UmbralRaptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is 🐇. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, and 1.7.x. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<_whitenotifier-a3da> [Principia] pleroy pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/JeP7C
<_whitenotifier-a3da> [Principia] pleroy 21e0d86 - Announce פרנקל.
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<discord-> e​gg. — פרנקל is out
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<discord-> D​amien. — \o/
<discord-> D​amien. — where's the changelog for the next release egg?
<discord-> D​amien. — it's been 10mins
<discord-> D​amien. — we demand more features
* discord- e​gg. — slaps @Damien with trout_
<discord-> e​gg. — _slaps @Damien with a trout_ (edited)
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<UmbralRaptop> why does the trout have a tail?
<discord-> e​gg. — Discord doesn't really have /me, that just italicizes; it uses _ for italics, which the bridge transmits as is
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<UmbralRaptop> ah
<discord-> M​arsu. — Did you change visual c++ for this release ?
<discord-> M​arsu. — It tells me « the Principia dll failed to load » with a dependencies missing
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — Oh. Yeah. @egg KSP 1.8 runs on a new version of unity and .NET. Did anyone here try it with 1.8 or are you legally bound to use 1.6.1 for RO?
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — I’ll have a look later
<discord-> D​amien. — @Sir Mortimer RO is on 1.7.3 now
<discord-> D​amien. — Nothing can move to 1.8 until kopernicus does
<bees> you can just recompile kopernicus against 1.8 ksp dlls and it works
<discord-> M​arsu. — Nevermind it was my visual library that was too old 😉 i update and it works
<discord-> D​amien. — If RO/RP1 was ever on the latest ksp version I'm pretty sure the universe would implode
<discord-> A​cer_Saccharum. — it would mean it's the last version of KSP
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<discord-> e​gg. — @Marsu we changed it a while ago, but I don't think we did so in this one specifically
<discord-> e​gg. — @Damien oh, I thought it was still on 1.6.1
<discord-> e​gg. — it's good to see that things are moving
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — @egg what's the latest that needs to be looked at? a build server output or the latest release?
<discord-> e​gg. — @Sir Mortimer the latest release is out, so you can play with that
<discord-> e​gg. — but given that everyone isn't yelling at us, I guess it's not completely broken
<discord-> e​gg. — first mac release built on an azure pipeline rather than by hand on an actual mac
<discord-> S​ir Mortimer. — @egg well, to be fair I think as long as you don't call KSP code that no longer exists, or interact with other modules, you should be fine even if you compiled with .NET 3.5 or whatever version it was
<discord-> s​iimav. — @egg Is there a free version of the Azure devops?
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<discord-> s​iimav. — @egg Are you on the free version of the Azure devops? (edited)
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<discord-> G​regrox. — @egg
<discord-> e​gg. — @Gregrox yes
<discord-> G​regrox. — principia did not work 😦
<discord-> e​gg. — @Gregrox have you considered looking at the error message
<discord-> e​gg. — happened to @Marsu in the backlog too
<discord-> G​regrox. — I don't know what to do about it
<discord-> G​regrox. — and would like some help
<discord-> e​gg. — have you considered reading the FAQ
<discord-> G​regrox. — is this new?
<discord-> G​regrox. — I didn't have that problem until now
<discord-> M​arsu. — Update your visual c++
<discord-> M​arsu. — It work for me
<discord-> e​gg. — To quote the FAQ,
<discord-> e​gg. — > **Read all of the frequently asked questions (and their answers), or you will incur the wrath of the egg.**
<discord-> G​regrox. — egg are you ready to behold my latest planet pack?
<discord-> e​gg. — sure
<discord-> G​regrox. — sorry for dim orbit lines
<discord-> G​regrox. — I believe I mentioned to you my plans to do this on the "17776 fan club"
<discord-> G​regrox. — I believe I mentioned to you my plans to do this on the "17776 fan club" server (edited)
<discord-> G​regrox. — I believe I mentioned to you my plans to do this on the "17776 fan club" server/greghole (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — @Gregrox lengthen the history
<discord-> e​gg. — (and warp for a while if necessary)
<discord-> e​gg. — I want to see what happens long-term
<discord-> e​gg. — a few thousand days at least
<discord-> G​regrox. — I haven't done anything yet
<discord-> G​regrox. — btw the kerbin-centric graph is also really cool
<discord-> e​gg. — oh right
<discord-> e​gg. — that's fun
<discord-> e​gg. — disturbing but fun
<discord-> e​gg. — huh, that's surprisingly stable
<discord-> e​gg. — are they exactly coplanar?
<discord-> e​gg. — also, what are their masses?
<discord-> e​gg. — and is Jool's mass the stock mass?
<discord-> G​regrox. — jool's mass is roughly 1/100th jupiter
<discord-> G​regrox. — dunno when this happened I was afk
<discord-> e​gg. — ah ok, not *that* stable
<discord-> G​regrox. — but if it means anything (I doubt it does) it doesn't *look* like a collision
<discord-> G​regrox. — it might be an integrator timestep issue
<discord-> G​regrox. — it might be an integrator timestep issue? (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — everything is a timestep issue, ultimately
<discord-> e​gg. — even a collision or near-collision; we don't model the collision, but the point masses could just do their thing
<discord-> e​gg. — the problem is that if you need stupidly small timesteps, it means bad things are happening
<discord-> e​gg. — if fast things are happening, bad things are happening
<discord-> G​regrox. — I noticed during my US2 simulation of this that the simulation would have to slow down to a crawl during the close approaches
<discord-> G​regrox. — and I was simulating at a very high accuracy there
<discord-> G​regrox. — so it may not be a stability problem
<discord-> e​gg. — yeah that's what will happen with an adaptive timestep
<discord-> G​regrox. — I mean after all
<discord-> G​regrox. — we get apocalypses with objects in very close but still stable orbits sometimes
<discord-> e​gg. — yes, but that's a different situation
<discord-> e​gg. — close orbits occur on short timescales, so it means you need your timestep to be short with respect to those timescales
<discord-> e​gg. — here your orbit is on a pretty long timescale; having things that happen on short timescales (which is what this apocalypse message indicates) means that *something changed* quickly
<discord-> e​gg. — if something changed, it's not stable
<discord-> G​regrox. — you can have things change quickly that aren't stable, like horseshoe orbits
<discord-> G​regrox. — you can have things change quickly that are stable, like horseshoe orbits (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — what's quick about horseshoes
<discord-> A​cer_Saccharum. — they usually take dozens of orbits between trades
<discord-> A​cer_Saccharum. — and each close pass is still slow-ish
<discord-> G​regrox. — during the close approach their orbits change more rapidly than one period length
<discord-> e​gg. — this is super slow
<discord-> e​gg. — > their orbits change more rapidly than one period length
<discord-> e​gg. — this statement is not very meaningful
<discord-> e​gg. — @Gregrox The error message says that the approximation error went from what it should be (roughly millimetric) to 2.14 km, 7'627'200 s after the start of the game
<discord-> G​regrox. — it seems to happen just as a close encounter is beginning
<discord-> G​regrox. — like 1.5-2x this distance
<discord-> G​regrox. — they definitely get that close on other occasions, so I can't imagine this represents an apocalypse
<discord-> e​gg. — Looks like the bodies are coming closer together over the course of many orbits
<discord-> e​gg. — > they definitely get that close on other occasions, so I can't imagine this represents an apocalypse
<discord-> e​gg. — stop imagining; it *is* a change to their motion that happens quickly, which is what we detect under the name of "apocalypse"
<discord-> G​regrox. — yes I understand that but I'm wondering what would actually happen in the real world
<discord-> G​regrox. — would these continue orbiting or would they collide or fling each other out or whatever
<discord-> e​gg. — probably one of the latter two
<discord-> G​regrox. — I just can't understand how that could happen in this case
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<discord-> e​gg. — probably collision, because ejection seems trickier with the retrograde motion, but I'm not sure
<discord-> e​gg. — @Gregrox these orbits change over time, as you can see from your own screenshots
<discord-> e​gg. — the upper satellite goes down, the lower one up
<discord-> G​regrox. — like with the vall ejection/collision you can *see* the point where things go south. In this case it looks completely normal.
<discord-> e​gg. — @Gregrox you cannot say anything about what happens after the apocalypse though; at this point what you see is *wrong*, because we detected that we miscomputed something that happened too fast; it is entirely possible that this change wasn't catastrophic yet, but eventually these things will interact more and more
<discord-> e​gg. — again, you can see from your screenshot that the upper body is going down (its line is more faded at higher altitudes than at lower ones)
<discord-> G​regrox. — is there anything I can do to the simulation settings to get a better idea of what should be happening?
<discord-> G​regrox. — to see how the objects would really behave?
<discord-> G​regrox. — even if it is unstable I want to see in what ways it is
<discord-> G​regrox. — and what happens after things start to go south
<discord-> e​gg. — switch to an SRKN, shorten the timestep
<discord-> G​regrox. — ```
<discord-> G​regrox. — fixed_step_size_integrator = BLANES_MOAN_2002_SRKN_14A
<discord-> G​regrox. — integration_step_size = 30 s
<discord-> G​regrox. — ```
<discord-> G​regrox. — this is what I'm using
<discord-> e​gg. — and it's apocalyptic with that?!
<discord-> G​regrox. — yes
<discord-> e​gg. — you're getting kilometric errors from a polynomial fit over less than five minutes
<discord-> e​gg. — things are *really* screwy
<discord-> n​eph. — That is a massive error
<discord-> n​eph. — That is a massive approximation error (edited)
<discord-> n​eph. — That is a massive approximation error for that dt (edited)
<discord-> G​regrox. — principia_numerics_blueprint
<discord-> G​regrox. — {
<discord-> G​regrox. — ephemeris
<discord-> G​regrox. — {
<discord-> G​regrox. — fixed_step_size_integrator = BLANES_MOAN_2002_SRKN_14A
<discord-> G​regrox. — integration_step_size = 30 s
<discord-> G​regrox. — fitting_tolerance = 1 mm
<discord-> G​regrox. — geopotential_tolerance = 0x1.0p-24
<discord-> G​regrox. — }
<discord-> G​regrox. — }
<discord-> G​regrox. — to be clear
<discord-> A​cer_Saccharum. — 2km in 30 seconds is absolutely wild
<discord-> G​regrox. — this is the correct syntax correct?
<discord-> e​gg. — @Acer_Saccharum 9 * 30 s
<discord-> G​regrox. — maybe I'm not patching it
<discord-> G​regrox. — maybe I'm not patching it right (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — @Gregrox I think so, if you use the wrong syntax it should crash
<discord-> G​regrox. — maybe I need an "@" somewhere (though I don't have one in my WW config, which works)
<discord-> e​gg. — try replacing 1 mm by 1 gregrox
<discord-> e​gg. — if it crashes, you're using it
<discord-> e​gg. — if it's not crashing, your config does nothing
<discord-> G​regrox. — good idea trying now
<discord-> G​regrox. — just got back from catching my dog
<discord-> G​regrox. — he is really good at escaping >:v
<discord-> G​regrox. — yep it crashed @egg
<discord-> G​regrox. — so it was patching it
<discord-> G​regrox. — time for 1 second integrator
<discord-> G​regrox. — time for 1 second integrator step size (edited)
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<discord-> G​regrox. — @egg with a 1 second integrator step size there is no apocalypse and no noticeable change in orbits
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<discord-> e​gg. — @Gregrox noticeability is hard; try looking at the relevant encounter in another frame (maybe centred on one of the bodies)?
<discord-> e​gg. — @Gregrox also, try running it for very long periods of time, let's see how much the orbits drift
<discord-> e​gg. — @Gregrox or just mail me the mod & config so I can poke at it too
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<discord-> G​regrox. — I'll send it to you when i get home
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<_whitenotifier-a3da> [Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #2379: Get the inertia tensor of the body and push it to the plugin - https://git.io/JePtG
<_whitenotifier-a3da> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier-a3da> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3970/
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<_whitenotifier-a3da> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/3970/
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