egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<queqiao-> ⟨xPROxSLASHERx⟩ Ahh... _face-palm_ lol makes sense! I was just checking before placing any parts so I guess I restarted my game for no reason 🤣
<queqiao-> ⟨YaBoiAnt⟩ ⟪test_account⟫ Typical WAC might work, but short upper […] ⮪ this helped greatly thankyou so much! shortened the bee stage to a stub like that one and boom almost 4000km downrange
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<_whitenotifier-7bc1> [Principia] pleroy closed pull request #3467: A benchmark for multi-level single linkage - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/pull/3467
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<queqiao-> ⟨ThatSkyGuy260⟩ How exactly do you download Principia?
<queqiao-> ⟨ThatSkyGuy260⟩ I can't seem to figure it out
<queqiao-> ⟨Vlood⟩ ⟪ThatSkyGuy260⟫ How exactly do you download Principia? ⮪ Sacrifice an apple to newton's ghost
<_whitenotifier-7bc1> [Principia] pleroy opened pull request #3468: Optimize the optimization code - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/pull/3468
<_whitenotifier-7bc1> [Principia] pleroy closed pull request #3468: Optimize the optimization code - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/pull/3468
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ Anyone got any advice on why ksp is being so laggy with principia? my cpu cores are not maxed or anything
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ Also anyone kow how i can plan a free return from the moon ?
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ 1. Is one core maxed? Even with principia this is the expected behavior. There’s always a limiting thread. 2. You’re probably trying to fly too close to the moon
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ this is generally the max i see
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ this is generally the max i see Marsh
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ Unfortunately it doesn’t tell the whole story due to how it handles logical vs physical processors. Visually it appears pretty closed to maxed out on one of the cores
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ doesnt seem that close to me?
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ only happneded after installing prinipia
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ * principia
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ You only have half the number of processors that are listed here. Because there’s twice as many you don’t get double the performance. If each thread is working at 50% the core is actually at 100%. If you look at core 3 and 4 and add them together that’s pretty close to 100%
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ ⟪Marsh⟫ You only have half the number of […] ⮪ Hmmm thats fair, how do i decrease that usage then? or is it just not a thing i can do with principia atm?
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ This graph is pretty similar to mine with hyper threading turned off. There’s one spiked core but overall the cpu isn’t working very hard
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ With principia you can increase performance by getting rid of old vessels and debris
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ It's actually very interesting - if one logical processor will be at 100% load, will the OS give him the resources of the entire core or it still has to share them with something else?
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ ⟪Marsh⟫ This graph is pretty similar to mine […] ⮪ can i turn hyper threading on ?
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ * would
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ And calls it something different, but you can go into the bios and shut it off. It can increase single thread performance by a tiny bit (like 2% or something)
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ * Amd
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ * would
<queqiao-> ⟨Al₂Me₆⟩ ⟪Marsh⟫ Amd calls it something different, but […] ⮪ It's SMT (simultaneous multithreading) in AMD-land, which is the technical, non-marketing term.
<queqiao-> I don't think it's advisable to turn that off.
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ Maybe. That’s what people say, and yet there’s nothing the average end user needs 16 cores for
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ there is nothing that a non-server PC would need 16 cores for
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ Personally I shut it off at 8 or more physical cores, but either way the performance gains or losses are small for most people
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ if its only 2% i dont think its gonna work enough
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ ⟪test_account⟫ It's actually very interesting - if one […] ⮪ The short answer is, it depends. Sometimes it’ll shut the second thread down and only use one thread per core, other times not. I don’t think the OS or bios necessarily knows what’s better. For example I do video encoding, it’ll max out 10 (or 16) physical cores with or without threading turned on
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ The main KSP thread or process definitely needs to have a dedicated core... if it doesn't then these logical processors make the game slower, not faster
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ If at all possible, I would switch this to 8 logical processors on 8 cores
<queqiao-> ⟨rnlahaye⟩ Take a trace and see what is actually consuming cpu?
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ Doing the threading has a small performance cost. Ultimately you need or should do real world testing to find what works better for you. Most games are written with the expectation of 6 or 8 threads. If you have that many cores, you’re good. But if you have less, you should have threading on otherwise it’s really going to hurt performance.
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ (Even so thread use drops off dramatically after the first few)
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ ⟪rnlahaye⟫ Take a trace and see what is actually […] ⮪ how do i do that?
<queqiao-> ⟨Al₂Me₆⟩ ⟪rnlahaye⟫ Take a trace and see what is actually […] ⮪ (It's likely not productive to speculate about what the cpu scheduler is or is not doing without actual data. 'It's laggy' isn't exactly informative.)
<queqiao-> ⟨Al₂Me₆⟩ -likely
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ TDL theres no way for me to increase performance?
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ or switch to a more powerful per core cpu
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ One thing you might be able to do is force KSP to run on one thread and nothing else. I’m not sure if that will force principia to use that thread too, which would be bad. I have played games in the past which recommended that. But with principia, get rid of old craft and debris. With nothing in orbit it’s pretty tame
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ i mean its red even with this small of a craft
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ ⟪Marsh⟫ One thing you might be able to do is […] ⮪ kinda not an option to have nothing in orbit lul
<queqiao-> ⟨Al₂Me₆⟩ ⟪Jexa Jexins⟫ i mean its red even with this small of […] ⮪ Any logspam? Tried a brand new install yet?
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ I meant except what you’re flying and the bare minimum. How does the console look, any spam?
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ how do i look at the logspam ?
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ alt f12
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ doesnt look perticularly bad
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ performance is at the roof
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ wait
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ it looks like memory is at its maxed allowed size?
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ It seems like it should be fine to me. This may be the max of your computer, but also you might have another mod or system process sapping your some of your frames
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ just discord, ksp (and the stupid new launcher) and chrome with only a couple f tabs
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ although deleting crafts from the tracking station is now crashing my game...
<queqiao-> ⟨Itspats (solid lv enthusiast)⟩ ⟪Jexa Jexins⟫ although deleting crafts from the […] ⮪ i also have this issue
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ Well that certainly shouldn’t be the case. Id pursue fixing that problem and see if performance improves
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ ⟪Marsh⟫ Well that certainly shouldn’t be the […] ⮪ ive got the new update to install so ill try that
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ can someone link the latest version? downloaded prinipia-master from git but thats got wayyyy more stuff than my current
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ don't use master, use release...
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ And delete the old folder before merging
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ theres only 1 branch https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ I recommend you read the first paragraph
<queqiao-> ⟨rnlahaye⟩ ⟪Jexa Jexins⟫ how do i do that? ⮪ I'm not sure how to do this on Windows. Maybe someone else here is familiar?
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ updating didnt help the crashing :/ looks like ima have to start again go back to basics
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ ⟪Jexa Jexins⟫ this is generally the max i see Marsh ⮪ Found something interesting about these graphs. The fact that none of the virtual processors are loaded up to 100% means nothing. If I manually set CPU affinity for KSP_x64 process, it immediately starts to use 100% of the CPU allocated to it. Which means that usually this process jumps between CPU's, so none of them are loaded to 100% but this picture does not...
<queqiao-> ... reflect reality.
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ +core
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ * CPU/core
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ * 100%,
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ This is a major reason why i turn threading off, so I can more easilly see what's going on. Tasks normally hop between cpus if possible
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ You mean hyperthreading? But I just don't have that
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ Or SMT. Logical threads
<queqiao-> ⟨siimav⟩ > Tasks normally hop between cpus if possibleWhich is a perfectly reasonable thing to do to reduce hotspots.
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ Yes, I just mean the graphs don't reflect the real single core load
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ I agree. This is mainly a failure of the windows task manager, it does not display load properly
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ In Ubuntu for example tasks have their CPU usage listed by % of a thread/core, so if I see something that's 850%, I know it's using 8.5 threads, even through all the cores are being utilized equally
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ So if KSP_x64 is single core, it will show 100% at max load?
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ * threaded,
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ In Ubuntu that is what I would expect to see. In windows, not at all
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ For example in windows it's possible to load your cpu to 100% but only see 50% in task manager because something something shut off the extra threads for more efficiency but windows doesn't know how to read that
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ If hyperthreading/smt is turned off, the task manager graph is a little more true to life, on a core to core basis. The listed percent for an application, never. It's just stating the % of CPU time it's getting, not the maximum it is capable of getting.
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ If if I had KSP open I'd show you, with it off I have 10 cores and one is almost 100%, which is clearly KSP hitting its threading limits
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ But the game is only using maybe 20% of the CPU in general
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ Also setting CPU affinity seemed to slow down KSP loading time almost twice, not sure why 🤔
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ think ima have to dip out on principia, love the spagetti but its just too intensive for my poor cpu
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ reducing graphics wont help either right due to it not being a graphics isssue but a processing issue
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ I'll have to explore mine later, it always picks a CPU to load, but that could be a win11 or hardware thing.
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ Graphics might help a little, but if performance is fine without principia, then that's the source of the slowdown
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ ⟪Marsh⟫ Graphics might help a little, but if […] ⮪ yeah solid frames without its just too intense on my cpu unfortunately if ksp 2 is not multithreaded ima be so sad.
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ Well whenever you build or upgrade your computer, consider spending money on a fast single thread cpu for KSP if you're still playing. CPU matters a lot more to a KSP gamer than a typical gamer
<queqiao-> ⟨Jexa Jexins⟩ ⟪Marsh⟫ Well whenever you build or upgrade your […] ⮪ if im still playing KSP??? your joking right ive been playing this game longer than ive been out of puberty...
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ But... do they exist? How much faster can a single thread be?
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ +CPU
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ In that case you may want to consider buying a used 5xxx series cpu. I'm not sure how backward compatible it is with AMD but it might slot in to your existing hardware with a bios update.
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ * (single thread) a CPU can
<queqiao-> ⟨siimav⟩ #offtopic💤
<queqiao-> ⟨Butcher⟩ Back on topic.
<umbralraptop> Those are excellent orange tabbies