UmbralRaptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Fermat. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, and 1.7.2. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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neph. — How are you controlling it?
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Kobymaru. — with WASD-JKILHN 😉 what do you mean?
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neph. — oh nvm lol
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neph. — Wait do you have steady ground connection? (edited)
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neph. — And isn't the delay killer anyways?
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Kobymaru. — I'm using the stock commnet
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Kobymaru. — at least until RA is ready for primetime
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Kobymaru. — no wait I'm using RT after all lol. But without the signal delay, that thing drives you nuts
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Kobymaru. — Phobos itself doesn'T seem to block the signal, only mars.
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neph. — My goal is to write a decent kOS stationkeeping script
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Kobymaru. — for phobos?
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neph. — L1 first
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neph. — a general stationkeeping script can't be *that* hard, right???
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Kobymaru. — i don't actually know but it sounds quite ambitious 😉
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Kobymaru. — also, how will you handle time warp? or will you run it weeks at a time?
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neph. — kerbalism \o/
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neph. — And/or turning off timerwarp at intervals
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Kobymaru. — what about kerbalism? i haven't tried it and i don't quite know what it does
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neph. — the idea is that things keep running during warp or while unloaded
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neph. — I actually don't know how it plays with kOS
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Sir Mortimer. — It doesn’t. kOS works on loaded vessels only
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<discord->
Butcher. — Also you can't fire engines in unloaded vessels anyway.
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Standecco. — yeah sadly there isn't a simple "background = false" toggle that kerbalism changes. It's a simulation of all modules, with many problems and edge cases
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Standecco. — kOS is among the things that will never be able to work for unloaded vessels
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Standecco. — yeah sadly there isn't a simple "background = false" toggle that kerbalism changes. It's a simulation of some modules, with many problems and edge cases (edited)
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Butcher. — kOS does work while warping, on the active vessel.
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Butcher. — So there's that.
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Standecco. — it burns engine during time warp?
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egg. — @neph we don't have mascons for phobos at the moment, it's just Mars screwing with things
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egg. — @neph and yeah, as @Kobymaru, @Butcher, @Standecco, et al. have pointed out, stationkeeping is not even close to being a possibility
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egg. — Anyway, even without the problem of thrust-in-timewarp, even if that were easy rather than impossible, the actual stationkeeping part is way more complicated than you imagine
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egg. — As a point of reference: just for stationkeeping of an LEO satellite, you would, first, need to be able to describe your orbit. The only orbital elements you get from KSP right now are osculating elements, which massively vary over the course of one orbit and are thus essentially useless
* discord-
Standecco. — cough_ if we just had a tool for that _cough_
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egg. — I am working on mean elements (elements that are sufficiently stable that you can use them to describe a perturbed orbit)
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egg. — I have been working on mean elements since January
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siimav. — What if Principia had a way of switching individual vessels from n-body mode to where it's only affected by the gravity of the parent body... 🤔
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egg. — In the process, I read a book on satellite orbits, and a few dozen papers
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egg. — @neph tldr: if a feature is not there yet, it's complicated, far more so than you imagine unless you actually work in astrodynamics.
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egg. — @siimav what would even be the point of that, aside from adding code complexity
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egg. — @siimav that's not how stationkeeping works; a station-kept orbit is still subject to massive perturbations, it is just that those are kept under control
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siimav. — Not having to stationkeep vessels in orbit of some body. Carefully set-up commnet would be one use case.
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egg. — @siimav i regret to inform you that you have no idea how satellite orbits work
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egg. — which is fine
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siimav. — nice
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egg. — Any earth orbit has a massive Ω', and it just is there
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siimav. — The thing is that you only look at the realism perspective. I hate having to stationkeep some of my vessels which is why I would actually like having an option to disable n-body forces on them.
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siimav. — Unless you add actual stationkeeping that consumes fuel.
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egg. — I also look at it from the perspective that I don't want to implement the mod twice.
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egg. — you have no idea how complex things would get under your proposal.
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egg. — or how badly it would behave even for common satellites.
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siimav. — ok, fine
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Sir Mortimer. — TIL planning a reentry burn in the wrong reference frame us a good way to get your crew killed
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Damien. — Try setting up a Molniya constellation and trying to align them
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Damien. — You need to view it in the surface fixed frame but burn pro/retro in the centered inertial frame
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DRVeyl. — I think siimav is looking for something that would: detect when (mean) orbital elements vary by a configurable delta, plot a correction maneuver to return them to desired values, and execute that maneuver (preferably under high time warp and with the vessel unloaded).
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DRVeyl. —
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DRVeyl. — Getting the last in a way that integrated with principia nicely is the biggest hurdle?
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Damien. — I think the easiest version of that (getting the mean elements and getting MJ to plot something to do it live) is the only semi realistic option
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Damien. — But even that isn't close from what Lamont says about principia compatibility thus far
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Butcher. — What happened to show manoeuvre on NavBall? Seems to be gone in fermat?
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Sir Mortimer. — Nope still there
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Butcher. — Hmm, mine is gone.
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egg. — @DRVeyl all of those are big hurdles though
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egg. — You either need to define a mean element theory or come up with something sufficiently robust (I've been on this for six months); then you have an optimization problem, that's the sort of thing that @lamont has been working on for years
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egg. — and then, yes, you need to integrate with Principia for the last bit
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egg. — Astrodynamics is surprisingly not simple
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Butcher. — @Sir Mortimer Where is it supposed to be? I can't see it in flight planning.
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Sir Mortimer. — somewerhe ... i just know that i downloaded fermat yesterday and that option was there
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Sir Mortimer. — maybe it's tech locked? do you need a DSN upgrade first?
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Butcher. — I didn't before, I think? Or maybe I do, ugh.
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Butcher. — That's going to mess things up if so.
<oeuf>
nothing is tech locked
<oeuf>
we don't interact with the tech tree in any way
<oeuf>
but the manoeuvre needs to be in the future in order for the option to be there
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egg. — if it's entirely in the past, you don't get the option to show it; it's over
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Sir Mortimer. — so you need the first upgrade to DSN and Mission Control
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Butcher. — Yeah, I don't have cash for that.
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Butcher. — I'll make a fudge version of my kOS script where I just type in the numbers and it approximates. 😉
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siimav. — For RP-1 it's probably MC upgrade + 2xTS upgrades
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Butcher. — Yes, you need TS to level 3 for patched conics, plus MC for flight planning.
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Butcher. — Which is about another 500k?
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egg. — @Butcher I think you only need patchy conics
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Sir Mortimer. — i usually award myself with enough money from the start for the first bunch of building upgrades.
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Butcher. — I have tweaked my manoeuvring script, it should be able to rough guess a burn from just typing in numbers, I think.
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Butcher. — Also, time to fix direct ascent burns. 😉
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<discord->
lamont. — yeah i keep getting distracted
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lamont. — decided that PVG is fundamentally flawed and need to scrap it and start over again (mathematicslly) more or less
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egg. — @lamont okay but not before adding J2
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egg. — because I want to know whether the API works :-)
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egg. — (also because that should be a fairly small change, and it should be a very noticeable improvement when launching for oblate planets)
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lamont. — direct transcript would make all that so much easier
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lamont. — no effing costate / primer vector equation
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Kobymaru. — so now that one of my biggest gripes with the Principia UI (editing multiple maneuvers in a flight plan) is implemented fermat, how long until I can ask for the next quality of life fixes? 😬
<discord->
Kobymaru. — so now that one of my biggest gripes with the Principia UI (editing multiple maneuvers in a flight plan) is implemented in fermat, how long until I can ask for the next quality of life fixes? 😬 (edited)
<discord->
Kobymaru. — so now that one of my biggest gripe with the Principia UI (editing multiple maneuvers in a flight plan) is implemented in fermat, how long until I can ask for the next quality of life fixes? 😬 (edited)
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Kobymaru. — (silly users... you fix one thing and they keep wanting more)
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<discord->
Kobymaru. — something really strange is happening at phobos
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Kobymaru. — if I go below 2715m while at time warp, my vessel just freezes in place. When I go off rails, the spacecraft goes on but the camera stays in place
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Kobymaru. — glog INFO, WARNING and ERROR are empty
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Butcher. — Camera is at a lagrange point.
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egg. — @Kobymaru INFO is never empty; by "empty" you mean that there is nothing that you think is related, but you could be mistaken in your analysis of the INFO traces
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egg. — @Kobymaru also, screenshots of the trajectory would be somewhat useful
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<discord->
Kobymaru. — well it was "empty" in the sense of having a size of 0 Bytes. Now it's bigger though