egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao-> ⟨Farrier⟩ Maybe
<queqiao-> Yes
<queqiao-> ⟨Farrier⟩ After you learn how to use it's not that hard
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<queqiao-> ⟨Farrier⟩ Sometimes even easier
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<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ but for example i lack the tooling of MJ manevuers painful
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ simple bi hohman is not 3 clicks away..
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ otherwise- way more realistic and challenging
<queqiao-> ⟨theeo⟩ ⟪Farrier⟫ Sometimes even easier ⮪ yeah imo rendezvous is easier with principia
<queqiao-> ⟨theeo⟩ if not easier then at least less annoying
<queqiao-> ⟨siimav⟩ How can it be easier than clicking a button or 2 in MJ?
<queqiao-> ⟨Mayo⟩ It made planetary transfers much easier for me
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ this is unfriendly 😄 it was really painful to set transfer trajectory - is there a place when during adjustment i can see periapsis, apoapsis, and velocities relative to target body and hopefully visualized trajectory ?
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ Right click the periapsis
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ Also this is why the declutter button was added, you can use it to remove unnecessary celestials
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ or is it left click? not sure, click it anyway and it will show how high is the periapsis and the relative velocity
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ yeah it sticks - tha is nice- it would be helpful to see phantom body around that pe/ap in visualization right now it revolves around empty space
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ but i managed to do it i hope
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ phantom body? which body?
<queqiao-> ⟨leudaimon⟩ ⟪bajtec⟫ yeah it sticks - tha is nice- it would […] ⮪ I do the whole planning on VSO, no phantom bodies there
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ venus 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ venus isn't revolving around anything in VCI, it's fixed in that frame
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ right now i see venus point- but using sun synchronous like in stock i would like to see that venus too- virtual at that time
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ that was helpful to see venus point at that point
<queqiao-> ⟨leudaimon⟩ you can have the maneouvre in ECI, and the plotting frame in VSO or VCI, and you get everything you need
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ yes that is doable 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ Does it show the periapsis altitude above venus in VSO?
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ I'm just saying it would be helpful to see body in VSO, it would help especially with gravity assist scenarios, as point of reference 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨leudaimon⟩ but you do see the body, not sure what you're talking about
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ this
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ venus is shows where it is now
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ when you move timing, there is no body wisualized relative to pe or ap
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ * shown
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ ⟪test_account⟫ venus is shown where it is now ⮪ exactly, but i want to see whre it is then 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ at pe for example
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ yes, it would be nice to have celestials shown at some future moment... but which one?
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ i'd color one for pe and one for ap. or when you left click at point then it is showed
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ just to have an option or on moue over over trajectory
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ that was helpful in stock
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ manevuer at time and speed at particular point body position etc
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ ah, i see, show the celestial where it will be at periapsis
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ There is a small problem though that the trajectory may contain several periapses
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ so you can mouse over or select partuicular point and then display
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ select point at trajectory and display relative to that point
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ for exalpe if i want to have gravity assist, then it is very important to see that in solar reference, as vector and velocity of the body is essential
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ otherwise it is working around limitations which is painful , or i do not know how to do it better maybe ? 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ when i'm in solar orbit it is shown. and also something strange, if i break 857m/s then ill end up in better orbit, even though i have not seen this option before departure. Unless this is in different referenc point and it is prograde when i launched.. which is actually possible. ? 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ Neither trajectory looks good tbh
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ The 857m/s burn is in VCI frame, which is generally not good, this frame should be used for maneuvers only if the maneuver is close to Venus
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ might be- i'm having hard time finding myself around. but i'm persistent to learn
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ ⟪test_account⟫ ah, i see, show the celestial where it […] ⮪ This makes no sense, because if we show the apsis at all, you are in a reference frame where that body doesn’t move.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Thus, it always has been and always will be where it currently is.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ ⟪bajtec⟫ exactly, but i want to see whre it is […] ⮪ so the answer to that is « in the same place ».
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ Not sure what reference frame is this picture? It has periapsis and apoapsis but Venus seems to be moving
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ We are showing apsides with respect to Venus, so Venus isn’t moving. This is probably VCI since the DN isn’t Sun-coloured.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ ⟪bajtec⟫ I'm just saying it would be helpful to […] ⮪ The basic idea of reference frame usage in Principia is that if you care about where something is, you use a reference frame where it doesn’t move. Thus if you care about doing things that involve Venus, you pick a reference frame centred on Venus.
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ ⟪egg⟫ We are showing apsides with respect to […] ⮪ If it was VCI the sun would be moving, but it isn't, so it must be VSO. Still Venus should not move in that frame 🤔
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ ok, but if i'm interested in a manevuer where i use relative velocities of bodies, then it is helpful to seeit in "normal" solar centered view when plotting trajectory. then i see where i depart and then where intersect with a body at specific tme, then i can "see" vectors by knowing their direction - more interesting case is when i want to do jupiter gravity assist and i do care about both bodies.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ ⟪test_account⟫ If it was VCI the sun would be moving, […] ⮪ The Sun might have been decluttered.
<queqiao-> ⟨scimas⟩ The discussion sounds similar to this https://discord.com/channels/319857228905447436/480397772248580098/997826754565648425
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ ⟪scimas⟫ The discussion sounds similar to this […] ⮪ exactly
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ ⟪bajtec⟫ ok, but if i'm interested in a manevuer […] ⮪ JSO and the like are for the case where you also care about the Sun.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ ⟪scimas⟫ The discussion sounds similar to this […] ⮪ yes, but here the requester has yet to learn the basic mechanics of reference frame, so it is a somewhat different situation.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ * frames,
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ well in my simple mind when i look at solar system it is more intuitive than in other reference points. Stock behavior in that sense was very nice - i just miss that easily readable format, i'm not saying current is wrong, it is perfect in many scenarios, but when i plan long trips i would like to know where bodies would be at that time so during mouseover my trajectory i would like to see phantom bodies at that point 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ when i move cursor over trajectory i can see where things are - i know in stock it only referenced encounters, but this would be awsomely better
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Sure, but that’s not a feature that exists—nor one that would be easy to implement.
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ hmm so maybe onlytarget body and relative velocity at mouseover ?
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ pe, ap ?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Suggesting simplifications to a feature request isn’t going to be useful if you don’t know what parts of it are difficult.
<queqiao-> In any case, Principia plays differently from stock, and part of that is that you end up looking at things from many different reference frames all the time.
<queqiao-> This is unfamiliar at first; but this is really a fundamental difference with stock in how we want to present things.
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ ⟪egg⟫ Suggesting simplifications to a feature […] ⮪ well i know too little about principia to argue here. It seems i need to use what i have and try to figure it out on my own.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ If you’re jumping between reference frames all the time, you’re doing it right :-)
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ I do , but neither has the data i need, or i just have not found the right one or a button or sth.
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ btw- how to make purple line longer ?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ The fuchsia line is the prediction; so you want to either increase its tolerance (to have a less-precise but longer prediction for the same cost) or increase its number of steps (the computational cost).
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ which parameter defines those values ? max steps per segment ? tolerance is visible
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ We are talking about the prediction. The settings you are mentioning are the settings for the flight plan (the dashed periwinkle blue line).
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ The prediction settings are in the main window.
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ ah ok. - now i found it.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ ⟪bajtec⟫ I do , but neither has the data i need, […] ⮪ Well, you have been pointed to the VSO frame. Then you asked to see where Venus is in VSO, but you see it already, because it just sits there.
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ yes, i know this is from venus stand point, but when i plan manevuer, i would like to see solar system perspective, as it gives you an indication what kind of orbit you will actually make in solar reference with relative velocities. it is simply very intuitive. and to have this phantom venus on mouseover (maybe whole olar system if possible) would give me clues if i can plan something, or use different options. Right now it feels...
<queqiao-> ... blind in grand scale. Again it is my subjective perception.
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ for this venus mission it is not really something useful, but how about venus gravity assist to mars ?
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ or recreating voyager probe slingshots ?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Then instead of hovering, you switch between VSO, MSO, and HCI.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ And you get used to the look and feel of transfers in VSO/MSO.
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ one way to achieve more or less what you want is adjusting light plan length, you will see where the trajectories of elestials end at the end of the flight plan
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ * flight
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ * celestials
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ ok, then i have a lot to learn about the interface then 🙂 let me crackthat and get back with results/ feedback.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ And you get used to the look and feel […] ⮪ It might be useful to have a page on the wiki with diagrams of what standard transfers look like in various frames.
<queqiao-> People come here having spent years learning to look at everything with conics (in HCI for interplanetary transfers) which is why they are seen as more intuitive; so I suspect they could use a crash course in « this is what a hohmann transfer looks like », « this is what a k:n resonance looks like ».
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ yup 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨bajtec⟩ full circle 😉
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