egg|nomz|egg changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> egg|nomz|egg: generally if your eyes are dewing over, that's not the weather. | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer.
<bofh> egg|zzz|egg: uh. yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: so I guess their cbrt is the one from the arm directory? that's all there is in the opensource libm release (well there's the powerpc one but it looks like kahan-but-worse)
<kmath> <volatile_void> @stephentyrone @UINT_MIN @mediaptera Once you've decided to compute with twice the precision bits, interval arithme… https://t.co/PlMRnkVzBc
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: unrelated: principia has an issue where large saves make things slow, presumably because KSP parses them shittily
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: so we might do some compression, but there's another thing: we currently store the principia data in hex
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: presumably the slowness is from a shitty parser in C# rather than reading the file (it's not that big a file)
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: so this means we should encode the save data in base32768
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: this will not confuse users in the slightest,
<UmbralRaptop> aaaaaaa
<bofh> egg|zzz|egg: just do base85. or not bother at all and save as raw binary?
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: because it goes into a KSP cfg file
<bofh> yes but it's *save* data, not config data. presumably you can convert that as-needed instead of upon saving?
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: and base85 is not very dense UTF-16, which is where the slowness likely occurs (in KSP's shitty parsing)
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: the KSP save is a cfg file, in KSP's ConfigNode format
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<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: looks like this https://gist.github.com/symmeclept/e5cf8dde0402fcb95590a7cd7b6fd82f. Principia dumps a bunch of hex strings in its own node in there
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<bofh> egg|zzz|egg: oh, your slowdown is in *KSP's* parsing, not in *Principia's* parsing. oops.
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: yeah Principia's parsing is currently hex decoding + protobuf deserialization
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: after those changes it will be base32768 decoding + gipfeli decompression + protobuf deserialization
<egg|zzz|egg> clearly this is a very sane format,
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<bofh> gipfeli? why not just DEFLATE?
<kmath> <Bodegacats_> https://t.co/7K9SHQMu5h
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: because croissants
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<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: looking at some benchmarks, seems deflate behaves more like brotli, we're still looking for something fast both ways
<bofh> ehh, for a file that size, does it matter?
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: I mean tbh we could also pick brotly
<egg|zzz|egg> s/ly/li
<Qboid> egg|zzz|egg meant to say: bofh: I mean tbh we could also pick brotli
<egg|zzz|egg> but then there's a parameter to tune and that's more work :-p
<bofh> I mean I was going for gzip b/c zlib is easy, common as hell and the format is widely supported
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: so like we're encoding our protos and passing that through base32768 so widely supported doesn't help much
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: and since we're on windows building one of those things is not harder than the other tbh
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: might as well go with the one whose code style resembles ours :-p
<bofh> I... suppose.
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: also they have cute names
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: if you want deflate + cute name (and slow) there's zopfli
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: also TIL there's a JPEG thing called guetzli
<bofh> rofl
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: yes the people who develop those are in switzerland, what gave it away :-p
* UmbralRaptor copies 2/3 of a TiB via USB 2.0 for backup porpoises.
<bofh> egg|zzz|egg: "It is named after the Swiss German expression for Biscuits" ahh
<bofh> "While Google's zopfli implementation of the deflate compression algorithm is named after a Swiss German word for a braided sweet bread and literally means "little plait", brotli is a Swiss German word for a bread roll and literally means "small bread"."
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: and Gipfeli is croissant, which means "small peak" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gipfel
<egg|zzz|egg> "which" in the above refers to gipfeli, not croissant
<egg|zzz|egg> (croissant is obviously cognate to crescent, comes from croître (to grow))
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<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: clearly English should have monotone crescent functions instead of "increasing"
<bofh> I mean, I agree.
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: why is the cat angry https://twitter.com/stephentyrone/status/982064042570170368
<kmath> <stephentyrone> @bofh453 Zopfli is data compression software that encodes data into DEFLATE, gzip and zlib formats. ⏎ ⏎ fuuuuuuuuck.
<bofh> b/c Zopfli is (and I agree) nowhere near novel or interesting enough to deserve its own ENTIRE WIKIPEDIA PAGE. maybe a few mentions on the page for DEFLATE, not more.
<egg|zzz|egg> yeah, there are wikipedia pages for weird things tho
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<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: it took me a while to realize that Zopf actually means braid, not just the braided bread, and that the Zopfgruppe are not actually swiss-bread groups
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: although I still think we should call the identity the n-baguette :-p
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: fwiw the german convention for ASCIIifying umlauts is appending an e, so "zopfli" and "brotli" would look extremely weird if they were german words; this is a bit muddled by the fact that Swiss german has vowel umlaut + e which is not a thing in high german
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: e.g. Üetliberg
<egg|zzz|egg> that doesn't get transliterated to ueetliberg because that would be too silly
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: [ˈyə̯tliˌb̥ɛːrɡ̊], the umlaut gives you the [y] rather than [u] and the next e is a separate vowel
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: speaking of which do you know about the solar system https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uetliberg#/media/File:Albis_-_Planetenweg_-_Sonne_(Uetliberg)_IMG_6044.JPG
<bofh> 01:38:14 <@egg|zzz|egg> bofh: it took me a while to realize that Zopf actually means braid, not just the braided bread, and that the Zopfgruppe are not actually swiss-bread groups
<bofh> ROFL
<bofh> Yeah that makes sense, since umlaut is a vowel phonological shift, but that doesn't prevent another vowel from following it :P
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: yeah, but then ueetliberg is silly :-p
<egg|zzz|egg> UEEE-tliberg
<bofh> LOL
<egg|zzz|egg> !wpn whitequark, котя, and the котяchrome kitten
* Qboid gives whitequark, котя, and the котяchrome kitten a walrus
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<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: okay I have a proof that my method does not round correctly :-p
<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: on 1 000 000 random values, one rounded incorrectly
<egg|laptop|egg> 0.50004 ULPs
<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: now that I think of it maybe I should compute more than 5 sig. dec. on the number of ULPs, perhaps I'm missing some misroundings that way
<bofh> *one*? what value, if you know?
<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: on second thought there may be more than one, it's just that for all others the number of ULPs was below 0.500005; lemme fetch the value
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<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: 4078731956257/549755813888
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<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: my method computes 4391857331832067/2251799813685248 for it
<kmath> <SVKaiser> System Shock source code has been released on Github! ⏎ https://t.co/zDRTaPCoVV
<SnoopJeDi> !
<SnoopJeDi> I never played either of them, but Deus Ex was faaaantastic so I'm betting I'd like the System Shocks
<bofh> egg|laptop|egg: huh. there doesn't appear to be anything special about that particular value at first glance
<SnoopJeDi> I kind of assume I may just end up waiting until the remake
<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: compute the cube root of 4078731956257/549755813888 and you'll see
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<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: the exact value is
<egg|laptop|egg> 0|01111111111|1111001101001011110111110000010101100000101000000101;0111111111111101...
<egg|laptop|egg> 0|01111111111|1111001101001011110111110000010101100000101000000110;
<egg|laptop|egg> is what I compute
<bofh> oh eeeeeeeew.
<bofh> (also really we only need mantissas here)
<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: yes but I'm not patching my soft-float package to not print exponents just for that, this code is already weird
<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: remember that you have 1/3 bits on the guess, so 2/3 of the bits of the correction term are in the actual result; this nearly exhausts the remaining precision
<bofh> Yeah, I see.
<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: but it's highly unlikely, so if you had a way to detect that you are near something like that you could go for something slower and get a correctly-rounded method
<bofh> yep. hmm.
<bofh> (unrelated but uh http://mpd.southwestmicrowave.com/news/index.php?news=184 WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY)
<rqou> random question: does anybody here know off the top of their head a "good" algorithm to compute solutions to riccati differential equations?
<rqou> hopefully one that can run on a potato-quality microcontroller
<rqou> use case is for LQR obviously
<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: okay, further inspection (10 sig. dec. on the number of ULPs) reveals that there are actually 9 incorrect roundings out of this million evaluations
<egg|laptop|egg> bofh: the errors range from 0.5000026649 ULPs with the input 7762370939317/1099511627776 to 0.5000369176 ULPs with the one above
<bofh> rqou: https://epubs.siam.org/doi/abs/10.1137/0902010?journalCode=sijcd4 is what I use and I think a potato-quality microcontroller can do QR decomp via Householder reduction to upper Hessenberg followed by standard QR fine
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<rqou> hrm, i know some of those words... oh wait i don't :P
* rqou googles
<bofh> rqou: SGEQRF (tho you prolly want SGEQR2 directly on a microcontroller).
<rqou> also, random numerics question: are there sin/cos functions that don't use double (float64) in any of the steps and uses only float32? the one i looked at from musl does
<rqou> *does need float64
<whitequark> rqou: hmmm I think yes
<rqou> bofh: wtf is that some random fortran routine?
<whitequark> ah no
<bofh> rqou: I have some if you need them, https://github.com/shibatch/sleef/blob/master/src/libm/sleefsp.c has a decent impl as long as you don't need to compute inputs > ~256*\pi, https://github.com/JuliaLang/openlibm/blob/master/src/k_cosf.c is the standard impl (you need k_cosf.c, k_sinf.c, e_rem_pio2f.c, k_rem_pio2f.c and then s_sinf.c/s_cosf.c).
<bofh> (mine uses k_cos/k_sinf but replaces k_rem_pio2f.c with a much faster reimplementation of Payne-Hanek, but I can't find where I put it, might not have it on my office machine)
<rqou> hmm, so that k_cosf.c that you linked seems to be identical to the code musl uses
<rqou> that requires float64
<egg|phone|egg> It's the usual sun thing
<bofh> rqou: oh wtf
<bofh> rqou: literally just %s/double/float/ on that
<rqou> are you sure?
<bofh> yes. your error will be no more than 1ULP on [0,\pi/2]. I tested this.
<egg|phone|egg> Bofh: but what incorrectness rate
<bofh> now I hope they do sane arg reduction and don't just force the double path on that always, b/c if they do I need to find a saner old impl of that.
<bofh> egg|phone|egg: high in the immediate nbhd of \pi/4 and \pi/2, nonexistent otherwise.
<egg|phone|egg> Huh neat
<rqou> ok, i will probably be asking for some more help with numerics soonish
<egg|phone|egg> It's nice to have an FP type where you can try all the values :-p
<bofh> egg|phone|egg: so like it's cos. one of those is a root, the other very close to 1.
<bofh> and yeah I love it :D
<egg|phone|egg> Binary128ftw
<egg|phone|egg> (Why are we stuck with double doubles in this day and age)
<rqou> ibm?
<whitequark> double trouble
* egg|phone|egg wants quads
<rqou> to protect the world from devastation :P
<bofh> you *must* bite both sandwiches at the same time.
<egg|phone|egg> :D
<rqou> anyways, I'm using a potato that only has float16/float32
<egg|phone|egg> Bofh: can vectorisation help double double
<bofh> egg|phone|egg: not really, vectorization is completely orthogonal to double-double.
<bofh> rqou: yeah I've done that before. float32 is enough for a lot of purposes tbh.
<rqou> i heard rumors that you can't reach the moon with only float32?
<egg|phone|egg> Astronomical screams
<bofh> yeah so like I would not want to do orbital calc with only float32, jfc.
<rqou> so my Arduino can't reach the moon? :P
<whitequark> pretty sure it can
<whitequark> just simulate Apollo Guidance Computer ont i
<whitequark> should be fast enough
<rqou> lolol
<rqou> btw it's amazing how much more comprehensible agc assembly is (at least to me) once you replace the extremely archaic mnemonics with "modern" "arm/intel-like" ones
<bofh> Yeah, I'm not surprised tbh.
<UmbralRaptop> bleah, I still have no idea what to do when my 5X dies https://twitter.com/astarasikov/status/982048638733111296
<kmath> <astarasikov> @CopperheadOS Nexus 5X has an extremely thin PCB which is not sturdy and overheating or just twisting the phone sli… https://t.co/i1yqyNYMBL
<UmbralRaptop> Well, replacement 5X. The first one got replaced despite being out of warranty because bootloop of death.
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<egg|zzz|egg> !wpn whitequark
* Qboid gives whitequark an unitary otter
<egg|zzz|egg> !wpn rqou
* Qboid gives rqou a Stern-Gerlach int category with an atom attachment
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<UmbralRaptop> !wpn egg|zzz|egg
* Qboid gives egg|zzz|egg a feathered quartz sheep
<egg|zzz|egg> !wpn UmbralRaptop
* Qboid gives UmbralRaptop a continental icosahedron
<bofh> https://twitter.com/NWSLincolnIL/status/982194367229120512 the local NWS continuing to go further loopy
<kmath> <✔NWSLincolnIL> Winter has to end sometime, but it won't be this weekend. Snow accumulations likely again Sunday night. #ILwx https://t.co/fztIa95f4E
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: how would you compute the error (in fractional ULPs) of a cube root quickly? I've been doing this with Mathematica but for more than a million values it takes an eternity
<egg|zzz|egg> admittedly at this point I should just try to do a proper error analysis
<kmath> <stephentyrone> @griotspeak "Structured Programming with go to Statements"
<bofh> egg|zzz|egg: good question, I actually don't know. also on that note, let me translate that assembly by hand now.
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: I managed to semiautomatically translate it to MASM
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: but it's a cbrtf so I can't really do much with it
<egg|zzz|egg> I mean I could benchmark a cbrtf against a cbrt, but comparing the roundings isn't going to be helpful (it's correctly-rounded as a cbrtf)
<bofh> Well yeah, also a cbrtf is much simpler to compute tbh due to the decreased mantissa precision.
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: so I'm not sure what to do with this cbrtf in the end
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: it seems the only cbrt remotely involving atlas that I can find in the arm one with his table and polynomial
<bofh> yeah I'm a bit confused, I think it might actually be someone else extending his single prec. methodology
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: I can find no other cbrt so I guess that's the one they have though?
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: also if his polynomials make a decent cbrt, aren't they overkill for even a correctly-rounded cbrtf?
<bofh> almost certainly, yeah.
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<APlayer> What does a star in mathematical notation mean? Context: q⁽⁻¹⁾ = q* / ||q|| where q is a Quaternion
<APlayer> q⁽⁻¹⁾ = q* / ||q||² even
<egg|zzz|egg> in this context it's the conjugate
<egg|zzz|egg> also sometimes bar
<egg|zzz|egg> q̄
<egg|zzz|egg> TESS?
<Qboid> egg|zzz|egg: [TESS] => Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite
<SnoopJeDi> yea it's a fairly ambiguous symbol
<egg|zzz|egg> !wpn bofh
* Qboid gives bofh a sub-calibre Carnot spider
<bofh> are there analogous spiders for other thermodynamic cycles?
<egg|zzz|egg> probably
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<APlayer> egg: Ah, got it. Thanks!
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<awang> !wpn -add:adj LaTeX
<Qboid> awang: Adjective added!
<bofh> wait that wasn't *already* an adjective?!
<egg|zzz|egg> !wpn -add:adj TeX
<Qboid> egg|zzz|egg: Adjective added!
<egg|zzz|egg> !wpn -add:adj XeTeX
<Qboid> egg|zzz|egg: Adjective added!
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: https://twitter.com/tef_ebooks/status/981910034815881216 I should have done my interviews in Ada
<kmath> <tef_ebooks> "we don't have a preference for the language (or languages) you use during the interview" ⏎ ⏎ I'm ready https://t.co/yJBAnMXn74
<egg|zzz|egg> (tbh my Ada is more than a bit rusty so probably not a good idea)
<bofh> I mean had I the choice in any of the tech interviews I went to for laughs I would 100% have done it in Fortran 90.
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: nah, FORTRAN 77 or earlier or gtfo
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: fixed-form FORTRAN on a whiteboard sounds entertaining
<bofh> That sounds unnecessarily irritating :P
<bofh> BUT YES ALL CAPS IS THE ONLY CORRECT WAY TO WRITE FORTRAN
<egg|zzz|egg> C WHY DO YOU HAVE LETTERS IN THE LABEL COLUMNS
<UmbralRaptor> Wait, AWK seems more appropriate than perverse, depending on the job. (say, sysadmin?)
<SnoopJeDi> you probably wouldn't write any samples for such a job
<SnoopJeDi> s/job/interview/
<Qboid> SnoopJeDi meant to say: you probably wouldn't write any samples for such a interview
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: also Prolog sounds like a fun job interview troll (it would also troll Sarbian)
<SnoopJeDi> "no, Patrick, emacs is not a language"
<bofh> "but you can do video editing in it!"
<SnoopJeDi> that's the starfish Patrick not the diaspid sort
<SnoopJeDi> bofh, someone made a very compelling spacemacs pitch to me two weeks ago
<SnoopJeDi> but learning a new editor sounds just awful, hjkl has warped my brain
<bofh> oh gods I am both curious and slightly apprehensive
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: I mean if somebody asks you to write a fizzbuzz or some similarly silly thing might as well troll them with
<egg|zzz|egg> FORMAT (4HFIZZ)
<bofh> egg|zzz|egg: lmfao
<SnoopJeDi> bofh, we were discussing literate programming and spacemacs's org mode came up
<SnoopJeDi> I think we were talking about Jupyter and wandered into literate programming proper heh
<SnoopJeDi> Maybe the topic was something like the Hydrogen plugin
<SnoopJeDi> being able to mix/match contexts for different parts of the document and refer to them in a reactive programming sort of way is kinda neat, but yea overall it sounds like way too steep a learning curve rn
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: why is there no FORTRAN in godbolt
<bofh> egg|zzz|egg: good question
<bofh> "Given the strong NII emission, we infer roughly solar metallicity for my butt, ruling out an origin due to infall of primordial gas." *snicker*
<bofh> "My Butt spans ∼10′×3′ (25×7.5 kpc) in size and has no stellar counterpart;" #SirMixALot
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: I wonder whether it would be feasible to compute the x^3-y in x87 extended precision, which would allow clobbering fewer than 36 bits and thus improve roundings
<bofh> egg|zzz|egg: yes, but at immense perf cost
<egg|zzz|egg> ah
<bofh> (you have to move domains from XMM to the fp stack, and x87 is pretty slow on modern Intel due to lack of caring about it)
<bofh> (well, slow relative to single/double XMM)
<egg|zzz|egg> argh
<egg|zzz|egg> OK so detection of iffy cases and then multiprecision of sorts is the way to go then
<egg|zzz|egg> also I need to actually do the error analysis
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: or maybe to trick you into doing an error analysis because I'm not sure how to do that decently
<bofh> I'd start with the error analysis, and it's somewhat tricky in this case; I'd honestly ask Atlas for pointers since I'd have to do the same myself, it's been awhile.
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<bofh> argh I wish I had less of a clusterfuck in my research right now and/or more free time (or reliable functioning below 3-4hrs of sleep/night). Sigh. :(
* egg|zzz|egg waves a black hole near bofh's research
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: so I guess the things to figure out are the max lengths of sequences of 0 or 1 after the round bit in the exact result, and the rounding error in the rational function evaluation https://github.com/eggrobin/Principia/blob/cbrt-benchmarks/benchmarks/cbrt.cpp#L176-L178
<bofh> it's the latter that I'm not sure how to do, mostly.
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: yeah, error analysis is hard
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: we need more cats
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: also do you have any idea where "useful cats notation" was from
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<kmath> <bofh453> @chordowl Chaotic Good: CPⁿ under the Fubini-Study metric ⏎ Neutral Good: n-Sphere ⏎ Lawful Good: Euclidean ℝⁿ ⏎ Chaotic… https://t.co/bdI40UgBP6
<SnoopJeDi> AdS fall under LG on that chart?
<bofh> Yeah, I'd say so.
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: made an other run of one million inputs, 4 incorrect roundings
<bofh> egg|zzz|egg: re: useful cats notation, no idea (actually first I've heard that term, heh).
<egg|zzz|egg> bofh: https://twitter.com/QuantPhComments/status/956579922784411648 is there a way to look at all the papers that were submitted to quant-ph on a particular day?
<kmath> <QuantPhComments> useful cats notation
<egg|zzz|egg> also where is my phone
<egg|zzz|egg> egg
<egg|zzz|egg> hmm, not in this room
<egg|zzz|egg> egg
<egg|zzz|egg> :-/
<bofh> https://twitter.com/bofh453/status/982344648126615552 well glad to see differential geometry is just as insane as real analysis sometimes
<kmath> <bofh453> (a small exotic ℝ⁴ is a space that is homeomorphic to, but not diffeomorphic to Euclidean ℝ⁴ *that can nevertheless… https://t.co/QFjesljgPB
<UmbralRaptor> <egg|phone|egg> ≡ 0
<kmath> <✔tmobileat> @c_pellegrino @PWTooStrong @Telekom_hilft Hello Claudia! The customer service agents see the first four characters… https://t.co/ptOIRbZRIT
<kmath> <SketchesbyBoze> I have eaten the pomegranate seeds ⏎ that I found on a stone ⏎ and which you were probably using ⏎ to imprison me in the… https://t.co/fyHMX3X5ln
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* UmbralRaptor chooses to believe that whitequark found an FPGA made with components from wickedlasers.
<kmath> <jamesheathers> The total pig-headed refusal to die under strenuous circumstances. https://t.co/XUGxniNu3N
<UmbralRaptor> Wait, are you leading the zombies?
<bofh> No, the humans, but aren't most grad students one step removed from p-zombies anyhow?
<UmbralRaptor> uh
<UmbralRaptor> Well, this does explain I often feel like I'm not a real person, but others around me are.