UmbralRaptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Fano. We currently target 1.3.1, 1.4.x, 1.5.1, and 1.6.1. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — @egg I'm closing my Kerbalism repository. The new one will be here https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/wiki/Satellite-Contracts
<discord-> e​gg. — ah, making an organization
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — truck factor risk mitigation.
<discord-> e​gg. — "Power is also provided during eclipses by a 24-cell 40-amp-hour nickel cadmium battery." https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/press_kits/jason1launch.pdf
<discord-> k​atchyt. — what is IRC?
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<discord-> 王​小谦同学. — @egg I mean images of Earth, I've seen many great images, but there's not many people making those images
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<discord-> n​eph. — RO on hard mode: u gotta plank until ksp is done loading
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<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — @hooya IRC is the great grandfather of chats. Internet Relay Chat. It’s as old as email, and nowadays about as common as usenet servers.
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — Suddenly I feel very old.
<discord-> h​ooya. — oh boy
<discord-> h​ooya. — for a second i thought it was some translator
<discord-> h​ooya. — haha
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — Well, @鹊桥IRC is a bot that copies everything we write here to an IRC channel, and back. In a way it is a translator between pre-MSDOS times and Web 2.0
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<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer I can't edit https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/wiki/Satellite-Contracts afaict?
<discord-> e​gg. — and I suppose that means UmbralRaptor can't either
<discord-> e​gg. — cc @steamport
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<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — Oops
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — Sec
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — @egg should work now
<discord-> e​gg. — yup I see an edit button, thanks
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<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — migration hickup.
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — but I think that will turn into a new project/mod anyway.
<discord-> e​gg. — I suppose that makes sense
<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer depending on implementation choices the earth observation stuff might turn into a heavily beefed up scansat/mapsat remake (with freshness requirements and situational characteristics like minimal solar elevation (or even constant solar elevation, sometimes that can be a requirement), nighttime imaging, glint on watery biomes, etc.)
<discord-> e​gg. — (also it would have to be somewhat Principia-compatible, predicting coverage based on 0 precession is not very useful)
<discord-> e​gg. — (that can probably be made principia-agnostic by just measuring the precession and assuming it's constant though)
<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer then again a bunch of it should be feasible with the framework of Kerbalism; see the solar elevation constraint that you added
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — That sounds like a lot of work 😃
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — The sun angle requirements could be done without kerbalism. But I’d like to have a science-over-time functionality. After all, one cannot fulfill an earth observation contract just by klicking one button at the right time.
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — Coverage/orbit prediction would be a bit different from the scansat map, which is surface fixed. I think for glint consideratio we would need a map that displays orbit ground tracks in relation to the sun
<discord-> e​gg. — well, it still all is relative to the earth to start with, you want to map *something*, the rest is constraints on top
<discord-> e​gg. — *something* can have many forms, it can be biomes, biomes within latitude ranges, or just a narrow target
<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer ^ actually this kind of plot (sofware by Capderou, the author of that satellites book) is interesting: it shows you the ground track (which is the primary interest) and then the mean solar time on top of that
<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer this is a more conventional scansat-like plot, with showing swath overlap after a subcycle http://climserv.ipsl.polytechnique.fr/ixion-out/eogj9qe5g3j0k5spuj3d4ae9c6-ca774666f853bc8b819f16df1bc28f6f.png
<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer an interesting aspect with solar elevation is that sometimes you can use the same instrument at night to do night-time imaging; the result is a different product that can't be used for the same things, and should probably be a separate experiment worth less science, but that means that the instrument would alternate working on the two experiments as it goes along its orbit
<discord-> e​gg. — (other than that it's very similar to daytime imaging, because there you don't want sun at all so you need the sun to be sufficiently far below the horizon)
<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer > But I’d like to have a science-over-time functionality
<discord-> e​gg. — Yes this is pretty clearly a requirement for anything in there, in all categories; "being in the right place long enough to click the button" doesn't constrain your orbit in any meaningful way, it is only sustained constraints that can lead to interesting orbits.
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<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer we should probably consider the implementation of the requirements somewhat separately from the visualization of how you are fulfilling them; you don't really need a map of the freshness of sunlit imagery over the Earth to figure out how to get sufficiently fresh imagery; that sort of thing could be done with something like the analyser that I'm working on for Principia (characterization
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — yep. I think the orbit ground track map could be added at a later point
<discord-> e​gg. — (mind you the underlying implementation probably needs some concept of freshness-by-location, but at least you don't have to deal with UI work)
<discord-> e​gg. — this is especially true for space telescopes: the underlying implementation should probably have an abstract concept of the very weird quantity "how much could this have been observed at <exposure duration>" over the sky, but you definitely don't want to show a map of that weirdness
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — the way SCANsat does it could more or less work... they split bodies into 360 * 180 squares (I think) and keep a big array for every body that just tracks if a given square has been scanned or not. we would need to add some aging information to that
<discord-> e​gg. — yeah
<discord-> e​gg. — I think when I get to that I'll split the Implementation section into a few chunks
<discord-> e​gg. — there's the "instantaneous computation of the conditions" part, which is trivial geometry
<discord-> e​gg. — there's the "how do we figure out what happened when we weren't looking" part, which is more annoyng
<discord-> e​gg. — and then there's the programmatic aspect such as that kind of data model
<discord-> e​gg. — > 360 * 180 squares ow that's very inhomogeneous :-p
<discord-> e​gg. — (good enough probably, might want more resolution but we'll see)
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — hehe who wants pixel-exact data anywhere but at the poles anyway 😉
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — I'll have to look at their code again.
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] pleroy opened issue #2176: Plotting frame inconsistent between C++ and C# - https://git.io/fjBAO
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] pleroy labeled issue #2176: Plotting frame inconsistent between C++ and C# - https://git.io/fjBAO
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<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer are you familiar with Majiir's work on Kethane?
<discord-> e​gg. — I think there was a more uniform decomposition of the sphere there (but obviously it's harder to work with than lat/long; it's probably best to punt on that, work with lat/long for now, and revisit as needed)
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — I've never followed up on what Kethane actually is, so no
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — now this is inconvenient.
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — time warp for long enough without paying attention to your Munar satellite
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — you no longer have a Munar satellite.
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — who needs orbital decay if they can get principia
<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer I would expect a sufficiently low munar orbit to be stable?
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — Apparently it wasn’t sufficiently low 😊
<discord-> e​gg. — yeah it's a bit surprising at first just how much Kerbin perturbs you on orbits that you would think of as low in stock
<discord-> K​urgut. — ~10 km from what I experienced
<discord-> e​gg. — there's no real concept of "low" orbit in stock KSP really
<discord-> K​urgut. — ^
<discord-> e​gg. — at least around the mun; around Kerbin Δv is the main distinction so that's there, but if you're going to the Mun anyway...
<discord-> e​gg. — I should make a KSP 1.6.1 RO install
<discord-> e​gg. — @Kurgut any recommendations for engine packs?
<discord-> e​gg. — is Zarbizaure's forgotten real engines still a thing?
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<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — @Kurgut 10km? Anything above is unstable??
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — No wonder my scanners are dust and rubble. They were at 250km
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — I think his 10km number is the amount Principia was perturbing Munar orbits.
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — Yeah but it adds up, doesn’t it
<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer 250 sounds high for the mun tbh
<discord-> e​gg. — haha the release notes on https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealHeat/releases/tag/v4.5
<discord-> e​gg. — wait, that says 1.3.1
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — https://github.com/KSP-RO/ROEngines is an option for an engine pack that accumulates just-engines from a variety of mods.
<discord-> e​gg. — augh, the RO forum thread points to individual releases that are out of date
<discord-> e​gg. — crap
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — !install
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — Hm, oops, that's also 1.3.1
<discord-> e​gg. — that's also CKAN
<discord-> e​gg. — I can install the latest versions from the RO forum links, it's just mildly confuses that it's pinned to the 1.3.1-compatible ones
<discord-> e​gg. — I can install the latest versions from the RO forum links, it's just mildly confusing/ even that it's pinned to the 1.3.1-compatible ones (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — O_O
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/155700-161-realism-overhaul-v1270-23-may-2019/ ?
<discord-> e​gg. — discord understands s/meow/moo/? O_o
<discord-> e​gg. — discord understands s/moo//moo/? O_o (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — yup
<discord-> e​gg. — fancy
<discord-> e​gg. — @DRVeyl yeah the links in the dependencies section point to specific releases, from the 1.3.1 time
<discord-> D​amien. —
<discord-> D​amien. — Yeah Kerbin takes no prisoners
<discord-> D​amien. — Could be minmus too I guess
<discord-> e​gg. — nah it's not going to be minmus doing that, it's smol
<discord-> e​gg. — Kerbin is massive and very close
<discord-> D​amien. — If minmus wants to deorbit jool who are we to say it can't
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<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] pleroy opened pull request #2177: Multiline label in the frame selector - https://git.io/fjBpE
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] pleroy commented on issue #2128: Take the engine thrust limiter into account in manœuvres - https://git.io/fjBpa
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<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3622/
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<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #2177: Multiline label in the frame selector - https://git.io/fjBpE
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] pleroy commented on pull request #2177: Multiline label in the frame selector - https://git.io/fjBpy
<discord-> e​gg. — @RaiderNick oh nice, you have Terra and Aqua in your probe pack
<discord-> e​gg. — @RaiderNick I'm using their orbits in the figure here https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/wiki/Satellite-Contracts#illumination-of-the-observed-area
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3622/
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] pleroy closed issue #2169: The description of the target LVLH frame is garbled - https://git.io/fjlAf
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] pleroy closed pull request #2177: Multiline label in the frame selector - https://git.io/fjBpE
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] pleroy pushed 2 commits to master [+0/-0/±4] https://git.io/fjBhU
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] pleroy a86c438 - Multiline label in the frame selector.
<_whitenotifier-5dfc> [Principia] pleroy 485c0c6 - Merge pull request #2177 from pleroy/2169 Multiline label in the frame selector
* discord- e​gg. — stares_
<discord-> e​gg. — ah maybe I should install RO itself, not just all its dependencies
<UmbralRaptop> Maybe egg is secretly a package manager
<discord-> e​gg. — @Pap also please spam me until I follow up on that Pluto orientation thing
<discord-> S​tandecco. — @egg have you ever tried principia? It's a nice mod, if you're installing RO I would advice to try it
<discord-> e​gg. — @Standecco I did forget to add it the first time I launched
<discord-> e​gg. — but I fixed that, I have the freshest build
<discord-> e​gg. — wait no, a new pull request got merged
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<discord-> D​amien. — @Standecco I heard that mod makes all your orbits square and squiggly. Best avoid it tbh
<discord-> S​tandecco. — @egg when is the new moon?
<discord-> S​tandecco. — @Damien oh, didn't know, ditch it then
<discord-> D​amien. — Yeah it's a terrible mod. Stay away.
<discord-> n​eph. — Principia???
<discord-> n​eph. — do you know what channel you're in lol
<discord-> S​tandecco. — yes, this is the language and offtopicer channel
<discord-> e​gg. — wow the flag is glitchy
<discord-> S​tandecco. — I've noticed that
<discord-> S​tandecco. — no idea why though
<discord-> e​gg. — hm my first stage is transparent
<discord-> e​gg. — also @lamont is angry at my rocket
<discord-> D​amien. — Stop using Romulan tech
<discord-> e​gg. — thrust is off by -40%
<discord-> e​gg. — where is the FTS
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<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — I just created my first recurring herbal alarm clock alarm: "munar 2 reboost" in 14 days.
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — I just created my first recurring kerbal/ alarm clock alarm: "munar 2 reboost" in 14 days. (edited)
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — I just created my first recurring /kerbal/ alarm clock alarm: "munar 2 reboost" in 14 days. (edited)
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — I just created my first recurring kerbal alarm clock alarm: "munar 2 reboost" in 14 days. (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — Hah
<discord-> D​amien. — One of us!
<discord-> D​amien. — Another victim successfully indoctrinated
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — That part always made me reluctant to make Space stations because of the need to refuel 😃
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<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer does a lower orbit not work?
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<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — @egg i needed a high orbit for a 30 day experiment. put it into a lower orbit now
<discord-> e​gg. — ah
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — it will act as a relay for future missions.
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — if stuff doesn’t break down before that.
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<discord-> e​gg. — @RaiderNick going to try putting your Terra into its proper orbit thanks to Principia :-p
<discord-> e​gg. — (might also do your Aqua while I'm at it)
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<discord-> e​gg. — (not with the proper launch site nor the proper launcher though, I'm making my own launcher and launching from Плесецк)
<UmbralRaptop> oh, the spelling of that site is way easier in Cyrillic
<egg> indeed
<egg> that's often the case for things spelled in cyrillic tbh
* UmbralRaptop stares at a certain mathematician
<egg> indeed
<discord-> l​amont. — rho =
<discord-> l​amont. —
<discord-> l​amont. — 2.21258509370639e+39
<discord-> l​amont. — that atmosphere is rather thick
<egg> Ꙩ_ꙩ
<egg> ferram4: what happens in that atmosphere
<discord-> e​gg. — or @ferram4 perhaps
<discord-> l​amont. — turns out exponential atmospheres get rather thick below the surface of the earth
<discord-> e​gg. — oh
<discord-> e​gg. — admittedly aerodynamics are wonky there irl
<discord-> e​gg. — but I doubt FAR deals with that all that well
<discord-> f​erram4. — What shenanigans are these?
<discord-> e​gg. — oh lol P80 thrust falloff towards the end of the burn
<discord-> e​gg. — THRUST IS OFF BY -50 %
<discord-> l​amont. — yeah
<discord-> l​amont. — thrust curves will do that to you
<discord-> e​gg. — hm
<discord-> e​gg. — the tank of my first stage is transparent
<discord-> e​gg. — should I be worried
<discord-> f​erram4. — Make a copy of the thrust curve data, recreate the format for the spline in Principia, use the thrust curve there
<discord-> f​erram4. — boom, solution
<discord-> e​gg. — that's MechJeb, not Principia
<discord-> e​gg. — we don't have closed-loop, we don't care what your rocket is doing
<discord-> e​gg. — if you want to grab a cup of coffee when you're supposed to be lighting your engine, it's not my problem
<discord-> l​amont. — @ferram4 adding backpressure to PVG (reduction in thrust in atmosphere). PVG's vacuum solution doesn't know anything about the surface of the Earth, so points may be 1,000 km into the crust. Plugging that into an exponential atmospheric model with a scale height of 8.3km or whatever it is...
<discord-> f​erram4. — Ah
<discord-> f​erram4. — So you're accounting for the bug where vehicles can clip into the planet
<discord-> f​erram4. — Good decision
<discord-> f​erram4. — Well, that only happens on bodies with no atmosphere
<discord-> f​erram4. — But still, good forethought
<discord-> e​gg. — they can't do that with Principia though
<discord-> e​gg. — since Christoffel https://twitter.com/eggleroy/status/942519531368574977
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — I think he means getting an atmosphere / surface model that makes solutions which want to go through the atmopshere/surface undesirable. 😃
<discord-> l​amont. — @ferram4 no, its just spherical-cow kind of math. with the earth as a point source of gravity and no surface.
<discord-> e​gg. — also hi ferram4, and meet the new bot @鹊桥IRC who bridges this and the IRC channel with the same name
<discord-> e​gg. — no surface, but an atmosphere
<discord-> l​amont. — the atmosphere at the center of the earth is very, very thick
<discord-> e​gg. — whereas principia treats bodies as inhomogeneous fields surrounded by a crystal sphere of death
<discord-> e​gg. — my upper stage engine is invisible
<discord-> e​gg. — it is however performing nominally
<discord-> e​gg. — one fairing is wedged
<discord-> l​amont. — clipping the atmosphere to stop at 1 atm and not get denser below the Earth's surface seems a lot better
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — Well, the particle density below the Earth's surface seems like it SHOULD be very high. What sort of error are you running into with the value you're getting?
<UmbralRaptop> … crystal sphere of death?
<UmbralRaptop> The œuf sector has scary border guards
<discord-> f​erram4. — Well, the problem with clipping the atm at the surface is that you need higher for the situation where you eventually get to handling dry land below sea level
<discord-> e​gg. — the camera feels very funky when near the poles
<discord-> G​regrox. — wait a minute. Planetary atmospheres are defined as points
<discord-> G​regrox. — why would pressure by higher under the surface?
<discord-> G​regrox. — wait a minute. Planetary atmospheres are defined as points on a curve (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — oh, I think the fairing broke the solar panels of Terra
<discord-> e​gg. — @lamont other than the fairing issues, launch went very well, thanks for the guidance!
<egg> UmbralRaptop: well, the crystal sphere of death is was introduced to prevent vessels getting close to the singularity and getting horribly oscillations in symmetric linear multistep integration (which is faster than symplectic (single-step) RK but less resilient to bad situations)
<egg> UmbralRaptop: it then turned out that it was a feature on its own, because it got rid of clipping through planets at high timewarp
<discord-> e​gg. — hm, texture replacer is spamming nullreferenceeggsceptions, and my engine is invisible
* discord- e​gg. — wonders whether this is related_
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — @egg DX11?
<discord-> e​gg. — I got a popup from whichever mod at startup telling me to -force dx11, I did that, I got the popup nevertheless (and the engines are still invisible) so I assume the flag didn't do anything
<discord-> e​gg. — maybe I misspelled it
<discord-> e​gg. — ` -force-d3d11`, that looks right
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — -force-d3d11
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — I have that
<discord-> e​gg. — yeah
<discord-> e​gg. — same
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — Also it looks like texture replacer is needed for dx11
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — Or else parts dont display properly in the VAB/SPH Parts Catalogue
<discord-> e​gg. — yeah, I have it
<discord-> e​gg. — it's spamming nullrefs
<discord-> e​gg. — I suspect my -force-d3d11 isn't doing what it's supposed to
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — There's also another mini mod that's used for DX11 too help with that
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — Oh rip
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — I'm trying to get a working 1.6.1 install and I'm getting occasional Null Refs in VAB/Leaving it and I'm not sure if I should be worried or not
<discord-> e​gg. — ```
<discord-> e​gg. — [LOG 00:17:19.199]
<discord-> e​gg. — ************************************************************************
<discord-> e​gg. —
<discord-> e​gg. — Environment Info
<discord-> e​gg. — Win32NT 7FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF Args: KSP_x64.exe -popupwindow -force-d3d11
<discord-> e​gg. — ```
<discord-> e​gg. — ```
<discord-> e​gg. — [LOG 00:17:19.510] [Scatterer] Running on Direct3D 9.0c [nvd3dumx.dll 23.21.13.8813] on Windows 7 Service Pack 1 (6.1.7601) 64bit
<discord-> e​gg. — ```
<discord-> e​gg. — doesn't sound like the -force-d3d11 did much
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — That's odd, which KSP version are you using?
<discord-> e​gg. — 1.6.1
<discord-> e​gg. — does it interact badly with -popupwindow?
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — I havnt tried -popupwindow
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — What exactly does that do?
<discord-> e​gg. — fullscreen window https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Startup_parameters
<discord-> e​gg. — behind the browser wherein I am typing I see my rocket
<discord-> e​gg. — very nice for tabbing out randomly
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — Ohh
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — So basically borderless windowed mode?
<discord-> e​gg. — yeah
<discord-> e​gg. — eggsactly
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — My KSP already acts like it when I have fullscreen om
<discord-> e​gg. — hm
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — Actually
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — Do you have KS3P installed?
<discord-> e​gg. — no?
<discord-> e​gg. — I have the dependencies listed for RSSVE
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — Ahh okay
<discord-> R​urouniDonut. — Cause KS3P was giving me tons of Null stuff last night