raptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Gateaux. We currently target 1.8.1, 1.9.1, and 1.10.1. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly… | <egg> also 4e16 m * 2^-52 is uncomfortably large
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Ω, i, ω are all zero while α and δ have no impact on the outputted ω , which is -90. The output i is 90-δ and the output Ω is α-90 in this equatorial case like expected.
<discord->
egg. — @WarriorSabe I think the issue is that you are hitting a singularity in the formulae
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — It remains similar if I put small but nonzero values in for other things
<discord->
egg. — do not use strictly equatorial orbits, plug in a tiny inclination
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — > It remains similar if I put small but nonzero values in for other things
<discord->
egg. — hmm
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — No observed singularity
<discord->
egg. — this may be a bug
<discord->
egg. — let me think
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<discord->
WarriorSabe. — But if I add 90 to ω before plugging it in, I get values that appear to be correct
<discord->
egg. — please do not make assumptions on what is correct
<discord->
egg. — seriously
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — What
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I'm just saying
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — That it *appears* to be, which may be useful
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — That it *appears* to be, which may be useful information (edited)
* raptop
slaps the bridge with a BMP (no, not a БМП)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I'm not assuming its correct, I'm just saying it *might* be correct
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — And looks correct at least in simplified cases
<egg|laptop|egg>
You likely have a typo in the formulae
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Here's a picture of my Desmos (it doesn't like greek letter so I had to swap them out)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Here's a picture of my Desmos (it doesn't like greek letters so I had to swap them out. Ω_eq is l while Ω is L, ω_eq is p while ω is P, α and δ are a and d) (edited)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — What's wrong with that? Is axis_right_ascension not equal to α?
<egg|laptop|egg>
yes, and for the Earth it is 0
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — That's not Earth
<egg|laptop|egg>
yes but this defines the direction of the tilt
<egg|laptop|egg>
and therefore it defines the origin of the body-equator right ascension
<egg|laptop|egg>
the formulae are correct, but if you ask them to put in a 90 degree offset they will do that
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — α is not equal to 90 though, and has no impact on what offset I get
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — α is not equal to 90 though, and has no impact on what offset I get (given equatorial inputs; inclining does make an impact but it's not enough to make it be an offset) (edited)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — It changes the Ω, but that is changing like I'd expect it to. The one that isn't doing what I'd expect it to is ω
<discord->
egg. — ah OK nevermind, I had my plot set wrong. the offset is indeed a thing, and it is correct.
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — You also said yourself that α = 0 lies at a right ascension of 90, so would it not follow that that is where the offset of my argument of periapsis is coming from?
<discord->
egg. — you should not correct it.
<discord->
egg. — because there is nothing to correct.
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Hmm
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I am noticing that if I make the declination really close to 90 it suddenly starts collapsing to 0
<discord->
egg. — the offset comes from the fact that, since we are at a singularity, as δ goes down, the ascending node very quickly moves to the Q axis
<discord->
egg. — yes
<discord->
egg. — that is what you are seeing
<discord->
egg. — for an equatorial orbit, the ascending node is poorly defined, or, equivalently, very highly dependent on the equator
<discord->
egg. — so as you tilt the equator by reducing δ, the node flies away
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — It's the opposite that's happening
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — The 90 degree offset happens when it's away from 90
<discord->
egg. — yes
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — The 90 degree offset happens when the pole's declination away from 90 (edited)
<discord->
egg. — that is what I am saying
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Or am I misreading you
<discord->
egg. — 90 degrees declination means the pole coincides with the Earth’s pole (I am going to refer to the Earth otherwise we will run out of words)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I think the two of us just communicate very differently in a subtle way that makes it hard for us to fully understand each other
<raptop>
Obviously the solution is to switch to speaking French
<discord->
egg. — So let’s say you have an Earth-equatorial orbit, and your body is parallel to the Earth: the node is not well-defined
<discord->
egg. — if you tilt your body a tiny bit, the node will begin being defined, because with respect to your body the orbit is nearly-equatorial
<discord->
egg. — but it will be very sensitive to the exact value of δ
<discord->
egg. — up until δ is significant (your body is very tilted with respect to Earth, and your orbit very inclined with respect to your body), at which point the node
<discord->
egg. — and the Q point of the WGCCRE construction will coincide
<discord->
egg. — @WarriorSabe anyway, tl;dr: this is doing the right thing, do not try to apply corrections to things that you do not understand, and try to ignore your expectations about things that you do not understand, because they will lead you to do things that make no sense.
<discord->
egg. — up until δ is significant (your body is very tilted with respect to Earth, and your orbit very inclined with respect to your body), at which point the node and the Q point of the WGCCRE construction will coincide (edited)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — That's why I asked you instead of just plugging it in and going along with that
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — If I thought that that correction was seriously correct I wouldn't have asked
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — It was merely a data point to try and help show what exactly I was describing
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — But now I know I should never try and present anything that looks like evidence to you because you will just get mad at me for "making assumptions"
<discord->
egg. — it is fine to make an observation (and it is a geometrically interesting one), to suggest that it is wrong is dangerous (you should actively refrain from having expectations about tricky geometry like this or you will shoot yourself in the foot), to suggest a hacky workaround will lead to the wrath of the egg
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Again, not what I was doing
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — And again, we just don't seem to be able to understand each other's ways of speaking
<discord->
egg. — well, you were evidently very confused, since you thought that there was a Principia reference frame and a Kopernicus reference frame 90° off from each other
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I just didn't know how better to word what I was saying
<discord->
egg. — no, I think this is not the correct problem here
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Which clearly lead to you thinking I was saying something different
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — And the whole reference frame thing was based on a thing you said, which I apparently misinterpreted
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Basically: neither of us can understand the other's ways of speaking, evidently
<discord->
egg. — this is a more likely interpretation ; maybe you could have somehow read my footnote that way
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — You tell me that I'm making assumptions I'm not, I answer questions that aren't being asked. There's just some level of language barrier between us
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Raptop mentioned something about french; if that is your native language than that's probably the root of it because from what I'm aware of that's basically the opposite of how I talk and tend to interpret things.
<discord->
Kirk. — egg speaks english just fine
<discord->
Kirk. — I suspect you do not speak math very well
<discord->
egg. — I don’t think the issue is one of language, considering that I speak English at work, with everyone here, and by and large mostly am understood
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Not what I meant
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I mean, your native language will affect how you use other languages
<discord->
lpg. — you should maybe quit while you're behind
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Your English seems just fine, but it is being used in a way I'm not used to
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — And wdym by "do not speak math very well"
<discord->
egg. — @lpg has a point, my job amusingly involves linguistics :-p
<discord->
Kirk. — I suspect he speaks differently because of his background in advanced mathematics, not French
<discord->
egg. — I mean that people who do mathematics have a particular manner of speaking, with a great focus on every word having a specific meaning
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I can do math just fine, though I have not yet learned much beyond calculus
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — But whatever the reason, there is definitely some barrier of communication between us.
<discord->
egg. — every word there is there for a reason
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Well, I have no idea what the WGCCRE is, but that particular sentence was not one I had too much trouble understanding
<discord->
egg. — the working group on cartographic coordinates of the international astronomical union.
<discord->
egg. — the working group on cartographic coordinates and rotational elements of the international astronomical union. (edited)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Reading back over, I think the problem is that a lot of things you end up saying relies on me knowing things I don't, and I am not eloquent enough to use the most accurate words and so they go misinterpreted in either meaning or intent.
<discord->
egg. — I think also there is a problem of not answering specific questions under the assumptions that other information is more pertinent
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — No
<discord->
egg. — e.g., at 00:48, I say
<discord->
egg. — > which values of α and δ
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — The specific questions were being misinterpreted
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — And I answered that
<discord->
egg. — I got an answer to that only at 01:06 (and then figured it out at 01:13)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — But when you ask what I am doing, I answer in the way I thought you meant
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — It's not a matter of me substituting information, it's a matter of me thinking you are asking some slightly different question, or answering in a format you were not expecting
<discord->
egg. — Yes, I think you need to read my questions literally
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I try to
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — But like I said, there is sometimes information missing
<discord->
egg. — more generally it is a good idea when someone provides you with technical help (with a mod or with maths, no matter) to answer questions in the most technical and literal way possible
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Again, I try to, *but I am missing critical information that you seem to think I have and do not always have the exact correct words to answer the question with*
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Again, I try to, *but I am missing critical information that you seem to think I have and do not always know the exact correct words to answer the question with* (edited)
<discord->
egg. — (conversely when you are the one providing support it helps to step back from the question)
<discord->
egg. — Anyway, it is 1:51, I think I should sleep, have a good night
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — So, when I answer your questions wrong, it's not that I'm not reading it literally (I often take things *too* literally), it's that there is ambiguity that I cannot resolve accurately. And it's not that I don't try to respond literally, it's that I simply am not an eloquent person
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* raptop
is going to be bothered if this is an NT vs ASD thing
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — What are those
<raptop>
...that answers that
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I don't know every acronym in existence; that was an actual question
<raptop>
neurotypical vs autism spectrum 'disorder'
<raptop>
(actually, I don't know for sure with egg. this is a guess based in part on relevant communities that he's in)
<discord->
egg. — I’m just a perfeggtly normal egg
<raptop>
Anyway, there's also the math aspect, so if you don't understand something, ask for definitions for all terms?
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Then sounds like yes, because I am on the autism spectrum (the high-functioning end, though that doesn't seem to strongly include my ability to communicate super well)
<raptop>
hrm
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I'm also only 19
<discord->
egg. — Anyway, tips for the future: answer questions in the most boringly literal way possible, and if the question is unclear or ambiguous, ask for clarifications, because answering away in the wrong direction is unlikely to help
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I am trying to answer as literal as possible, the issue is obviously the "as possible" part since I seem to often be at a loss to describe things the exact way I mean them
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — And I guess I've just gotten used to constantly trying to clarify things making people more angry than occasionally being wrong about what they're asking (I don't seem to get that wrong with other people nearly as often as with you)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I am trying to answer as literal as possible (it's the only way I know how, really), the issue is obviously the "as possible" part since I seem to often be at a loss to describe things the exact way I mean them (edited)
<discord->
egg. — I think that last part is, as Kirk et al. pointed out, mostly about unfamiliar domains
<discord->
egg. — I think that last part (the parenthetical) is, as Kirk et al. pointed out, mostly about unfamiliar domains (edited)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Yeah, you clearly aren't much like other people I talk to in the ways relevant to filling in the blanks, given that the normal things don't seem to work
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Plus just all the things you know and reference that I don't
<discord->
egg. — I think it is not so much me as it is the subject; it is hard to fill in the blanks when you are in unknown territory, and this is tricky geometry where the blanks are treacherous :-)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — Well, I was combining your manner of speaking with the things being spoken about when I said "in the ways relevant"
<discord->
egg. — ah
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — The problem here I think comes down to the fact that since I am not the best at communication, the subconscious guidelines and algorithms that have been developed end up being a bit rigid, and so I have a hard time communicating far from the median I've been trained for.
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — But at this point I'm just speculating as to the functioning of my subconscious
<discord->
egg. — well, that seems useful, in that if you know in what way things go wrong you may be able to correct for that
<discord->
egg. — I got an answer to that only at 01:06 (and then figured it out at 01:19) (edited)
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — I think part of why it does end up so rigid is that normal communication is also not super close to how I naturally think, and so the the more unnatural way I normally have to try to speak results in a greater effort being put into doing so, reinforcing that more
<discord->
WarriorSabe. — But, I think I should probably stop trying to speculate as to how my subconscious works since I do have things I need to get back to now
<discord->
egg. — likewise I ought to sleep
<discord->
egg. — what with it being, uh, quarter past two
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<discord->
lpg. — bug or behavior I don't understand? with a 2-maneuver flight plan, hitting the Rebase button moves the location of the 2nd maneuver marker
<discord->
lpg. — the maneuver's actual time (inadvertently cropped) isn't actually changing, so seems to be the flight plan _before_ it that changes, affecting where the vessel is expected to be at the appointed time
<discord->
n9gaming. — Any known fix for inclinations not displaying correctly?
<discord->
egg. — the properties of the underlying stock orbits are displayed by the game and by other mods with respect to the equator of the current main body; I am not aware of utilities that would display it in a different reference frame.
<discord->
egg. — @lpg huh. this is odd. Any fancy rendez-vous stuff that might make it very sensitive to initial conditions?
<discord->
lpg. — there's a near-ish (50km?) flyby of ganymede between the two maneuvers
<discord->
egg. — that might be it
<discord->
egg. — the flight plan integration is done with a an adaptive step size aiming for a 1 m local tolerance, so it is not as accurate as the real thing; rebasing will change things a tiny bit
<discord->
egg. — @lpg btw I have a question about 2400: it has come to our attention that, besides being big, the histories of satellites that stay in low orbit can also not really be plotted (that will cover your map view in a dense mesh and stop your computer in the process), so that it may make sense to outright forget the histories of satellites; now in order to not resurrect the "forget history" setting that beca
<discord->
egg. — basically, two kinds of vessels, « probes » and « satelites », by default everything is a probe, but if we notice that something stays in orbit you can make it a satellite, at which point a history is kept spanning a fixed number of revolutions
<discord->
egg. — (this resolves the question of « how long should history be », because the orbital period gives you a timescale, and requiring an orbital period means that you naturally can do this only to satellites—which conveniently are the problematic ones)
<discord->
egg. — what do you think?
<discord->
lpg. — knee-jerk, I don't like the idea of a heuristic I can't control, but I'll get over that. The concept makes sense to me, if it's feasible
<discord->
egg. — I wasn’t thinking of making it fully automatic
<discord->
egg. — more of « hey, this thing looks like a satellite, do you care about its history »
<discord->
egg. — 📎 « it looks like you are trying to maintain a satellite »
<discord->
lpg. — > that will cover your map view in a dense mesh and stop your computer in the process)
<discord->
lpg. — That depends on the orbit and the reference frame; a "perfect" molniya orbit will be a dense mesh in one frame, a beautiful perfect line in another. However if it's a perfect line, I guess it doens't matter how far back it goes
<discord->
egg. — yeah, and even there the fixed number of orbits can safely be large
<discord->
lpg. — Careful though, once players know you can recognize a satellite, they'll be asking you for station keeping
<discord->
egg. — so that you can see the mesh pattern of recurrent ground tracks over a small number of revolutions (but nobody wants to look at a ball of yarn of orbits orbits)
<discord->
lpg. — Careful though, once players know you can recognize a satellite, they'll be asking you (more) for station keeping (edited)
<discord->
egg. — hahaha
<raptop>
Apropros nothing, the bridge doesn't deal gracefully with eggstremely long lines
<raptop>
(but does handle the paperclip emoji)
<discord->
egg. — my answer to that is « go bug @XKdiver, I don’t do control theory »
<discord->
egg. — (note that the existing work on compact representation will likely still see some use, but to represent the trajectories of planets instead: we still need to have long histories for the « probes », which need a long history of where the planets are to be displayed, so we still need to resolve the problem that recomputing the solar system for 50 years at every scene load is annoying)
<discord->
egg. — so that you can see the mesh pattern of recurrent ground tracks over a small number of revolutions (but nobody wants to look at a ball of yarn of orbits 🧶 ) (edited)
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<discord->
Zeusbeer. — I haven't been here in a while
<discord->
Zeusbeer. — I bet there is still no solution for 2400 implemented in the latest version?
<discord->
Zeusbeer. — has the satelite constellation view been implemented ? I see you talking about a ball of yarn of orbits 👀
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<discord->
Butcher. — Hmm, I should update my Principia.
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<discord->
sichelgaita. — 2400 is hard, let's go shopping.
<discord->
Damien. — 2400 so called because it's how many cups of coffee it'll take to fix
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<discord->
DRVeyl. — > the properties of the underlying stock orbits are displayed by the game and by other mods with respect to the equator of the current main body; I am not aware of utilities that would display it in a different reference frame.
<discord->
DRVeyl. — @egg Can you clarify? I gather you are suppressing the stock OrbitRenderer, and you're drawing your own map markers. Are you not suppressing some of the stock map markers, so they're sort of left over? I can't quite tell what those small lines @lpg was highlighting are supposed to be.
<discord->
egg. — my reply was to n9gaming, about elements, not to lpg; aside from weird contract stuff that we didn’t look into, you should never see a marker or a line from the stock orbits
<discord->
egg. — but obviously stock/MJ/KER/etc. orbital element displays will show you the properties of the underlying `Orbit`
<discord->
egg. — which is the osculating orbit, so it does have some meaning
<discord->
DRVeyl. — Ok, that makes much more sense to me now.
<discord->
egg. — but the elements are in the current axes of the game, which, in Principia, change depending on the main body
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<discord->
Miksu. — what is principia?
<discord->
smartdummies. — @egg for the histories, would it be possible to use the PAW to switch between "probe" and "satellite"? A fair number of "satellites" are for science gathering or contracts where you will initially care but once you are finished you don't care anymore. So the ability to switch a "satellite" to a "probe" easily would be useful
<discord->
egg. — you mean a probe to a satellite? (a probe being a thing where you keep the history forever)
<discord->
egg. — what is the PAW?
<discord->
egg. — 🐾
<discord->
smartdummies. — Part Action Window
<discord->
smartdummies. — And yes
<discord->
lpg. — I don't see how that would be better than the normal principia window
<discord->
egg. — well the idea is that you would get some way to switch it to satellite if it is in an orbit, whether that ends up being in the PAW seems like a detail
<discord->
lpg. — (it'd be worse in at least one way: the principia window is usable from the tracking sation)
<discord->
lpg. — (it'd be worse in at least one way: the principia window is usable from the tracking station) (edited)
<discord->
smartdummies. — Also as I think about it, I am not sure an how much history is needed for a craft orbiting the sun. Even a few orbits around the sun is a lot, especially in RSS. Maybe trim these?
<discord->
egg. — note that there is no point in abbreviating the history of a thing which is not in an orbit, because such histories are very compact
<discord->
egg. — yeah, a few orbits around the sun is a lot of *time*, but not that much space in terms of representation
<discord->
smartdummies. — If at all possible (might be too much work for the added convenience) right clicking the vessel to switch it's destination would be quite nice
<discord->
egg. — vessel trajectories that are very straight are very compact with the current representation
<discord->
smartdummies. — OK. By "orbit" you specifically mean around a planet or moon
<discord->
egg. — I mean a thing detected by the orbit analyser, an orbit around the sun is an orbit too
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<discord->
lamont. — do you pack them into something like a cubic hermite spline interpolator?
<UmbralRaptop>
あああああああああ hermite polynomials
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<discord->
Sir Mortimer. — What eggery is going on here, I scrolled up to find screenshots filled to the brim with scary looking trigonometry
<discord->
Sir Mortimer. — And now raptop is writing hiragana
<raptop>
Should I scream in terror in a different writing system?
* raptop
is dreading quals
<discord->
Sir Mortimer. — I wonder if I could type Japanese on this here iPad. Probably, but I forgot most of it and can’t be bothered to fiddle with the locale settings
<discord->
Sir Mortimer. — I’ll be back at playing go 🙂
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<discord->
egg. — @XKdiver yeah this is the current scheme
<raptop>
...locale settings? There should just be a keyboard that you can activate
<raptop>
Granted, Japanese isn't one of the 3 human languages, but it's common enough
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<discord->
Butcher. — Oh, forgot I was on a crashy version of Principia, guess I should install Gauss.
<discord->
lpg. — or wait a few days for the next one
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<_whitenotifier-9244>
[Principia] lpgagnon commented on issue #2640: Crash during flight planning - https://git.io/JkLDt
<discord->
lpg. — "lowest altitude: 3591km" "altitude of mean periapsis: 3259 ±129km"
<discord->
lpg. — is there a simple explanation for that apparent discrepancy?
<discord->
egg. — Fairly perturbed orbit I guess?
<discord->
egg. — The mean periapsis is a statement about the overall shape and size of the orbit, it has no direct geometric meaning, so if the orbit has noticeable perturbations the local geometric property "lowest altitude" need not correspond