UmbralRaptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is 🐇. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, and 1.7.x. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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egg. — but that's very obviously not Keplerian in ECI
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Damien. — it's just refreshed again at the correct no of days
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egg. — hm, some variation of ω, but no drift
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egg. — (this is the point where I would like my analyser to start producing graphs)
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egg. — but I'm pretty sure that would quickly get out of hand
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Damien. — speaking of ground tracks, could it be possible to draw them on the actual bodies like in the pictures you use as examples?
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neph. — Why does the semimajor axis use a different punctuation convention than the other large numbers?
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egg. — possible, sure; but who's going to design the UI that allows you to do that without spamming you when you don't care
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egg. — the UI is already a tax form
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Damien. — *cough* @Sir Mortimer who designed your UI?
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egg. — @neph nah all large numbers in Principia use '
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egg. — Swiss-style numbers
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egg. — Schweizer Qualität
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neph. — Equatorial shift? An/dn pass?
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egg. — that's a bug
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neph. — Looks like the American convention
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egg. — yeah that's bad
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egg. — thanks for pointing that out
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neph. — I feel it is my patriotic duty on this Thanksgiving to note that America number one
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egg. — ah yes, large bird day
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Ampersand. — The American numerical punctuation system makes a lot of sense to me
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neph. — Delicious. I'm in the food coma presently
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Ampersand. — Unlike the rest of the imperial system
<UmbralRaptop>
Swiss style means that there's no soixsant dix-neuf silliness or the like, right?
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egg. — @Ampersand yeah but it's a deadly trap for an international audience
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egg. — because when I see 9,876, I understand that which you write 9.876, and vice-versa
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egg. — for that reason international standards forbid the use of *either* comma or full stop as a thousand separator
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egg. — (full stop is the traditional thousands separator in many places)
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Damien. — yeah in terrible places that are wrong
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neph. — 123 456 789.0?
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Damien. — 1,234.00
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egg. — @neph or 123 456 789,0; both are fine
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egg. — (typically . in English usage and , in French, but there are exceptions in either direction)
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neph. — Ambiguity rears its head for decimals sub-1k
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neph. — 123.456 vs 123,456
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egg. — @neph not if you know that neither , or . can be a grouping mark though
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egg. — both of those are 123 + 456/1000
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neph. — That assumes that you have some previous knowledge that the format is an international format and not a US or France or Germany localized one
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neph. — Back to the problem where you don't know you're looking at unless you know what you're looking
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egg. — France uses space pretty consistently
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neph. — Back to the problem where you don't know you're looking at unless you know what you're looking at (edited)
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egg. — but if you're in a technical context exchanging internationally, you can still have documents in french or in english, and numbers copied from either with commas and full stops
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egg. — you know, then, that both of these are the decimal mark
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neph. — Seems reasonable
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egg. — anyway let me fix that bug :-p
<UmbralRaptop>
Always using scientific notation would remove ambiguity >_>
<UmbralRaptop>
1.23456e3 vs 1,23456e3
* discord-
egg. — stares at the code_
<discord->
egg. — how is it producing the evil commas
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nventuro. — hello! is the rendezvous guide outdated? it says I should click on 'select target vessel' on the main window, but I cannot find that button :/
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lpg. — only shows up in map view
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neph. — If you're playing rp-1 you'll also need the appropriate ts upgrade too iirc
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nventuro. — hm, I tried installing Principia on stock and I have the same issue
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nventuro. — I'll give that a go though. thanks!
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lpg. — those particular rp-1 restrictions come _from_ stock career
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Sir Mortimer. — Upgrade your tracking station and Mission Control
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[Principia] pleroy closed pull request #2380: Propagate the part's angular velocity to the plugin - https://git.io/Je1Tq
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[Principia] pleroy pushed 4 commits to master [+0/-0/±25] https://git.io/Je1OA
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[Principia] pleroy 7714728 - Propagate the part's angular velocity to the plugin.
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[Principia] pleroy 4780b93 - Fix a compilation error.
<_whitenotifier-a3da>
[Principia] pleroy 7c89e8a - Merge pull request #2380 from pleroy/KspRotation2 Propagate the part's angular velocity to the plugin
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egg. — Hm, rotating the PlanetariumCamera in LateUpdate BetterLateThanNever doesn't seem to have the desired effect on the galaxy cube (skybox)
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egg. — anyone here played with the camera?
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Sir Mortimer. — ok contract configurator, get ready for a defeat
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[Principia] pleroy opened pull request #2382: Use a RigidMotion instead of multiple parameters when passing a part to the plugin - https://git.io/Je1EL
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[Principia] pleroy closed pull request #1884: New parameter for SetPartApparent... - https://git.io/fN2eL
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[Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #2382: Use a RigidMotion instead of multiple parameters when passing a part to the plugin - https://git.io/Je1EL
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[Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #2382: Use a RigidMotion instead of multiple parameters when passing a part to the plugin - https://git.io/Je1EL
<discord->
egg. — I think it would make sense for the camera not to rotate in the plotting frame (or equivalently to rotate with the plotting frame), so that (assuming you're focusing on a fixed body) the trajectories remain static and the things whose trajectories are shown move and trace them, instead of having the lines moving around as you warp.
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egg. —
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egg. — Further, I think it would make sense for the reference plane of the plotting frame (e.g. the ecliptic in ECSA, the moon's orbit in MCEA, the Earth's equator in ECI and ECEF) to be the camera horizontal in map view.
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egg. —
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egg. — The question is: Should this apply to the flight camera (in orbital mode) as well?
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egg. — right now the flight camera horizontal is tied to the main body, but the main body is an increasingly irrelevant and hidden concept with Principia
<_whitenotifier-a3da>
[Principia] pleroy closed pull request #2382: Use a RigidMotion instead of multiple parameters when passing a part to the plugin - https://git.io/Je1EL
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lpg. — unsure. flight camera has several modes (I've ever really learned which is what); are you thinking of a specific one?
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[Principia] pleroy pushed 4 commits to master [+0/-0/±9] https://git.io/Je12s
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[Principia] pleroy 88c8153 - Use a RigitMotion instead of multiple parameters.
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[Principia] pleroy cdd65bd - Fix a Linux compilation error.
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[Principia] pleroy 188709a - After egg's review.
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[Principia] pleroy 98b8c44 - Merge pull request #2382 from pleroy/RigidMotion Use a RigidMotion instead of multiple parameters when passing a part to the plugin
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neph. — No, in my opinion. (Note that my opinion is entirely from an RP-1 perspective) (edited)
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egg. — @lpg the orbital mode; the one where the horizontal is the main body equator right now
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neph. — Briefly, it seems to me like it'd be a ton of work to do nothing but add additional navigational utility to the flight camera. Seems like it's just going to make maneuvering with Principia before the appropriate tech unlocks even easier. The navball is for navigation. We don't need to use the camera to eyeball orientation and burns.
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neph. — From an elegance perspective, yes, it would make sense to detach fully from the "main body" concept and commit fully to the reference frames no matter what view
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lpg. — On the one hand, that sounds like giving more options, which isn't bad. On the other, as I implied, I already find the existing set of camera options confusing, adding more won't help. On the gripping hand... "more options makes things more confusion" hasn't stopped Principia before
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lpg. — On the one hand, that sounds like giving more options, which isn't bad. On the other, as I implied, I already find the existing set of camera options confusing, adding more won't help. On the gripping hand... "more options makes things more confusing" hasn't stopped Principia before (edited)
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Damien. — I don't have any strong feelings about it one way or another tbh apart from anything that helps usability and consistency is key
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egg. — @neph
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egg. — > it seems to me like it'd be a ton of work
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egg. — This is not my question; my question is whether it would be useful, I am not asking you to estimate the difficulty
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Damien. — But I'm not sure how it would affect us much in use
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egg. — (I have solved the problem for the map camera so it would likely not be much more work for the flight camera)
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neph. — I don't think it'd be useful. It'd be cool but not useful.
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egg. — Would it be obnoxious
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egg. — or could it help new players
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neph. — I'd have to play with a mockup to be able to tell. If the camera swings around madly as I change the Principia reference frame, probably
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Damien. — yeah this ^
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Damien. — it's hard to picture
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egg. — I can probably make it so that it only changes in roll, not pitch and yaw
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egg. — i.e. changing frame will tilt your head
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egg. — but not change where you look (from)
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egg. — tilts your head as it tilts your navball
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Damien. — is it a massive amount of work to mock up?
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Damien. — just thinking we could test it if not
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neph. — Again, I think it'd be cool and probably help me intuit reference frames. However, I'm still "eh" on the usefulness. If it did provide utility, it'd provide utility that would just help by allowing players to eyeball burns in a way that you can't do in real life because we didn't have referenced live cameras on early launches.
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egg. — I certainly want to do it in map view, and once it's done in map view it should be trivial to try it out in flight
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neph. — Personally, I think it's a bit silly that the camera has ANY reference to anything besides the vessel itself
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Damien. — wait I've just realised you're talking about flight, not map
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Damien. — yeah I have no idea how it'd help in flight
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neph. — imo the inflight camera should be entirely useless for any navigational reference at all
<discord->
neph. — In map view it'll be awesome
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Damien. — yeah navball is gospel in flight
<discord->
egg. — I could imagine this making things more approachable for new players (navball line = camera horizontal, navball orientation = fixed camera might make things clearer)
<discord->
egg. — since the frames are definitely a thing that is both vital and new when coming to principia from stock
<discord->
Damien. — typing with a cat in my face is h0ard
<discord->
egg. — please pet the cat
<discord->
neph. — The only way that might help is if there were also an indicator on the nav ball indicating the camera location and attitude
<discord->
Damien. — typing with a cat in my face is hard (edited)
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Damien. — hmm I've just noticed he posted after I made that bug report
<discord->
Damien. — ```Hey, sorry, just seeing this now. The answer is that stock KSP assumes that the planets have no tilt, and so I made the same assumption with KSPTOT. In other words, every planet's coordinate system is assumed to be parallel to the solar system coordinate system. It wouldn't be too hard to add in support for that, I assume. I would just need the z and (maybe) x axis directions in the solar sys
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egg. — @Damien I know no more than that ^
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Damien. — yeah I'm just flicking through the thread and it seems so
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Damien. — shame really. principia is so awesomely detailed and with so many crazy possibilities for mission profiles and yet we're reduced to launching into orbit and playing with the flight planner until we do something cool
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Damien. — or launching missions on known RL mission dates in order to to repeat what they did