<cukkoo[m]>
Why the header/thumbnail is still gone thumbnail is ok but header that is not good😢
<cukkoo[m]>
ok the header is fix but the thumbnail
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<RockyTV[m]>
I just had an idea for modpacks
<RockyTV[m]>
when an user creates a modpack and selects a mod, it requests permission to the mod author. the mod author receives an email asking for authorization, then the mod is available in the modpack
<RockyTV[m]>
er, when the author grants the permission request, the mod becomes available in the modpack
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<Darklight[m]>
RockyTV seems like a good way to spam mod authors ;)
<Darklight[m]>
I think we should leave modpacks to .ckan files
<Darklight[m]>
Besides, any open source licence is explicitly granting resistribution
<RockyTV[m]>
what about non-open source licenses? :p
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<VITAS[m]>
i think we could make modpacks if spacedock creats them and not a user because the mod author allowed spacedock to distribute them. there is nothing that says how we do it for as long as all original files are included.
<VITAS[m]>
spacedock isnt different from ckan in that respect
<VITAS[m]>
the question is more like: do we want to implement and offer that function
<VITAS[m]>
ckan btw doesnt help us with a.) mods that arent on ckan b.) games that ckan doesnt support
<VITAS[m]>
i agree that we are all have other things to do than implementing more than the current modpack suport i honestly would remove btw because its not a pack but a list of links
<VITAS[m]>
additional sidenote: a propper modpack support on spacedocks side would stop pople from making their own and uploading those
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<DasSkelett[m]>
@VITAS HebaruSan just put a lot of work into making the modpacks usable again and you are telling us we should remove it all again?
<DasSkelett[m]>
Also y'all are talking about automatically merging the zip files of mods together, do I understand this correctly?
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<VITAS[m]>
In that case ofcause not but we might want to rename them mod list or something similar so people have the right expectations
<VITAS[m]>
yes im talking about a way to merge mods on the server and a ready made mashup file thats downloaded
<VITAS[m]>
im not thinking a bout a specific way how do it yet
<VITAS[m]>
just something where files arent combined by users on their computers and then uploaded (as we have from time to time and remove) but a way where SD does it
<DasSkelett[m]>
This will already be a huge technical challenge. We'd have to account for all the different ways of packaging, and somehow find the parts that should go into GameData and put them together.
<DasSkelett[m]>
We have to somehow deal with mods bundling their dependencies, what if another mod bundles the same dependency? How do we handle conflicting file? What if another mod bundles the same dependency with a different folder name, how can we avoid having it twice in the zip?
<VITAS[m]>
to
<cukkoo[m]>
why other isn't broken
<VITAS[m]>
because they didnt upload PNG with alpha channel
<VITAS[m]>
thats whats broken atm if you use transparency in PNG
<VITAS[m]>
use jpg
<VITAS[m]>
DasSkelett: yes i want thinking about the how yet its more of a political question
<cukkoo[m]>
ok can i just rename it to jpeg or use converter
<VITAS[m]>
cukkoo: save it as jpg renaming wont change it
<cukkoo[m]>
Use photoshop
<VITAS[m]>
yes
<cukkoo[m]>
?
<cukkoo[m]>
ok thank so much
<VITAS[m]>
np
<DasSkelett[m]>
There's a reason CKAN does this part still by hand.
<DasSkelett[m]>
You could try to run CKAN to install these mods and just grab whatever GameData folder ends up. But what if it strips license files? And what if it has dependencies not on SpaceDock?
<DasSkelett[m]>
Honestly I don't think automatically merging zips is possible, and manual merging is very risky.
<cukkoo[m]>
(Btw is there any way to disable the outdated mod warning as in my mod i keep click the update menu
<cukkoo[m]>
(Btw is there any way to disable the outdated mod warning as in my mod i keep click the update menu)
<VITAS[m]>
DasSkelett: we had the topic of "if we want a modpack function are we allowed to or do we seek consent from every mod author" in the past multiple times
<DasSkelett[m]>
<span class="d-mention d-user">cukkoo</span> if you update your mod to 1.10.0 the warning will go away.
<VITAS[m]>
and im saying no we dont for as long as we keep all original files and dont mess with them
<cukkoo[m]>
but it require 1.9.1 mod
<cukkoo[m]>
so it is in 1.9.1
<VITAS[m]>
we can however repack them e.g. combine all zips into one tar file
<DasSkelett[m]>
Yeah then it is not compatible with the latest KSP version <span class="d-mention d-user">cukkoo</span>
<DasSkelett[m]>
It's a warning for users to avoid them installing it in 1.10 and breaking their saves.
<cukkoo[m]>
well the nuke probably broke all their infrastructure
<cukkoo[m]>
because my mod is about nuke
<VITAS[m]>
DasSkelett: i wouldnt go as far an recombine everything into one folder structure and zip it on the server. that ind eed is more of ckans thing to enable that
<cukkoo[m]>
*edit:* ~~well the nuke probably broke all their infrastructure~~ -> well the nuke probably broke all their infrastructure😆
<VITAS[m]>
im about reducing clicks
<cukkoo[m]>
is you a bot
<cukkoo[m]>
because it says you is a bot
<cukkoo[m]>
VITAS
<VITAS[m]>
no
<VITAS[m]>
yes but it lies
<cukkoo[m]>
then how discord say you is a bot
<VITAS[m]>
because its dishonest
<cukkoo[m]>
😆 haha that funny
<VITAS[m]>
its a bridge
<VITAS[m]>
a tunnel
<cukkoo[m]>
what?A tunnel
<VITAS[m]>
im in fact very real and currently on a fast train somehwere arround north-mid germany
<cukkoo[m]>
?
<VITAS[m]>
imagine you have two houses
<cukkoo[m]>
yes
<VITAS[m]>
and you want to meet
<cukkoo[m]>
yes
<cukkoo[m]>
?
<VITAS[m]>
you can go trough the garden fence of one and to the other
<cukkoo[m]>
?
<cukkoo[m]>
yes?
<VITAS[m]>
if theres no door because one house owner is an arsehole
<VITAS[m]>
you dig a tunnel
<VITAS[m]>
thats what i did to use discord fromt he free internet
<cukkoo[m]>
then?
<VITAS[m]>
my messages go trough the tunnel
<VITAS[m]>
to the house named discord
<VITAS[m]>
that didnt put a door into their fence
<DasSkelett[m]>
I fear that if we just add together all the zips in one big zip, we are going to have a lot of users not knowing what to do, since they're used to having everything prepared in such a way that they just have to drag and drop it.
<DasSkelett[m]>
I don't believe in the competence of users.
<VITAS[m]>
DasSkelett: atm you click all files individualy right?
<VITAS[m]>
wouldnt it be easier to link and use if theyre just one dl link?
<VITAS[m]>
thats what id expect if it says pack
<VITAS[m]>
we could even include the description field content as text files for each mod
<VITAS[m]>
but we are getting into the "how" again
<VITAS[m]>
i wanted to discuss if we even would want something different than individual links
<VITAS[m]>
you extract the tar and get all the zips
<VITAS[m]>
OR we have folders for each mod
<VITAS[m]>
inside a global zip
<VITAS[m]>
contianing the files AS they are extracted
<DasSkelett[m]>
Then some poeple would just put the zips into GameData and would wonder why it doesn't work.
<VITAS[m]>
so same as what they could do now too?
<DasSkelett[m]>
Some do yes, the others are used to open _one_ zip and put whatever is in it or maybe a subfolder called GameData into KSP's GameData.
<DasSkelett[m]>
A bunch of users won't know what to do if there are zips inside zips.
<VITAS[m]>
we can add links to faq and howtos and im sure there will always be soem that wont read
<DasSkelett[m]>
Exactly
<VITAS[m]>
so youre saying change shouldnt happen
<DasSkelett[m]>
(More like there will be 95% who won't read)
<VITAS[m]>
because theres always some that are left behind
<DasSkelett[m]>
I don't think it would work very well. But maybe we should ask mod authors what they would think about it, and if they trust the majority of users to understand what to do.
<VITAS[m]>
i say: make it easy but accept that there are some that refuse to follow insturctions and fail no matter what
<VITAS[m]>
im ready to accept input on the how
<VITAS[m]>
but i think we (as in whos actualy working on the site) should decide IF
<VITAS[m]>
especialy when we wont merge everything in one folder and rearange or weven worsse rewrite files
<VITAS[m]>
if someone wants that they should do ckan
<DasSkelett[m]>
Regarding the legal side again: we might be allowed to do it. But would mod authors like it regardless?
<DasSkelett[m]>
I know at least of LGG who explicitely says he doesn't want his mods bundled in any sort of modpack. The question is whether that would also apply for automatically generated ones on SpaceDock.
<VITAS[m]>
i expect some to not like it as always
<VITAS[m]>
the idear what the site is are very diverse
<VITAS[m]>
i would like it to be more of a social hub and exchange not only of files and others see it as file dump
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<Darklight[m]>
"different ways of packaging" hence ckan :P
<VITAS[m]>
i think the selling point is this:
<VITAS[m]>
if we offer a server based modpack system that works (and even if its only a combination of zuip files into a tar) users wont do it themselves
<VITAS[m]>
and so the mod author gets more control over modpacks
<VITAS[m]>
and we dont have to delete them from SD because users wont uplaod them anymore
<DasSkelett[m]>
We shouldn't end up like CKAN a few years ago, where CKAN insisted on indexing mods of authors who didn't want to, just because they were legally allowed to. This was a giant desaster.
<DasSkelett[m]>
If SpaceDock does the same and starts creating modpacks despite authors not wanting it, then goodbye.
<VITAS[m]>
but go the lazy path of jsut clicking them together
<VITAS[m]>
i dont want opt out boxes of this
<VITAS[m]>
but i want to do it in a way that doesnt change the files
<VITAS[m]>
thats why i suggested TARing all the zips without even extracting those
<VITAS[m]>
we are free to add files to the tar like instructions and so on
<VITAS[m]>
we could even include Cchecksums
<VITAS[m]>
btw TAR is only a placeholder for an archive
<VITAS[m]>
i only see this be accepted by endusers if all mods on SD are included
<DasSkelett[m]>
CKAN introduced an Opt-Out list afterwards, as well as asking every mod author before indexing one of their mods.
<DasSkelett[m]>
I really don't know if you want to risk a 2016 reloaded.
<VITAS[m]>
so what i prupose is that we offer a discussion on the forums about the technical HOW
<VITAS[m]>
i see the difference
<VITAS[m]>
SD uses files that it allready hosts for public download
<VITAS[m]>
nothing is altered about them
<DasSkelett[m]>
Yes I know there's a difference. That doesn't mean authors will like it, just because it's different.
<VITAS[m]>
ckan (as i understand it) aquired date that it didnt allready have
<VITAS[m]>
thats why i want to include them in the HOW discussion
<VITAS[m]>
if we let everyone take part in the IF discussion we wont have any result and maybe boaty mc moatface
<DasSkelett[m]>
CKAN probably also was very much on the legal side. But you should _not_ go by "but we're allowed to".
<DasSkelett[m]>
Exactly. We should ask the mod authors how they'd feel about it.
<VITAS[m]>
and then?
<VITAS[m]>
some will say: i dont want it
<VITAS[m]>
and so we dont do it?
<DasSkelett[m]>
I guess yes, we don't do it, at least for their mods.
<VITAS[m]>
i would do: we want to do it lets get your idears how we could do it
<VITAS[m]>
as i said i wont do options
<VITAS[m]>
if im an enduser
<VITAS[m]>
and i want to share my modsetup with my friends
<VITAS[m]>
and i somehow cant add mod x to my pack on SD
<VITAS[m]>
i would be confused, think its broken, zip my KSP folder and put it on mediafire
<VITAS[m]>
it has to be coherant
<DasSkelett[m]>
All I want is to prevent a "2016 CKAN reloaded" because someone insists on their legal right to do something.
<DasSkelett[m]>
SpaceDock would sink into irrelevance very fast.
<VITAS[m]>
people dont understand why some mods work and some dont
<Darklight[m]>
I think we should just not do modpacks, but shrug
<VITAS[m]>
i see your fear
<VITAS[m]>
Darklight: yes but if we do them then at least make a pack
<Darklight[m]>
CKAN's .ckan files is more what people want, otherwise people create yuge zips amd pass them around, modpacks are more popular in either the multiplayer context or watching a youtuber they like
<VITAS[m]>
or not call them packs if they arent
<VITAS[m]>
we allready discussed that above
<VITAS[m]>
with the ckan files and zip files
<VITAS[m]>
lets do the middle ground then
<VITAS[m]>
make a poll on the forums
<VITAS[m]>
offer single file modpack downloads that include all (unaltered) individual mod zips
<VITAS[m]>
yes no
<Darklight[m]>
Probably better to visit where the modders live, I don't know where that is these days
<VITAS[m]>
yes you do
<Darklight[m]>
kspmodders on IRC?
<DasSkelett[m]>
Exactly. Users will answer yes, but what about mod authors? These are the ones I'm worried about.
<VITAS[m]>
nope discord
<VITAS[m]>
but official SD posts are on the KSP forums atm
<Darklight[m]>
I am not in any KSP channel but this, DMP and LMP
<VITAS[m]>
so thats where i post it
<VITAS[m]>
noone can expect me to hunt down every person using SD :D
<Darklight[m]>
Well, they all do have verified emails, but I think I'd avoid that option ;)
<VITAS[m]>
ill post something when ive got stable inet
<VITAS[m]>
i could also do blog on SD but who expects something there
<VITAS[m]>
:D
<VITAS[m]>
and to be clear majority wins
<VITAS[m]>
and this is our option to do it or not to do it
<DasSkelett[m]>
If you want to ignore mod authors 🤷♂️
<DasSkelett[m]>
I won't be the person to implement or approve the feature PR in that case.
<VITAS[m]>
(if its outcome is positive)
<VITAS[m]>
do you realy expect everyone to say uniformly yes to anything?
<DasSkelett[m]>
I think this discussion doesn't lead anaywhere new from now on. I said what I think we should and shouldn't do.
<DasSkelett[m]>
I haven't been in the CKAN team yet when all this happened. But I don't want this or similar things to repeat on on a project I contribute to.
<VITAS[m]>
i understand
<VITAS[m]>
i dont want to be a dictator
<VITAS[m]>
i want progress
<VITAS[m]>
lets make that poll and see how it goes
<VITAS[m]>
and then we discuss what we take away from it afterwards
<VITAS[m]>
:)
<VITAS[m]>
How would you discribe the modpack idea to the authors?
<Darklight[m]>
Is this a bad time to mention DMP has modpack support built in but disabled by default :P
<VITAS[m]>
i know it has
<VITAS[m]>
:)
<Darklight[m]>
It makes modded servers usable though...
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<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
Is KSP 2 supposed to be multiplayer capable?
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<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
like, mod authors may have to face the issue of modapcks sooner or later... why not now, when SD is willing to get their input?
<VITAS[m]>
i take suggestions for actual texts that could be posted
<VITAS[m]>
i dont want to write something on my own that you guys dont agree with
<HebaruSan[m]>
<span class="d-mention d-user">VITAS</span> you are going to get the debate over **if** whether you want it or not, if you attempt to poll on **how**. Nobody on CKAN ever asked for the 2016 thing to happen.
<HebaruSan[m]>
And it's true that you can't make everyone happy, but if you make mod authors unhappy, they have much easier ways to retaliate. With CKAN it was a long forum thread and pull requests that the team merged. With SpaceDock they can just delete their mods or upload garbage data.
<HebaruSan[m]>
I can even imagine authors getting together to share a DLL that just does `MessageBox("This mod was downloaded from SpaceDock, insert rant here. Go to GitHub for the real mod.")'`
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
also, idk how widespread it might be, but I know theres a number of authors (I have no idea how big that actual number could be), but they are already, and have long been on the fence about SD, since they have had not-so-great experiences, with past down-times, upload issues, etc... and usually *right* after a KSP update... vOv
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
So, I suggest tread lightly with mod authors? vOv
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
and has been pointed out, the CKAN thing is, unfortunately, a good example to be aware of
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
also, idk how widespread it might be, but I know theres a number of popular authors (I have no idea how big that actual number could be), but they are already, and have long been on the fence about SD, since they have had not-so-great experiences, with past down-times, upload issues, etc... and usually *right* after a KSP update... vOv
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
So, I suggest tread lightly with mod authors? vOv
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
and has been pointed out, the CKAN thing is, unfortunately, a good example to be aware of
<Darklight[m]>
CKAN had a bad reputation at the start because it was buggy and couldn't reliably maintain installs, Spacedock was born after sircmpwn sepukku'd kerbalstuff and may have had a bit of "once bitten twice shy" thing going on, but when KS died some set up their own areas or just ended up using curse/github and didn't want the extra step up supporting SD too
<HebaruSan[m]>
Modpacks are a way for SD to get in on that "bad install" action tho
<Darklight[m]>
SD also did have pretty poor performance in areas, and the "storage going read only" problem, those two things were solved rather recently
<HebaruSan[m]>
Mod authors would begin seeing posts, "I installed XYZ modpack and this mod is broken"
<HebaruSan[m]>
Because they didn't understand the complex process of how to unpack the ZIP
<Darklight[m]>
Herbaru the winner of that award for me personally goes to kortal who uploaded a development version of DMP+KSP to thepiratebay
<Darklight[m]>
Before I even tagged a release
<HebaruSan[m]>
And nothing pisses KSP mod authors off more than false positive bug reports
<Darklight[m]>
That taught me a lesson about tagging early :P
<Darklight[m]>
Unzipping a zip isn't always easy when you make this mistake
<Darklight[m]>
I never changed it to remain consistent
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
> SD also did have pretty poor performance in areas, and the "storage going read only" problem, those two things were solved rather recently
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
yes..
<Darklight[m]>
I hated zips that sprawled over my dowloads folder, nearly 100% of linix programs have a top level folder, windows shit sprawls crap everywhere
<Darklight[m]>
I hated zips that sprawled over my dowloads folder, nearly 100% of linux programs have a top level folder, windows shit sprawls crap everywhere
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
*edit:* ~~yes..~~ -> yes.. things HAVE improved, and been fixed thru the years.. but mod authors can very very stubborn... and those early impressions, have seemed to have stuck with a ot of authors, unfortunately
<Darklight[m]>
I thought I was going to package extra stuff but never did
<Darklight[m]>
Even they way I see ckan never fully recovered and I was one of the first adopters and massively got behind it
<Darklight[m]>
CKAN is a life saver on new installs
<Darklight[m]>
But got help you if you want to uninstall something or change the mods
<Darklight[m]>
But god help you if you want to uninstall something or change the mods
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
yeah.. it always used to be confusing to me, knowing which to grab: the DMP server, or client
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
and wasnt there a 3rd option of getting both in one?.. mebbe I'm just thinking of the Source package... since I grab that with *every* mod I download 😛
<Darklight[m]>
I now offer .NET core versions of the server but they received nearly no in use testing. They compile from the exact same files though
<Darklight[m]>
The other thing that may be required is the public server list plugin, but shrug
<Darklight[m]>
I'm actually more happy with how well the reporting network works compared to DMP bahaha, that program is *solid* and beats the pants off what LMP has for speed :P
<HebaruSan[m]>
I feel like the elephant in the room is ZIP format standardization. If mod authors could agree and conform, the holy grail of actual combined modpacks could be within reach.
<Darklight[m]>
For KSP2 by god I hope that is pushed early on
<Darklight[m]>
Balsa solves this problem by forcing you to do something
<Darklight[m]>
Kinda... you have modcfg files that point to the path of the dll in the gamedata folder equivalent
<Darklight[m]>
But that was only testable with my "unlocker", beta will have that actually in
<Darklight[m]>
Bonus points for doing what minecraft does and LOADING FROM ZIP WITHOUT UNPACKING
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
I know Sarbian and possibly Blowfish, experimented quite heavily with trying to get something for KSP that would do that
<Darklight[m]>
Sarbian is a good candidate for that type of thing, their words have a fair bit of weight
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
not quite sure how active he has been, and will be... He seems to be fading out right now... many recent discussions on MM thread IMHO, have not helped vOV
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<Darklight[m]>
I kinda miss majiir
<HebaruSan[m]>
<span class="d-mention d-user">VITAS</span> how does SD's download caching work exactly? Which server/layer/process/whatever actually holds the downloads? And what would happen if we turned it off?
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<DasSkelett[m]>
Yeah I think it's ATS that caches the zip files in memory and serves them primarily.
<DasSkelett[m]>
Turning caching off completely would probably reduce the download speeds significantly, since they have to be fetched from an external storage server. But <span class="d-mention d-user">VITAS</span> has more insight.
<DasSkelett[m]>
As I wrote in the CKAN server unique file names for reuploads are probably the way to go.
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<RockyTV[m]>
<span class="d-mention d-user">VITAS</span> <span class="d-mention d-user">HebaruSan</span> about mod packs: that's why I suggested notifying mod authors or adding a new setting when creatinga mod to allow other users to include the mod in modpacks. and my idea was that mod packs would simply group existing mods on SD and provide a download link for a zip file containing the zip file for the mods included in the pack
<RockyTV[m]>
<span class="d-mention d-user">VITAS</span> <span class="d-mention d-user">HebaruSan</span> about mod packs: that's why I suggested notifying mod authors or adding a new setting when creating a mod to allow other users to include the mod in modpacks. and my idea was that mod packs would simply group existing mods on SD and provide a download link for a zip file containing the zip file for the mods included in the pack
<HebaruSan[m]>
A setting per mod would not address problems with installing one big ZIP
<RockyTV[m]>
well that's the user's problem 😛
<HebaruSan[m]>
And the mod author's, when that user requests support
<RockyTV[m]>
I thought of adding a confirmation dialog when downloading a mod pack saying it's for advacned users
<HebaruSan[m]>
I thought VITAS's idea of basically adding a README inside the file was interesting
<RockyTV[m]>
that as well
<RockyTV[m]>
a readme and a confirmation dialog when downloading so the user is aware that it's not a simple drag and drop situation
<DasSkelett[m]>
Except the users askking for installation support on mod threads will ignore the README and confirmation checkbox and still ask for support on mod threads.
<HebaruSan[m]>
True
<HebaruSan[m]>
Side note, mod packs already have names and descriptions, so that could go in the README as well
<RockyTV[m]>
give a 20 second delay to download the modpack so it forces the user to read the dialog 😛
<HebaruSan[m]>
It might take that long to generate a ZIP for a large modpack anyway
<RockyTV[m]>
okay I just realized that we have a problem
<RockyTV[m]>
what about modpacks that change mod settings?
<HebaruSan[m]>
Those are mods
<HebaruSan[m]>
Bundle of .cfg files patching things
<RockyTV[m]>
e.g. curse offers both mods and modpacks
<RockyTV[m]>
but I think modpacks are handled as mods
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<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
wait... so youre talking about SD having to *store/host*, a "compiled" modpack .zip; or are you all talking the modpack .zip would only be generated *once*, by the user's request, then removed/not hosted from SD afterward?
<RockyTV[m]>
it would probably be generated once and stored
<HebaruSan[m]>
To be determined
<RockyTV[m]>
oh well it's becoming complex because how would we handle different versions?
<HebaruSan[m]>
I don't know which would work out better at this point
<HebaruSan[m]>
Yeah we might need to add the ability to pin a mod in a pack at a specific version
<HebaruSan[m]>
That's basically the "on the fly" option, not much is gained by saving a README in a ZIP
<HebaruSan[m]>
I wonder if it's possible to start multiple downloads in a browser, either parallel or serial
<HebaruSan[m]>
Could just give them all the ZIPs at once with some scripting maybe
<HebaruSan[m]>
Separately, that is
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
yeah...
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
but then again, how do you know what versions of what mods, work with each other, if its on-the-fly modpack creation?
<HebaruSan[m]>
I'm picturing a dropdown where the modpack creator could specify versions
<HebaruSan[m]>
Save that to the ModList record, use it as needed
<DasSkelett[m]>
I like the idea of downloading all the original zips separately, but with a single click. This would solve a few of our problems.
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
idk.. I do manual installs... modpacks and auto-installers are anathema to me...
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
idiot-proofing anything, to the point of the lowest idiot, is usually much moar complicated and work...
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
*...than just ignoring the complaints of the lowest, most idiotic user...* 😛
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
so i guess i could definately be considered a devils-advocate in this process vOv lol
<HebaruSan[m]>
BTW, I did end up writing some server code for the CKAN webhooks to generate modpack .ckan files, but it may not make it through code review
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
well, I can tell you, one issue you'll here from mod devs, is, how the heck can some rando-user be expected to *know*, 100%, of what versions of what mods, in combination, will even work together?
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
hence, a veeerryyy similar issue to the whole handling ofthe NETKAN issue 😦
<HebaruSan[m]>
Funny you mention that now, that's basically solved by generating a .ckan, because the CKAN metadata has that info
<HebaruSan[m]>
Although, it might need a game version parameter and some extra processing to find compatible mods
<HebaruSan[m]>
Hmm
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
yeah
<HebaruSan[m]>
Wait, no. The modpack doesn't need that info, the client of the installing user will handle it.
<HebaruSan[m]>
Could even do multi-version modpacks that way, if all the mods are in CKAN for my game version, it'll install them
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
HEY!... what about during the package installation, there is a .dll added, that adds a single line, or something, to the KSP/Player/logs, right at the very top, or top of where the .dll/gamedata folder structure is listed, so that when users submit logs for support to mod devs, mod devs could IMMEDITAELY check that, and see that the install is (at least partially) built from one of these modpacks, and then devs could
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
immediately say, no way!.. no support here (cuz unsupported-by-them-modpack)
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
that might help alleviate at least *some* of the concerns of mod authors... vOv
<HebaruSan[m]>
No
<HebaruSan[m]>
Sorry, saw "DLL added", made up my mind 🙂
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
well, maybe an empty folder, or cfg, or something that would show somewhere in the log, pretty easy to spot vOV
<HebaruSan[m]>
You know what's particularly fun in all of this? ModuleManager is NOT hosted on SpaceDock, except as bundled in other mods
<HebaruSan[m]>
So any attempt to handle a dependency web only on SD will fail
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
thats right!
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
that was another thing I was gonna eventually bring up:
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
how do you handle non-SD listed mods 😛
<HebaruSan[m]>
Another point in favor of the .ckan solution
<HebaruSan[m]>
Though obviously that would only cover dependencies, there would still be no way to add a "primary" constituent mod that isn't on SD
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
what about, like I said, supply the URL to the SD file, then scan CKAN (or somehow get), direct-download URLs for non-SD hosted files, and when the whole list of downloads is provided, started, the non-SD ones would be included... but that opens a whole bunch of issues, too
<HebaruSan[m]>
Doesn't really solve anything, does it?
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
nope 😛
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
hence, one good reason why I'm not in favor of doing the modpack thing 😛
<HebaruSan[m]>
Best solution: Time travel back 7 years and merge the CKAN and KS/SD projects
<HebaruSan[m]>
One codebase, one server, one client, one set of metadata. SD would know about relationships and have omnicience about all mods.
<HebaruSan[m]>
Even mods not hosted on it.
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
yeah... I guess I'm not exactly clear, on why, or what difference there would be, between doing modpacks on SD, vs just using CKAN?
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
yeah.. cuz what I was describing, seems like it might work in theory... but then, it seems its just setting SD up for being a middle-man... with not much gain, but TONS of grief
<HebaruSan[m]>
Well if the end goal is a .ckan file, using CKAN will be superior.
<HebaruSan[m]>
Another thing to consider. SpaceDock's legalese gives it permission to redistribute files that are uploaded to it, but one big ZIP (in any form) would be a prime candidate for user-to-user redistribution, which may or may not be OK or another thing to upset mod authors.
<HebaruSan[m]>
Multiplayer servers were already mentioned, the admins of which would be likely to send players a ZIP or link to a ZIP. That could get hairy.
<HebaruSan[m]>
Obviously the person doing that would be legally responsible for any infringement, but mod authors might not like SD enabling it
<KineticSloth8StoneBlue[m>
EXACTLY!... SD would get all the grief, but what payoff...
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