<Pinkbeast>
That confused me until I realised the axes were the wrong way around
<UmbralRaptor>
?
<UmbralRaptor>
I thought that was the standard way the axes went?
<Pinkbeast>
I always have Lawful across the top
<UmbralRaptor>
o_O
<Pinkbeast>
... although apparently you are right and this is not the conventional arrangement. Gah!
<UmbralRaptor>
Maybe it's a UK thing?
* UmbralRaptor
ducks.
<Pinkbeast>
Huh, apparently 4E has only LG, G, "unaligned", E, CE.
<GreeningGalaxy>
I think I played 4E once. Lots of things about it made no sense and make a lot more sense in 5E.
<Pinkbeast>
4E was the not-WoW-honest edition
<UmbralRaptor>
1 axis removes all the fun
<GreeningGalaxy>
Dungeon of Warcraft / Worlds and Dragons
<Pinkbeast>
UmbralRaptor: I've seen it pointed out (just now, but it's true enough) that it practically _is_ one axis; the elves don't team up with the ogres and goblins to defend Chaos against the dwarves
<Pinkbeast>
also coincidentally just chugged through a bunch of 1e/2e country supplements and the occasional outbreaks of realpolitik sit uneasily with alignment, but that's another gripe
<GreeningGalaxy>
I sort of wish we were playing 3.5e so we could cast enervation on commoners and bring about the Wightocalypse
<GreeningGalaxy>
but I think in 5e they took out the entire negative levels thing
<UmbralRaptor>
Pinkbeast: I want to say that Planescape is a bit better about having law vs chaos? Though mainly with the evil side.
<Pinkbeast>
Evil's usually better at fighting evil (& lawful evil quite happy to fight lawful evil and likewise CE), but it is a bit less clear-cut, yes
<UmbralRaptor>
GreeningGalaxy: 1) Acquire a druid. 2) Use the druid to acquire as many housecats as possible. 3) overrun a town.
<Pinkbeast>
My first instinct is to distrust the 5E single-axis system but that is generally what it boils down to
<GreeningGalaxy>
5E single-axis? 5E has the full plane of chaotic/lawful good/evil
<Pinkbeast>
errr 4E, 'scuse fingers
<GreeningGalaxy>
now, I have my reservations about the whole moral absolute good/evil thing to be sure, but at least it's not one axis. that's boring as hell
<GreeningGalaxy>
My character is neutral good but I think I might need to switch her to lawful neutral. I mean, she ostensibly pursues what she views as the Most Good course of action, but I can't honestly figure out if that's more of a Lawful or Good thing. (she's pragmatic enough that the other one, whatever it is, pretty much has to be Neutral)
<GreeningGalaxy>
maybe I should just give up and ask if I can be Chaotic Lawful
<GreeningGalaxy>
or I can use lawfulness and goodness as a two-dimensional orthogonal basis of an integer-spin system, and say that any observation of my lawfulness collapses my state into one of the lawful/chaotic/neutral eigenalignments, causing the other value of my total alignment to become poorly defined.
<GreeningGalaxy>
I mean, that's not such a silly concept in a game with such reliance on random outcomes.
<UmbralRaptor>
[Good,Law] = h-bar/2
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<UmbralRaptor>
!wpn egg|cell|egg
* Qboid
gives egg|cell|egg a ligand-gated lutenium ā¢
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<Iskierka>
how long before cameras are good enough that a photograph of the back of a CD would be a copy of it
<Iskierka>
GG: though DMs don't consistently look that closely, the rulebook basically defines lawful as following a code, good as selfless/helping others
<Iskierka>
which does make some monster alignments odd, ex: kobolds are in tribes and always work to help the tribe, which from their perspective would then mean lawful good. But because it's normally approached from the perspective of outsiders who would be defended against, they're LE in the book
<GreeningGalaxy>
Iskierka: I thiiiink I picked the right alignment. I always priortize being selfless/helping others, but kind of make up whatever code I follow as I go. So I'm not chaotic, but I'm also not lawful, so .... neutral good.
<Iskierka>
either NG or LG could work there - L is just literally any code, L characters can completely flaunt official laws of the setting so long as they have their own code they follow
<GreeningGalaxy>
right, but I think I'm too pragmatic to really have a concrete code
<Iskierka>
or at least that's how it's written in the book. some DMs may find it a bit silly to go against the literal so obviously and disallow LG to flaunt the law
<Iskierka>
fair enough on that though
<GreeningGalaxy>
i.e. when others in my party started trying to break into a chest in an inn, I didn't go "that's illegal!" or "that's immoral!" I just went "uh, hey, that doesn't seem very nice, don't do that"
<GreeningGalaxy>
I probably *could* come up with a code for myself with enough time, but at the moment I have no clue what it is and just play by ear.
<Iskierka>
yeah, NG probably slightly better then
<GreeningGalaxy>
or maybe not, maybe it would be too changeful to ever write down
<Iskierka>
LN is someone who'd meet robin hood as described by the stories and hang him, for comparison, though
<Iskierka>
LG would make him do community service and NG would just ask whether he focusses on the mean rich people
<GreeningGalaxy>
sounds about right
<Iskierka>
CG would probably join in, CN, who knows, CE would stab him and take the money for themselves, LE would hang him after taking the money, NE would be unpredictable, and TN would say "meh"
<Iskierka>
which is why TN is a crap alignment and rather than dimensions it'd probably be more accurate to think of it as a circle
<GreeningGalaxy>
I think TE isn't really unrealistic so much as just describing someone who's pretty complacent with everything, and thus pretty unsuited to an adventurer
<Iskierka>
possibly
<GreeningGalaxy>
so you could have an interesting story with a TE person in your party (mostly why they came along) but it would be a strange and difficult choice for most games
<Iskierka>
but I think it'd work better as a circle and describing your alignment as a probability distribution around it, and TN is someone whose probability stretches over half of it
<Iskierka>
since this also covers things like someone who's extreme LG versus nominally LG who may be swayed by a decent sob story
<GreeningGalaxy>
hmmm
<Iskierka>
probably too weird to describe in the book in a way anyone could understand, but that's more how I think of it, since TN is on its own an odd idea
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<kmath>
<dominicholden> JUST IN: Republicans in North Carolina legislature file HB780 to defy Supreme Court's marriage ruling ā says same-sā¦ https://t.co/4SWxyBvZku
<UmbralRaptor>
wtf
<icefire>
just another bill that will never pass
<UmbralRaptor>
Optimist
<UmbralRaptor>
This is the state that got bathroom bills going.
<Iskierka>
the supreme court has specifically ruled opposite to this and they're quoting scripture which gives lots of opportunities to rule it both illegal and again the constitution at least