egg changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Catalan. We currently target 1.2.2. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/
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<NathanKell>
egg|zzz|egg: you awake?
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<xShadowx>
!win64
<xShadowx>
o.O
<xShadowx>
didnt that used to give links to builds?;3
<NathanKell>
yeah, they're in the OP now
<xShadowx>
oh :D
* xShadowx
looks at forum OP and thinks forums no longer have a post size limit o.O
<xShadowx>
that....is a forum post
<UmbralRaptor>
It also no longer suggests a replacement bird if you ask for a win32 build.
<egg|cell|egg>
NathanKell: yes
<NathanKell>
egg|zzz|egg: finally taking the plunge :)
<egg|cell|egg>
UmbralRaptor: birb
<egg|cell|egg>
Nk: wheee
<egg|cell|egg>
If using rp nought it shouldn't affect you for a while tbh
<NathanKell>
Yeah, it'll only really matter for me on rendezvous or lunar shots
<NathanKell>
but I do lunar shots _early_
* xShadowx
expects NK to go further than the moon this time ;3
<egg|cell|egg>
Rendez vous will feel different definitely
<egg|cell|egg>
Even in keplerian situations
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<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn NathanKell
* Qboid
gives NathanKell an immersive
<egg|zzz|egg>
uh
<egg|zzz|egg>
an immersive what
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn NathanKell
* Qboid
gives NathanKell an ill-conditioned dip pen
<NathanKell>
egg|zzz|egg: welp, just finished streaming my first brush with Principia. Dunno how to launch to matched inclinations...
<NathanKell>
(since I can't target the Moon)
<NathanKell>
Please tell me I don't have to do it visually or something
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<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: hmm
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: have you tried using the appropriate ball?
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: if you select the EMB or MCEA frame, the reference plane of the navball is the plane of the orbit
<egg|zzz|egg>
thus launching into it (when it's overhead of the pad) should work
<NathanKell>
so...I have to do it visually.
<NathanKell>
What is this, KSP!?
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: well, "visually", you're still looking at an instrument, not the sky :-p But I agree it might help to allow targeting so that less-enlightened autopilots may make use of the Keplerian fallback
<NathanKell>
Would anything bad happen if I did target a body using Sarbian's bodytargeter (IIRC he made one)?
<egg|zzz|egg>
this may have reduced accuracy
<egg|zzz|egg>
but might work?
<NathanKell>
compared to my eyes? Not that reduced I dare say :P
<egg|zzz|egg>
it's not your eyes, it's your instruments! :-p
<NathanKell>
Instruments can be wired to computers.
<NathanKell>
This relies on humans.
<egg|zzz|egg>
well, I guess someone could write an autopilot that interfaces with our libs :D
<egg|zzz|egg>
it may take a number of mad aerospace engineers, but then this is realism :D
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: but I get your point, I'll try to add a way to target celestials
<NathanKell>
Thanks :)
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: can you make an issue to track this on the github repo?
<NathanKell>
for now I'll see if Sarbian still has his bodytargeter lying around
<egg|zzz|egg>
otherwise I risk forgetting, I keep getting new issues
<GH>
[Principia] NathanKell opened issue #1414: Body Targeting https://git.io/vHW1M
<NathanKell>
Your own wiki warns against cowboying, and here you recommend. Academic, cite thyself. :P
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<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: btw, feature requests are welcome; often the answer might be "sure, in Weierstrass", "that's not how physics works", "that's not how mathematics work", or simply "give me a dozen engineers", but occasionally it works, e.g. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/62205-wip122-principia-version-catalan-released-2017-05-25-n-body-and-extended-body-gravitation/&page=29#comment-3068720 yielded
<egg|zzz|egg>
NathanKell: otoh, your need for MechJeb's "relative inclination indicator" will be obsolesced by #1406, which will display out-of-plane Δv (relative inclination is something very hard to define sensibly when your trajectories do not lie in a plane, but out-of-plane Δv is probably close enough to what you want)
<Qboid>
[#1406] title: Speed indications on markers | Shows the speed (in the plotting frame) on periapsis, apoapsis, and locally closest approach markers. Shows the speed normal to the reference plane on ascending/descending node markers. | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/1406
<NathanKell>
As the issue says, the killer application is not 'see relative inclination' it's "automate warping until you are in the plane"
<egg|zzz|egg>
yeah
<egg|zzz|egg>
I got that, just psychologically preparing you to the replacement of relative inclination by a shinier and more general metric :-p
<NathanKell>
As long as you write an auto-warper I don't care :)
<NathanKell>
gotta zzz tho, cheers! :)
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<GH>
[Principia] eggrobin commented on issue #1414: This could also be used for more unification of reference frame selection in the vein of #1411, though it's not clear if we want that particular behaviour (when launching to the Moon's plane, it may still be useful to see the velocities in the ECI or ECEF frame). https://git.io/vHWDE
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* egg|zzz|egg
should head to work
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<GH>
[Principia] NathanKell commented on issue #1414: During early launch I very definitely want to stay in ECEF if possible, yes.
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<egg|work|egg>
hmm, but then the question is whether the orbit mode should then default to EMB or somesuch (with surface remaining ECEF)
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<GH>
[Principia] scimas opened issue #1415: Vessel relative velocities change when switching to EVA https://git.io/vHlVf
<GH>
[Principia] scimas opened issue #1416: Vessels change position abruptly when using non-physical timewarp https://git.io/vHlwf
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<GH>
[Principia] SunScream commented on issue #1416: Happens at relatively long range and includes both targeted and non-targeted objects.... https://git.io/vHlAH
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<Sarbian>
NathanKell|AWAY: I don't but I am more and more inclined to create one or add one in MJ
<egg|afk|egg>
Sarbian: I will fix NathanKell|AWAY's issue though
<egg|afk|egg>
for Cauchy
<egg|afk|egg>
!wpn Sarbian
* Qboid
gives Sarbian a RS-232 fractal
<egg|afk|egg>
also I am not in fact away from keyboard
<egg|afk|egg>
well it depends which keyboard
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<Sarbian>
I am in fact feeling my keyboard to enjoy my couch
<Sarbian>
s/feel/flee/
<Qboid>
Sarbian meant to say: I am in fact fleeing my keyboard to enjoy my couch
<egg>
Sarbian: have a good couch!
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<GH>
[Principia] eggrobin commented on issue #1414: Upon further reflection, the inability to target the celestial orbited by the current celestial (e.g. Earth from the Moon) means unification with our reference frame selection would be very clunky and lopsided. I will allow celestial targeting, but not interact with it (besides disabling the rendering of the occasional random patched conic thing).... https://git.io/vH8u5
<maccollo>
I think you should reconsider being able to draw the target trajectory in non-target reference frames. My retrograde rendezvous is a bit of a special case since all those orbits have a special shape, and their shape rotates with the moon.
<egg>
maccollo: I think even there it would make sense
<egg>
that is, as soon as you have an "orbit" (something which stays roughly in the same place in some frame), you probably want to get in "the same sort of orbit" first
<egg>
then you do the rendez-vous proper (and there you use approach and node markers)
<maccollo>
yeah
<egg>
it still doesn't make sense to have node and approach markers in general unless you're in a target frame though, since things are not planar in general
<egg>
but seeing the target trajectory (with Pe/Ap if applicable) would make sense
<egg>
won't be in Cauchy though :-p
<egg>
but feel free to make an issue to track that one so we don't forget
<maccollo>
you could also check in on other satellites to see they don't crash much faster than switching to them and then checking
<egg>
yeah, that too
<egg>
maccollo: we definitely can't plot *all* trajectories like stock does until we have good downsampling (and that is a while away), but active+target would work
<egg>
maccollo: we are working on downsampling (phl is writing a camera right now) so eventually you should be able to display histories without lagging as hell :D
<maccollo>
the probe accelerates out to near escape velocity, n-body magic happens, and the spacecraft ends up coming back in a way so it can get into an orbit that closely matches the target
<egg>
:D
<maccollo>
takes a few days to get there though
<maccollo>
so the target orbit may by somewhat different once it gets there
<egg>
yeah
<egg>
but once you've planned the general shape you can probably use target mode to tune that
<egg>
the thing is planning the general shape, and there you do need both orbits
<GH>
[Principia] pleroy opened pull request #1418: A geometric transform to implement a pinhole camera perspective (master...Perspective) https://git.io/vH8iV
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<GH>
[Principia] eggrobin commented on issue #1414: In the future, it may make sense for Principia to support a "warp to alignment with plane" feature, or indeed a "warp to [astronomical event here]"; this is something we can do (we have tests that look for eclipses), and it seems useful.... https://git.io/vH8ya
<GH>
[Principia] NathanKell commented on issue #1414: Agree, that'd be rather useful for a bunch of reasons! https://git.io/vH89t
<egg>
NathanKell|AWAY: hm, I'm confused, does "that" refer to "warp to [astronomical event here]" or celestial targeting for the less-enlightened mods
<egg>
NathanKell|AWAY: also in the very very very very distant future I might find it amusing to do global optimization, that way I can find funny windows and flight plans for you (but then again it's more of a research problem than a game feature)