egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ do you folks have experience with how many vessels principia starts slowing things down? I was running a stock career for a change and after some 25 or so rockets in various orbits around kerbin, mun and minmus the game was lagging so much that doing a burn with principia was painful. Like the physics sim was running at may 1/3rd of a second per second real time.
<queqiao->
On my previous RP-1 saves, I was not typically running very many objects in orbit just because it takes longer to design rockets, etc. And I'm quite intrigued with PLC so I will probably start a new save soon. But I don't want to have to abandon after 20 launches just because the game becomes unplayable.
<queqiao->
So here my question: Is it safe-ish to play RP-1 with Principia, or should I play RP-1 without Principia and then just play like a single multi-fly-by mission with Principia in sandbox?
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ ⟪icey314159⟫ do you folks have experience with how […] ⮪ i am in 1980 and have done another game where i got to 1982, its fine to play principia with both there is of course slowdown as you put more stuff into orbit, i clean my vessels in the tracking station every so often depending on if i feel its needed, and in terms of flybys yea its gonna be slow especially on long stuff ( i just did the grand tour for example and it...
<queqiao->
... was quite painful but thats an exception not the rule) so long as you clean it shouldnt be an issue
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ of course this also depends on your PC specs, i have around id say
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ 30 ish vessels in the tracking station prob closer to 40
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ as it does run up due to my space station launches
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ the PC is good. It's like 2 years old or something, 64 GB RAM, 3090 and a Ryzen 5900X. No reason to assume it's slow.
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ do you have debris?
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ * debris in that stock game?
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ also maybe check if asteroids exist in the game and how many 🤔
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ ⟪test_account9540⟫ do you have debris in that stock game? ⮪ I have set it to 0 debris, after I noticed the lag.
<queqiao->
As for asteroids, I didn't change anything, so it's probably in the stock setting at the moment
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ ⟪test_account9540⟫ do you have debris in that stock game? ⮪ one thing that might be the problem is the craft itself. It has got quite a few sensors on it, so it's probably a fairly "complicated" craft
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ 100+ parts definitely start lagging
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ from what I understand, principia models some of the physics even when you're not flying the ship?
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ AFAIK when you're not flying the ship, it's "packed" so the individual parts are not accessible to principia or anything else
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ it also depends on what you define as lag, i have a pretty high tolerance because i tend to use crafts that have a lot of parts
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ AFAIK when you're not flying the ship, […] ⮪ so principia only affects the movement of the vessel as a whole, which it of course does all the time for all vessels
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ as I say, it was something like 3 seconds real time per in-game second?
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ ⟪icey314159⟫ I have set it to 0 debris, after I […] ⮪ KSP creates asteroids even if you can't currently see them iirc and they're treated as crafts so get the full principia treatment. The way to disable them is to move/delete the potatoroid folder in squad/parts somewhere
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ ⟪icey314159⟫ as I say, it was something like 3 […] ⮪ your PC has better specs than mine, you can see in #missionreports where i am in my game to give you an idea as well
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ i can complete a resupply mission in under 20 minutes
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ no problem
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ same with any sortie to and from LEO
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ ⟪Damien⟫ KSP creates asteroids even if you can't […] ⮪ does RSS/RO do that out-of-the box? Because if so, that could very well explain it
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ ⟪icey314159⟫ does RSS/RO do that out-of-the box? […] ⮪ KSP does it regardless of RSS/RO so yeah
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ poor vesta its technically an asteroid haha but not a ksp asteroid
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ it may or may not be after you upgrade the tracking station etc to be able to see them but either way, yeah they get created automatically
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ as in does RSS/RO delete them?
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ ⟪icey314159⟫ as in does RSS/RO delete them? ⮪ no
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ tbh it should, there is nothing real about them
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ ok, so a new RP-1 save better delete them with principia, got it
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ thanks for the reassurance 🙂 I love principia
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ ⟪icey314159⟫ thanks for the reassurance 🙂 I love […] ⮪ me too. I can't play without it now
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ even if I only play regular KSP
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ icey314159 some actual numbers, in 1979 i had 44 crafts, in 1980 (where i am now) i have 26 in flight
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ protip though, don'#t let RSSRO be the first time you play principia. I made that mistake and I got a massive boost to my principia knowledge by later going back and speedrunning the usual KSP milestones in stock (or RSS w/ smuff) KSP
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ * don't
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ learning all the principia quirks while also being handicapped by the slow RO progression is inefficient
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ better to learn it all with the benefit of infinte throttlable engines etc then bring those skills back to RO
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ personally i had no issue i just added it and learned on the way
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ ⟪Rennic⟫ personally i had no issue i just added […] ⮪ me too originally but it's hard to master stuff like gravity assists and interplanetary maneuvers when it takes forever to get to that point in RO/RP-1
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ better to have those skills before you need them
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ ⟪Damien⟫ me too originally but it's hard to […] ⮪ i dont really see it as forever but uh lol
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ seeing as mastering the UI is the hardest part of principia
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ the hardest part is the 1 fps 1500 day plot maneuvers with gravity assists
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ 20 minutes to set up a maneuver lol
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ ⟪Rennic⟫ i dont really see it as forever but uh […] ⮪ you can speedrun everything you may need to know in principia in a day in non-RO/RP-1 RSS, or regular stock. It takes a lot longer doing it live in a full RP-1 game when you have build times, engine failures etc etc
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ ⟪Damien⟫ you can speedrun everything you may […] ⮪ yes but non rp1 is boring af
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ and id rather not waste my time
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ I got a massive boost to my understanding of principia stuff by setting up a second, test install
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ and used that to experiment
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ like setting up molniya constellations, sunsync orbits, lunar NRHO, low energy transfers etc etc
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ speaking of voyager 1 is about to approach saturn
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ you acn even see Titan on the top right there
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ having that second install is like having a sim environment where the UI is the only variable you have to worry about
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ on my previous saves I did a 4 sat geostationary constellation
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ where the satellites had to "rendez-vous" 90 degrees off
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ also did multiple moon missions
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ as well as a venus fly by
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ and some lagrange points xD
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ I personally find the targetting reference frames very convenient. Only real quirks I noticed:
<queqiao->
- you better really understand what frame to pick as the maneuvre frame
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ I personally find the targetting reference frames very convenient. Only real quirks I noticed:
<queqiao->
- you better really understand what frame to pick as the maneuvre frame
<queqiao->
- mechjeb is not great at executing burns
<queqiao->
- multiple burns lead to mechjeb getting it completely wrong (due to a bug I analyzed)
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ the maneuver frame is a trap
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ yeah. Especially that you probably want to burn prograde relative to your current body, but plot in the transfer frame
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ confused me the first few times
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ easy to forget it's ECEF, etc
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ for a moon transfer, I typically burn in ECI but plot in the transfer frame
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ in fact, maybe the warning shown by principia should be different'
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ now it warns that maneuver frame is differen from plotting frae, but this is normal
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ * different from plotting frame,
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ close to a body yeah. During a correction, it's probably fine, no?
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ i think it should warn if maneuver frame is not the inertial frame of current SOI body
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ in red
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ yeah, something like that. Does Principia have a notion of soi?
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ or is it just the body with the biggest force?
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ the game still tracks SOI
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ and voyager 2 is on the way to pluto as well which is gonna be fun never been to pluto before gonna take 3000 days from where it is now
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ that 1 fps plotting gaming
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ used jupiter to give me an assist to saturn and used saturn to give me an assist to pluto
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ Rennic do you do the math up front entirely or you just plan a single fly-by hoping that something else will be near by?
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ ⟪icey314159⟫ Rennic (@_discord_598727511827808266:mat[…] ⮪ the math? i know certain launch windows and then i launch with TWP on them and then i plan the flight path from earth to the end target
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ so 1977 is the grand tour launch window for example
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ 1979 is a jupiter launch window
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ 1984 is another window
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ I see, so you take historical missions as a guide, then?
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ historical windows yea and missions to inform me of what is possible
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ am following an alt history timeline where voyager 2 is sent to pluto and voyager 3/4 go to uranus and neptune
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ and funnily enough it all lines up nicely and il be able to fly by pluto extremely close to it
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ may even get a shot to see charon
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ but thats gonna be in 1989
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ (am in late 1980 atm0
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ takes like 11 years to go from earth to pluto with those assists
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ * 13-14
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ better than hohmann =p
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ considering the transfer was like 7km/s around there to jupiter id say its worth it hahaha
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ 1t to Pluto
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ thats somin lol
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ if you dont mind waiting 14 years
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ I once looked at a direct hohmann and that would've been like 40 years or so
<queqiao->
⟨icey314159⟩ something crazy like that anyway
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ took new horizon 9 years to reach pluto in reality
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ that was a direct transfer
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ so as fast as your prob gonna get
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ that was a direct transfer ⮪ nvm nasa confused me it did a jupiter flyby
<queqiao->
⟨leudaimon⟩ not so bad to do it in 13/14... it did Jupiter gravity assist though
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ yea voyager 2 here is doing a saturn flyby as well
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ i imagine new horizon had a lot more energy put into it and jupiter is a bigger gravity assist then saturn is
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ launched september 1977 will arrive january 1989
<queqiao->
⟨leudaimon⟩ yeah, it's crazy how Jupiter can make you get anywhere faster than with a hohmann transfer
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ so more like 11/12 years
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ which am very happy about
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ i have never gone further than jupiter before so this is all new to me
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ cant wait to see pluto, saturn was a beaut
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ so crazy to me how we have such close photos of an object that far from us
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ Also i can claim it as a planetary flyby since it will be 1989 so plutos still a planet god damnit
<queqiao->
⟨Al₂Me₆⟩ ⟪Rennic⟫ the hardest part is the 1 fps 1500 day […] ⮪ That bad even with full declutter?
<queqiao->
⟨Rennic⟩ ⟪Al₂Me₆⟫ That bad even with full declutter? ⮪ yes lol
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<queqiao->
⟨champ0220⟩ Is masscons on the moon simulated in principia?
<queqiao->
⟨Quadrupole🇵🇸🇸🇾🇨🇺⟩ Yes
<queqiao->
⟨Quadrupole🇵🇸🇸🇾🇨🇺⟩ Check the pinned message if you want a frozen orbit
<queqiao->
⟨champ0220⟩ Oh that’s actually really cool, principia be cool af
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ ⟪test_account9540⟫ i think it should warn if maneuver […] ⮪ We have orbit analysis, so probably if it is not the inertial frame of the primary of the detected orbit.
<queqiao->
We don’t do red, we have orange for warnings.
<queqiao->
I worry this might be too strong, because e.g. when planning adjustments in the vicinity of Lagrange points, the plotting frame is probably the least confusing option.
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ Yes, the warning can't really cover all possible use cases
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ But certainly the current message is largely useless. In fact, it is conveying information that you can easily ascertain visually (the yellow thingy is not pointing forward). We could just replace it with a still-informative (same colour) message saying that forward is not forward along the orbit.
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ Would that work even if the player has never opened the orbit analyzer window?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ The flight plan auto-analyses every coast, that is how you get the +1/-1 revolution buttons.
<queqiao->
⟨test_account9540⟩ Maybe the message could also point to the correct reference frame, saying something like "Choose ECI for a prograde burn along the orbit"?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ That seems like a good idea, space permitting (and I think Al₂Me₆ has ideas about making space permit anyway).
<queqiao->
⟨Al₂Me₆⟩ ⟪test_account9540⟫ Maybe the message could also point to […] ⮪ If we implement this we may as well have an 'infer manoeuvre frame' feature
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ ⟪Al₂Me₆⟫ If we implement this we may as well […] ⮪ Well, we have one already, when you create the manœuvre it comes with a frame. But it is the plotting frame by default. The inertial frame of the primary might be a better default, but this is really questionable for the more interesting trajectories, so I would not want to disrupt too much there.