egg|nomz|egg changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> egg|nomz|egg: generally if your eyes are dewing over, that's not the weather. | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer.
<awang>
But in this case, I guess it's more appropriate to 🔪 the printer driver
<bofh>
whitequark: rqou: I've come to the conclusion that Diggy Diggy Hole is in Phrygian C & uh that's a really strange choice of mode for a silly song about dwarves
<bofh>
(I don't mind, it's hella neat).
<rqou>
i have no idea what that actually means (other than that it has something to do with music theory)
<bofh>
it's the diatonic scale that starts & ends on E instead of C, to be massively simplistic
<rqou>
i have no idea what that means either :P
<rqou>
"Why is every Wikipedia article on this impossible to read without first having read all the others?" -- @eevee
<bofh>
(tho I think this is actually phrygian dominant, i.e. with the dominant raised by a semitone)
<bofh>
pretty much :/ tho I find that's the case with music theory intros in general.
<rqou>
i basically can't find any explanation of music theory that makes any sense at all
<rqou>
although i did find some youtube videos a while back that said that everything i thought i knew about music is a lie
<rqou>
apparently there's more than "that chart of notes and frequencies," there's a whole bunch of other notes that exist as well
<rqou>
but other than that all of the music theory intros just explain things like "this is a sharp, and a flat, and scales, and key signatures" and don't explain anything like "um, why do i need this/care about this? why do you need 7/12/whatever-number different ways to refer to the same note?"
<UmbralRaptop>
Okay, but in beats per second, what is x/y time?
<UmbralRaptop>
(NaN, I think)
<rqou>
er, what?
<X>
I cannot be divided by why.
<X>
And the different ways to refer to the same note are based on moods.
<UmbralRaptop>
Please state 4/4 (or whatever, but that's a common time) in a way that relates it to units of time.
<X>
Tempo is moody.
<rqou>
oh right, time signatures
<UmbralRaptop>
How do you actually tell when measures end by ear?
<X>
Accents.
<rqou>
yeah, that's another example of "i don't get it, what is the point of this?"
<X>
The first note of a measure is usually accented or played slightly longer.
<rqou>
it is? i've never noticed it in music that i can remember playing
<X>
It is in orchestral music.
<rqou>
hrm, maybe sometimes
<X>
Maybe not for joe with his guitar.
<rqou>
in my experience guitar is in an even weirder environment that i even more don't understand
<rqou>
e.g. the heavy use of tablature
<bofh>
tbh I'm not sure I understand tabulature at all
<rqou>
i mean, it's a pretty straightforward "put this finger on that fret" system, but it only works with a single instrument
<rqou>
not that western music notation is any good, but at least it's "portable(?)"
<UmbralRaptop>
We use an 8 note scale. This is why your piano has 13 keys in an octave.
<rqou>
yet another example of "what is the point of this? why not just use 13 different letters?"
<UmbralRaptop>
We don't use Newton's or Maxwell's notation, but I get the impression that music notation is unchanged in >> 200 years.
<X>
It’s a Greek thing.
<X>
And there 7 notes, with the 8th the double of the first.
<X>
It had to work out to be a good number.
<X>
Music is the mathematics of time.
<X>
And astronomy is the mathematics of time and space.
<UmbralRaptop>
I would like to apologize for the existence of magnitudes.
<egg>
bofh: "the Syrian violinist and music theorist Twfiq Al-Sabagh proposed that instead of an equal division of the octave into 24 parts a 24-note scale in 53-et should be used as the master scale for Arabic music" << yeah that's far too thinly-disguised IEEE 754 tuning
<kmath>
<FioraAeterna> @rygorous @stephentyrone congratulations, you've reduced the problem from one i'm not sure about to one I *definite… https://t.co/MlcM4qEomr
<awang>
!u 🗡❗
<Qboid>
U+1F5E1 DAGGER KNIFE (🗡)
<Qboid>
U+2757 HEAVY EXCLAMATION MARK SYMBOL (❗)
APlayer has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
<awang>
I think I sort of understand people who complain that Haskell libraries don't have enough documentation
<awang>
Trying to figure out what a function does solely by its type signature isn't fun
APlayer has joined #kspacademia
<soundnfury>
UmbralRaptop: how is a pint anywhere _near_ a pound?
<soundnfury>
Are these defective American pints and pounds?
<soundnfury>
also, /me stabs 53-et with NAKs
<UmbralRaptop>
!wa weight 1 pint of water in pounds
<Qboid>
UmbralRaptop: convert 1 pt of water to pounds: 1.043 lb (pounds)
<UmbralRaptop>
!wa weight 1 pint of water in ounces
<Qboid>
UmbralRaptop: convert 1 pt of water to fluid ounces: 16 fl oz (fluid ounces), (using additional water density = 1000 kg/m^3 (kilograms per cubic meter))
<UmbralRaptop>
no, wolfram
<UmbralRaptop>
!wa 1.043*16
<Qboid>
UmbralRaptop: 1.043×16 = 16.688
<UmbralRaptop>
ie: in the system where this "works", a pint of water weighs closer to 17 ounces than 16.
<soundnfury>
!wa weight 1 pint Imperial of water in pounds avoirdupois
<Qboid>
soundnfury: convert 1 UK pt of water to pounds: 1.253 lb (pounds)
<soundnfury>
(hence the mnemonic, "A pint of water / weighs a pound and a quarter")
<awang>
soundnfury: 53-et?
<soundnfury>
awang: the egg wanted a musical tuning system based on IEEE754 floating point formats.
<soundnfury>
I do not approve of this.
<egg>
wherefore
<awang>
soundnfury: I see
<awang>
Sort of
<bofh>
egg: okay, someone noticed this on twitter and this is bothering me irrationally: Henri Louis Le Chatelier's name seems to be spelled that way, despite the fact that Chatelier seems to be derived from Latin castellum & so should be spelled Châtelier in modern French... for which there does exist a lot of search results, whereas interestingly leaving off the circonflexe only returns the chemist and his
<bofh>
father.
<bofh>
egg: basically, wtf?
<egg>
I don't know
<soundnfury>
egg: tbh I'm not a massive fan of equal temperament at all
<soundnfury>
but I'm _definitely_ not a fan of mixing together music and mathturbation.
<bofh>
what's wrong with mixing music & mathturbation anyhow?
<kmath>
<Scuttlepunk> memes i don't understand "you know i had to do it to em" ⏎ memes i love and understand perfectly and find relatable:… https://t.co/n6YY6szpgv
<UmbralRaptop>
rqou: aaaaaaa
<rqou>
what?
<UmbralRaptop>
at the zip files
<rqou>
yeah?
<rqou>
this is why pirated weeb media all have/had broken filenames
<whitequark>
huh?
<whitequark>
i've never encountered that
<rqou>
hmm, i definitely have
<rqou>
usually a shift-jis filename reinterpreted as latin1
<rqou>
I don't think I've ever seen any program actually interpret it as cp437 though
<whitequark>
my favorite japanese encoding thing is C:¥Windows¥System32
<kmath>
<FakeUnicode> Firefox just asked me to set them up the BOM... https://t.co/hXeA9oyX09
<bofh>
whitequark: ¥ is best path separator
<rqou>
what about ₩?
<bofh>
₩TF
<bofh>
(yes, I know it does the same thing as ¥ in Korean localized Windows)
<rqou>
hmm, i wonder if there have ever been issues where one company thought they were discussing KRW and another company thought they were discussing JPY
<rqou>
there's already been a stabbing caused by character set issues
<soundnfury>
rqou: was that the turkic ı thing?
<rqou>
yes
<rqou>
i wonder why this doesn't get brought up in "ethical implications of technology" discussions?
<soundnfury>
comp.rısks
<egg>
bofh: rqou: whitequark: what about Ö
<egg>
CP1018! :D
<rqou>
what about it?
<egg>
whose capitalization rules affect IRC :-p
<bofh>
egg: gods no
egg is now known as EGG\ZZZ\EGG
EGG\ZZZ\EGG is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: there are so many of those ISO 646 variants :D
* UmbralRaptop
🔪 hold patterns.
<egg|zzz|egg>
Ñ (CP1023)
<egg|zzz|egg>
ç (CP1020)
<egg|zzz|egg>
also CP1010
<bofh>
egg|zzz|egg: JISX0201 is the first to come to mind, what else?
<egg|zzz|egg>
Ø of course
<egg|zzz|egg>
oh fun CP1015 has Ç there and has ç at |
<rqou>
does anybody actually deal with these silly codepages anymore?
<egg|zzz|egg>
rqou: well the swedish/norwegian stuff pops up every now and then, but very indirectly
<egg|zzz|egg>
(the most obvious thing being that you can't /nick egg\zzz\egg right now)
<rqou>
I've heard Japan also adamantly refuses to switch completely to Unicode
<rqou>
?
<whitequark>
iirc that's not really the case
<whitequark>
last time that came up and I looked into it
<UmbralRaptop>
whitequark: Today in bank shenanigans: to close an account I need to 1) Show up at an office in person, or 2) mail (not email) them a signed letter.
<whitequark>
absolutely unsurprising
APlayer has quit [Ping timeout: 383 seconds]
<UmbralRaptop>
Party like it's 1968?
<egg|zzz|egg>
rqou: but yeah the 8-bit codepages managed to mostly drive off the ISO 646 zoo
<rqou>
us banking seems to be perpetually stuck in the dark ages
<whitequark>
s/banking//
<rqou>
whitequark might proceed to blame KYC/AML at this point
<UmbralRaptop>
At least I can trust them to mail me a check.
<rqou>
whitequark: oh, that's somehow better :P
<whitequark>
UmbralRaptop: >check
<rqou>
yup, we still use those
<whitequark>
party like it's 1868
<UmbralRaptop>
whitequark: guess how I paid rent circa 2007-9, 2012-2016, and 2017-present?
<SilverFox>
any car nerds here?
<UmbralRaptop>
Also, cost of mailing a check is typically less than convenience fees on a card.
<whitequark>
oh HK has cheques too
<egg|zzz|egg>
whitequark: france too
<whitequark>
it's monstrous
<egg|zzz|egg>
much less so CH
<egg|zzz|egg>
but FR, it's full of it
<egg|zzz|egg>
paying on delivery is pretty much always cheques
<rqou>
I've actually found HK banking to be a PITA too
<whitequark>
oh it absolutely is
<whitequark>
something broke inside standardchartered and now i can't withdraw any cash from foreign ATMs
<rqou>
but that might just be because I don't permanently live there
<whitequark>
they have no idea what it is
<whitequark>
their support's desynchronized with the web interface
<UmbralRaptop>
O_o
<rqou>
lol
<egg|zzz|egg>
whitequark: oh wow that's still going on
<rqou>
i mostly have problems with us emv cards being provisioned weird compared to the rest of the world
<UmbralRaptop>
It almost seems like it would be easier for whitequark to buy things with chemicals.
<rqou>
e.g. when i was in Germany i found that some ATMs that claimed to support the correct debit networks still got really confused at my card
<rqou>
because us emv debits are usually provisioned as debit, other debit, _and_ credit
<egg|zzz|egg>
what's the Br RUB rate
<whitequark>
UmbralRaptop: no, I can use the card for PAYMENTS
<whitequark>
but I can't get CASH
<egg|zzz|egg>
O_O
<UmbralRaptop>
Ꙩ_Ꙩ
<whitequark>
it's so bad that I mostly gave up and use bitcoin for that
<rqou>
because payments and getting cash are different networks/ecosystems because raisins
<whitequark>
hysterical raisins.
<egg|zzz|egg>
I first saw that expression in a Fiora tweet, does it come from there?
<rqou>
no, I've seen it elsewhere (e.g. on TDWTF)
<bofh>
I think it's one of those old expressions that everyone sort of picked up at some point. I've used it for years and don't even know where I got it from.
<UmbralRaptop>
It's AFAIK an old phrase.
<rqou>
whitequark: random idea: I wonder if you can ask your bank to enable international cash back on your card (yes, this exists)
<whitequark>
enable what
<rqou>
this might end up going through a different network with fewer/different bugs
<rqou>
oh, is cash back an American thing only?
<whitequark>
it isn't
<whitequark>
but i have no idea what "international" cash back is
<rqou>
cash back is normally limited to only the region/currency your card is issued in
<rqou>
but it's possible to set it up otherwise
<rqou>
I've never seen it, but someone i met at CCC claims he had it on his card
<rqou>
there's a bit in the EMV protocol for it :P
<whitequark>
pfff
<rqou>
maybe if we KYC/AML harder then things will be better /s
<UmbralRaptop>
KYC?
<UmbralRaptop>
AML?
<bofh>
KnowYourCustomer/AntiMoneyLaundering
<rqou>
"every dollar that is spent waging the war on drugs is a dollar not spent genetically engineering catgirls for domestic ownership" :P
<awang>
....I just got a linker error saying I'm missing a template function...
<awang>
How does this even happen
<rqou>
c++
<whitequark>
awang: you don't have to write the body of a template function in the header
<awang>
whitequark: Right
<awang>
But this is a standard library function
<awang>
I think
<whitequark>
you know what happened
<whitequark>
which?
<awang>
Uh
<awang>
It's a monster of a template function
<awang>
I'll get it on hastebin
<awang>
Something to do with std::declval, I think?
<whitequark>
"Note that because no definition exists for declval, it can only be used in unevaluated contexts; it is an error to evaluate an expression that contains this function. Formally, the program is ill-formed if this function is odr-used.
<whitequark>
"
<UmbralRaptop>
rqou: I'm with you up until the last 3 words.
<whitequark>
ye
<bofh>
UmbralRaptop: same
<rqou>
yeah, tbh i found that last part pretty creepy as well
<awang>
...Or hastebin can just not work
<awang>
whitequark: ....Oh
<awang>
Guess I'm just dumb then
<awang>
Makes sense though
<UmbralRaptop>
fair enough
<awang>
whitequark: Thanks for finding that
<whitequark>
I literally just opened cppreference.com
<soundnfury>
awang: you must be; why else would you be using C++?
<awang>
whitequark: Still, you did work that really shouldn't have been necessary
<awang>
soundnfury: I blame the client for not being OK with newer languages
<awang>
Also because I'm a type system nut who really shouldn't be allowed near working codebases
<egg|phone|egg>
Awang: yeah declval is there for being in decltype
<egg|phone|egg>
Awang: me too
<egg|phone|egg>
Somehow I'm allowed to touch code at work
<egg|phone|egg>
And yes I keep convincing everyone that we should type all the things
<whitequark>
oh god decltype
<whitequark>
just looking at the name mangling of decltype convinced me to never touch it
<awang>
egg|phone|egg: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've used it in decltype
<awang>
I just wanted to access what really should be a static field
<egg|phone|egg>
Whitequark: It's good though
<awang>
Didn't care whatever value the thing had
<awang>
egg|phone|egg: Do you work in academia?
<egg|phone|egg>
No, i18n at YouTube
<awang>
And yeah, of the languages that I could have written this in (Java, C++, C, Fortran, don't remember others), the strong type system is what made me pick C++
<awang>
egg|phone|egg: o_O
<awang>
Wow
<egg|phone|egg>
Reading fakeunicode is work :-p
<rqou>
egg|phone|egg: plz2remove nazis kthx :P
<awang>
And here I thought you were still working on a grad student thing
<awang>
Masters or phd
<awang>
egg|phone|egg: #kspacademia has an unusually high concentration of i18n/Unicode nuts
<bofh>
egg|phone|egg finished their masters awhile ago iirc
<awang>
Or so I've noticed
<bofh>
please, I prefer "iconv fairy" :P
<egg|zzz|egg>
yeah, in october of 2016
<egg|zzz|egg>
rqou: not sure I can do that with encoding, pluralization, or formatting
<awang>
Looks like I'm way out of the loop
<awang>
bofh: Even better
<awang>
I was looking for a phrase like that, but couldn't come up with one
<rqou>
make everybody be treated as coming from DE/FR... oh wait, wrong website :P
<egg|zzz|egg>
otoh I can yell at CLDR if you want
<egg|zzz|egg>
rqou: have you looked at the date interval format for vi
<egg|zzz|egg>
in yMMMd
<rqou>
what?
<rqou>
date interval format?
<awang>
CLDR?
<Qboid>
awang: [CLDR] => Common Locale Data Repository
<soundnfury>
egg|zzz|egg: can you _have_ names that long in Fortrash?
<bofh>
soundnfury: HEY, it's not trash! also yes. like, as of at least f90, if not f77.
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: what was the limit in 77?
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: I mean 90 is not properly capitalized anymore,
<bofh>
in F90 it's 31 chars, in F77 it's 6 but many compilers will happily nonstandardly extend this and have for years, particularly for function names.
<soundnfury>
bofh: sorry, verbal tHEY STICK TO C YOU WEENIESic.
<soundnfury>
;P
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: ah so PLZ2AP
<bofh>
indeed
<bofh>
soundnfury: hey I can call Fortran *from* C (and do this often, since doing I/O in Fortran is a trashfire) easily, so w/e :P
awang has quit [Ping timeout: 186 seconds]
<soundnfury>
bofh: yeah, well I can call C from Python. And I can call a cab from a telephone. And I can call you ugly from a long way away where you can't hit me.
<soundnfury>
And to be honest I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but you get the general vibe I think.
<bofh>
soundnfury: the point is that there's no FFI overhead here. Also I'm talking calling Fortran from C, not the reverse (which I can do just as easily tho so).
<egg|zzz|egg>
!u ≅
<Qboid>
U+2245 APPROXIMATELY EQUAL TO (≅)
awang has joined #kspacademia
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn bofh
* Qboid
gives bofh a principal crow
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn whitequark
* Qboid
gives whitequark an octanitrocubane line Буран
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn rqou
* Qboid
gives rqou a transitive gauntlet
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn котя
* Qboid
gives котя a cetacean ink bottle
<soundnfury>
!wpn egg|zzz|egg
* Qboid
gives egg|zzz|egg a francium Glamdring
<iximeow>
!wpn egg
* Qboid
gives egg a Vulcan squeezable dip pen
<iximeow>
!wpn soundnfury
* Qboid
gives soundnfury a Lipschitz RFC 2549 axe
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn iximeow
* Qboid
gives iximeow a boaty camel
<iximeow>
oo rfc 2549 is a good one
<iximeow>
bofh: I/O in Fortran is *worse* than I/O in C?