the couch feeling like a piece of shit"
<whitequark>
drmaciver wrote a review of it, i think. he was very unimpressed with the book
<whitequark>
oh, got a link?
<SnoopJ>
uhh not offhand but lemme see if I can dig it up
<whitequark>
regarding the excerpt, this is something that i have avoided through a combination of being lucky and angry
<whitequark>
this is definitely a very common result of ADHD-associated trauma caused by parents
<SnoopJ>
is drmaciver the Hypothesis author?
<whitequark>
yes
<SnoopJ>
jeez, the world is so tiny
<SnoopJ>
I'm about 2/3 through and I would say I'm a little underwhelmed, but I'm just about to begin the "adult diagnoses/skills" section which people in that RT'd thread seemed to like
<SnoopJ>
I'm not super skeptical of the argument he's laying out (in short: early attachment strongly determines ability to self-regulate later in life) but neither would I say I'm learning anything that isn't a "perspective"
<whitequark>
so historically when i had a conflict between "squirrel" and "obligation" i always picked "squirrel" and then ignored the consequences, which resulted in some beatings and my mother trying to murder me, which i tried to solve by hating her much, much more than myself
<SnoopJ>
the most advice in the book so far is towards parents and pointing out the self-reinforcing nature of that cycle
<whitequark>
i'm saying "lucky" because in the end the choice of picking "squirrel" is actually the more healthy one, so the main problem i have is overwork, as opposed to overwork, pervasive shame, and a dozen of other problems
<SnoopJ>
heh
<whitequark>
it still needs i have to figure out how to work with my mind and not against it, but i have fewer things to untangle, comparatively
<whitequark>
still means*
<whitequark>
anyway
<SnoopJ>
yea it's a cliché what a revelation that is, but like, clichés are signal
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<whitequark>
the relevance to exercise is that i don't have to deal with lack of focus *and* shame over lack of focus. just the lack of focus specifically. and i feel like a lot of authors (understandably) focus on shame
<SnoopJ>
thanks for sharing your perspective, I respect your knowledge on brainstuff quite a lot
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<SnoopJ>
yea exercise seems to be particularly helpful
<whitequark>
my view is that shame is best addressed through violence. not necessarily literal violence, though if push comes to shove (like if your parents are still in your life for some reason), absolutely do it. mostly you have to kill the parent-flavored cop in your head.
<SnoopJ>
I know for me it had/has a lot to do with confidence building
<whitequark>
but lack of focus is harder to address because you have to build rather than destroy
<SnoopJ>
"parent-flavored cop" oof
<SnoopJ>
galaxybrain: replace the cop with a static analyzer
<SnoopJ>
I think about "static type systems aren't cops" a lot since I saw that discussion between you and @eevee
* whitequark
nods
<SnoopJ>
whitequark, do you recall if drmaciver's review was on his blog, or twitter, or elsewhere?
<whitequark>
blog, linked to on twitter
<SnoopJ>
ta
<SnoopJ>
never read his thoughts I think, but I do love hypothesis a lot
<whitequark>
never used hypothesis but i really like reading his blog and discussing it with him
<SnoopJ>
it's pretty stuzzy, the search techniques are good
<whitequark>
half-joking description: lesswrong if lesswrong was actually good
<SnoopJ>
ahah
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<SnoopJ>
I think I agree with his evaluation
<SnoopJ>
certainly the criticism of it as not really backing up its claims so well. I have been underwhelmed by the references
<SnoopJ>
although one of them was a lovely read in Harper's
<SnoopJ>
"What, after all, does it mean to provide an appropriate education to a student? Frankly, nobody knows. Appropriate education is relative. It depends on the kid. Some seventeen-year-olds need to be able to factor polynomials and deconstruct Ivanhoe; other seventeen-year-olds need to learn to recognize common visual cues: skull and crossbones mean poison, do not touch, stay away. And
<SnoopJ>
there are a lot of seventeen-year-olds in between. It's hard to tell who requires what..."
<SnoopJ>
you'd hope this would be obvious, but *gestures to education*
<whitequark>
yup
<SnoopJ>
and he summarized his feelings in the same chapter (that quote was the epigraph): "_Who are we trying to teach_ must precede _what are we trying to teach_ as a fundamental consideration. Teaching methods must reflect the first of those questions at least as much as the second."
<SnoopJ>
I dunno about the "must" wording but it rings fairly true for my teaching experiences
<SnoopJ>
(so naturally it's the thing most optimized away from in classrooms)
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<egg|cell|egg>
Meow
<raptop>
!wpn egg|cell|egg
* galois
gives egg|cell|egg a clopen differentiable debugger
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* raptop
blinks at my latest bathroom scale reading (65.9 kg)
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<WeylandsWings>
hah i wish i was that light
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<egg>
!wpn whitequark
* galois
gives whitequark a 🌈 toggle with a cnidarian attachment
<SnoopJ>
!wpn -add:adj 🏳️🌈
<galois>
Added adj '🏳️🌈'
<WeylandsWings>
!wpn egg
* galois
gives egg a galactic MX apartment
<raptop>
!8 Should the president be allowed to nuke a hurricane?
<galois>
raptop: yes
<SnoopJ>
!wpn -add:adj nonproliferative
<galois>
Added adj 'nonproliferative'
<SnoopJ>
!wpn -add:wpn ballot
<galois>
Added wpn 'ballot'
<SnoopJ>
!wpn -add:adj mail-in
<galois>
Added adj 'mail-in'
<raptop>
!wpn -add:wpn veto
<galois>
Added wpn 'veto'
<raptop>
!wpn -add:wpn fillibuster
<galois>
Added wpn 'fillibuster'
<raptop>
!wpn -add:adj partisan
<galois>
Added adj 'partisan'
<raptop>
!wpn -add:adj nonpartisan
<galois>
Added adj 'nonpartisan'
<SnoopJ>
phillybuster
<raptop>
!8 Am I allowed to stab people who say that Philidelphia is a midwestern city?
<galois>
raptop: no
<SnoopJ>
w-what
<SnoopJ>
these people exist?!
<raptop>
Or maybe it's more of people (particularly NYC natives, but I think also some Bostonians) calling PA a midwestern state
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<raptop>
(There's also the annoyance of an NYC native president who doesn't seem clear on how the US west of about the 100th meridian has little rain)
<SnoopJ>
among other things
<raptop>
well, yes. among many other things
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