egg|nomz|egg changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> egg|nomz|egg: generally if your eyes are dewing over, that's not the weather. | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer.
<bofh>
and YES I'VE HAD THE SAME ISSUE WITH GODBOLT RECENTLY, GRR.
<egg>
!u ‘
<Qboid>
U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK (‘)
<egg>
bofh: yeah it's very recent
<egg>
bofh: I linked you something that shows xʹ compiling and x′ not last week, I think it still worked
<egg>
bofh: I mean it makes perfect sense that you would have a letter of that, because phonetic notation spacing diacritics *are* letters
<egg>
bofh: ʻOumuamua should be a valid identifier, and is
<egg>
!u ʻ
<Qboid>
U+02BB MODIFIER LETTER TURNED COMMA (ʻ)
<egg>
whereas obviously ‘ isn't
<egg>
!u ‘
<Qboid>
U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK (‘)
<bofh>
Ugh. Are diacritics really *letters* if they don't denote a phoneme? (googling seems to say that U+02B9 is used in transcribing cyrillic ь mainly).
<egg>
the godbolt thing is the usual UTF-8 interpreted as ISO-8859-1 (not CP 1252).
<egg>
bofh: they're not punctuation (they don't separate words or do similar thing that punctuation does), they're not combining diacritics since they're spacing
<egg>
they're just letters in the same way that ь is a letter
<egg>
and ʻokina is clearly a letter
<egg>
bofh: similarly ʹ marks stress in IPA
<egg>
uh sorry, vertical line, not prime
<egg>
ˈ
<egg>
bofh: as in [kite]
<egg>
(or whatever it is you were saying :-p)
<egg>
um
<egg>
s/\[k/[ˈk/
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: bofh: as in [ˈkite]
<bofh>
okay, I suppose ь *is* a letter in cyrillic (had to actually look this up >_<) so point.
<egg>
bofh: I mean, what is this weird ideas that letters correspond to phonemes
<egg>
bofh: ь isn't weirder than french h
<egg>
french h, which *sometimes* indicates that you don't pronounce preceding default-silent consonants between vowels, except not always
<egg>
bofh: in "haricot" the h does something, which means that it's le haricot rather than **l'haricot, but in "hoplite" it doesn't even do that, it's l'hoplite rather than **le hoplite
<egg>
(yes I'm coopting the linguistic reconstruction ** to mark erroneous eggsamples)
<egg>
!pet bofh
* Qboid
pets bofh
<bofh>
!meow egg
* Qboid
meows at egg
<bofh>
oka6,
<egg>
окаб
<bofh>
okay, that explains a ton.
<bofh>
rofl
<egg>
what eggsplains a ton?
<bofh>
00:28:06 <@egg> french h, which *sometimes* indicates that you don't pronounce preceding default-silent consonants between vowels, except not always
<bofh>
but by this description I'm not sure if I'd consider french h a letter either.
<egg>
but what would it be then
<egg>
it's clearly part of the word, in the same way that combining diacritics are
<bofh>
(I mean it obviously is one since the Académie defines it as one, but ugh)
<egg>
the Académie is utterly irrelevant here
<egg>
it's part of the word, as in it's a misspelling not to have it
<bofh>
so to me anything that denotes secondary articulation or just *changes* how existing letters are interpreted is punctuation. punctuation doesn't mean it can't be essential to the spelling of the word.
<egg>
aaaaaaaaaa
<bofh>
...I guess we're working under different defintions of 'punctuation' here mentally and mine might not make any sense. >_>
<egg>
diacritics are not punctuation
<egg>
regardless of whether they're regarded as diacritics (french has 26 letters and accents) or separate letters (scandinavian languages), they're not the same kind of thing as a comma or colon or quotation marks
<egg>
they are in the category of things that are part of the word, not of things that are between the words
<bofh>
(for me a letter is anything that maps to its own phoneme in a language, anything else is punctuation, but I realize that probably isn't how linguists *actually* use those terms since I just mentally sampled 'Ll'/'Lm' and 'P*' and yeah those don't map at *all* to what I'm thinking of)
<bofh>
so punctuation isn't limited to things between words, is it?
<egg>
a letter is anything that maps to its own phoneme in a language << that's not how it works in any language you speak
<egg>
*pokes english with a stick*
<bofh>
yeah I just realized my definition doesn't match reality at all.
<bofh>
...which makes me wonder how the hell I had that definition in my mind in the first place, but <shrug>
<egg>
an other consideration is that this isn't about philosophical classification of what the platonician letter is in the cave, the general category is used for things
<egg>
word separation in spaced languages being one
<bofh>
(also I am *so* using 'окаб,' as a greeting)
<bofh>
okay :P
<egg>
"what is an identifier" being another
<egg>
and well, if hoplite isn't an identifier because the h is punctuation, I have question about how syntax works
<egg>
about ow syntax works
<bofh>
so I don't see why punctuation can't be part of an identifier.
<kmath>
<andrechemist> Just gave my name in Starbucks as "C4H5As" and the nomenclature-savvy barista called out "Pumpkin spice latte for… https://t.co/cv0RZTq1sa
<egg>
because usually you use it for syntax
<egg>
I mean, sure, you can have a language where f(a,b) is an identifier, but that's not exactly sane
<bofh>
only a small set of it, tho, generally? or have programming languages actually started using punctuation outside of the ascii range for distinct syntactic elements?
<bofh>
touché. :P
<egg>
*pokes swift and perl with a stick*
<egg>
but sure, a lot of languages have their syntax in ASCII, so they can be written ASCII-only; therein don't usually allow punctuation in identifiers
<egg>
(and then you have FORTRAN, which allows spaces, but it's maybe not a model for syntax)
<egg>
(also non-ASCII identifiers in FORTRAN might take a while)
<bofh>
(yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, and then wide support for them even longer >_>)
<bofh>
(also I don't think it's so much 'allows spaces' as 'their lexer completely ignores spaces', iirc)
<egg>
yeah
<egg>
but if you wanted to extend it, you would ignore the corresponding general category
<egg>
and then you would have to wonder whether you allow punctuation, because then identifiers are kinda legitimately multiword
<bofh>
okay, true.
<egg>
CALL the function, which, when given a real, returns an approximation of its cube root; whose rounding is faithful correct for five inputs per million (X)
<egg>
bofh: also, I want non-ASCII identifiers in fixed-form FORTRAN, for 72 * 21 bit punchcards
<bofh>
...do those exist?
<egg>
s/faithful.*five/faithful and correct for all but five/
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: CALL the function, which, when given a real, returns an approximation of its cube root; whose rounding is faithful and correct for all but five inputs per million (X)
<egg>
bofh: they should :-p
<bofh>
ROFL
<egg>
?
<bofh>
the function as described above,
<egg>
we need more functions whose names look like 19th century book titles
<kmath>
<andrechemist> Just gave my name in Starbucks as "C4H5As" and the nomenclature-savvy barista called out "Pumpkin spice latte for… https://t.co/cv0RZTq1sa
<kmath>
<heterocat> Life Pro Tip: hoard sealed copies of your transcripts if you are applying for academic jobs as it may turn out your… https://t.co/LeI9aPKVU9
<bofh>
(now I want to create a cuneiform version of my academic transcript b/c why not)
<egg>
bofh: at least you need a decent pen and ink to write it down on vellum
<bofh>
True, and there is a shortage of those here.
<bofh>
Still boggling over the fact that fountain pens are standard-issue there and not, like, cheapo ballpoints.
<egg>
whitequark: how is it in RU re. writing instruments
<UmbralRaptop>
Wait, what? The big ballpoint pen maker is a French company but they're not big in France?
<kmath>
<NASASpaceflight> If you want some context on how this leak is not a "serious issue"....the Russians are now saying "Hey, I know, let… https://t.co/EYO30MqTte
<UmbralRaptop>
egg|work|egg: some sort of debris induced leak
<kmath>
<ctrlcreep> It turns out depression is a potent hibernation mechanism, with applications in interstellar travel. Before voyages… https://t.co/2k7VA0fjl8
<egg|work|egg>
UmbralRaptop: did someone stab the station,
* UmbralRaptop
is on the ground, so that seems unlikely.
<UmbralRaptop>
probably a small chunk of debris
<UmbralRaptop>
paint? bolt? something
<egg|work|egg>
did tuco throw a bolt at the station,
<kmath>
<astronomolly> #IAU2018 resolution B4 on the renaming of the Hubble Law to the Hubble-Lemaître Law. Today's vote is a "straw poll"… https://t.co/lj50vsekCF
* UmbralRaptop
was going to poke egg, but apparently Lemaitre was Belgian?
<awang>
Wait, mandatory ballpoint pens?
<egg|work|egg>
no, mandatory fountain pens
* UmbralRaptop
depressurizes the pens.
<egg|work|egg>
egg: Numerical Methods for Differential Equations: A Computational Approach; 14.2 Transformation of the RK process
<egg|work|egg>
bofh: "All techniques covered in the text are on a program disk included with the book, and are written in Fortran 90."
<UmbralRaptop>
egg|work|egg: nice, but do they also include 50+ pages of FORTRAN in the text?
<kmath>
<✔sacbee_news> Bank of America freezing accounts of customers suspected of not being US citizens https://t.co/fR9D1qnURG
<bofh>
(note: at no point is US citizenship a necessity to open a US bank account!)
<UmbralRaptop>
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
<bofh>
Like, admittedly, it's BoA, I'm convinced them and HSBC are the Satans *of the banking world*, but still, jfc.
* UmbralRaptop
🔪 🔪🔪
<UmbralRaptop>
Unrelated, ever have a city bus get delayed by 30 minutes rabdonl
<UmbralRaptop>
(Note: It's 305 K out here)
<UmbralRaptop>
*randomly
<egg>
!wpn bofh
* Qboid
gives bofh a central Kozai fluxion
<egg>
!wpn UmbralRaptop
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptop a rock ε-δ pharmacology
<egg>
help i want to pet ANBOcat but i am not at ANBO
<UmbralRaptop>
!pet egg
<Qboid>
(1,2): error CS1660: Cannot convert `lambda expression' to non-delegate type `object'
<Qboid>
System.Func`1[System.String]
<Qboid>
(1,2): error CS0103: The name `bofhtime' does not exist in the current context
* Qboid
pets egg
<egg>
!csharp "b\u0304\u0302"
<Qboid>
b̄̂
<egg>
!csharp "b\u0304"
<Qboid>
b̄
<egg>
!csharp "a\u0304"
<Qboid>
ā
<bofh>
christ I am exhausted.
<bofh>
!wpn egg
* Qboid
gives egg a festive samarium cohomology
<bofh>
!wpn UmbralRaptop
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptop an identity noun demangler
<UmbralRaptop>
!coffee bofh
<bofh>
Already sipping some. :P
<egg>
!wpn bofh's coffee
* Qboid
gives bofh's coffee a Renesas shell
pthag has joined #kspacademia
<egg>
meow
<bofh>
!meow egg
* Qboid
meows at egg
<B787_300>
!stab
<B787_300>
UmbralRaptop: nothing like getting all ready to go out to observer then being told the rest of the group doesnt want to try
<UmbralRaptop>
B787_300: =(
<B787_300>
i mean the cloud cover is only supposed to be like 30%
<awang>
egg|work|egg: I'm half tempted to try to convince a grade schooler here to only use pens and see how much things break
<awang>
UmbralRaptop: pls no, this install looks onerous enough
<awang>
!wpn -add:adj leaky
<Qboid>
awang: Adjective already added!
<awang>
!wpn -add:wpn abstraction
<Qboid>
awang: Weapon already added!
<awang>
Finding the right abstraction is hard :(
<awang>
I'm looking at some code I wrote like two months ago and I'm eggstremely tempted to rewrite this garbage
<UmbralRaptop>
awang: Astronomy is silly.
<B787_300>
awang: oh if i have to use old core i nearly always rewrite it anyway... as when i wrote it only $higherpower and I knew what i wrote, and now only $higherpower knows
<egg>
awang: well from what bofh tells me it's hard to get fountain pens there to start with?
<egg>
!acr -add:MP Métro Pneu
<Qboid>
egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<egg>
!acr -add:MF Métro Fer
<Qboid>
egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
* UmbralRaptop
starts the local computer cluster crunching away at RVs.
* UmbralRaptop
hopes that no one needs nodes 7, 8, 11, or 12 before mid September.
<bofh>
++
<awang>
!u ·
<Qboid>
U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT (·)
<egg>
UmbralRaptop: nice
<awang>
!u »·
<Qboid>
U+00BB RIGHT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK (»)
<Qboid>
U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT (·)
<awang>
!u ↲
<Qboid>
U+21B2 DOWNWARDS ARROW WITH TIP LEFTWARDS (↲)
<awang>
!u
<Qboid>
U+0016 (␖)
<awang>
!u ␣
<Qboid>
U+2423 OPEN BOX (␣)
<UmbralRaptop>
egg: somewhat. I'm still frustrated at how little I've been able to speed up the RV calculations. And am probably still failing to properly exploit an embarrassingly parallelizable problem.
<egg>
UmbralRaptop: rephrase as principia feature request, ..., publication
<egg>
s/\.\.\./???/
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: UmbralRaptop: rephrase as principia feature request, ???, publication
<UmbralRaptop>
egg: ANBOL is open access, right?
<egg>
if it were a thing it would be, yes
<egg>
UmbralRaptop: although there is probably a submission fee in that you need to pet the cat,
pthag has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<UmbralRaptop>
Note to self: bring a kg of zyrtec
armed_troop has quit [Quit: Bye]
<UmbralRaptop>
(Sorry, ANBOcat, but my immune system is rather paranoid)
<bofh>
ANBOcat is seemingly not *hugely* allergenic, but bring cetirizine anyhow.
<egg>
B787_300: well, it's a chapter of a technical note really
<B787_300>
but i do have to wonder how much simpler would life and math be if we all just agreeded to use ONE freking reference frame for earth
<egg>
B787_300: it seems annoying to have maps based on a frame that rotates once a day with respect to the ground, or astrometry with respect to the surface
<B787_300>
or like the 4 used in spaceflight or orbital dynamics
<egg>
B787_300: there aren't that many frames for Earth, there's the ITRS for surface life and the GCRS for non-rotating/astrometric matters/orbital stuff, the TIRS and CIRS in the middle are just there for conversion
<egg>
s/frames/reference systems/
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: B787_300: there aren't that many reference systems for Earth, there's the ITRS for surface life and the GCRS for non-rotating/astrometric matters/orbital stuff, the TIRS and CIRS in the middle are just there for conversion
<egg>
then you have *realizations* of the reference system, but that's a different matter
<egg>
though mostly it's ITRFwhichever for the ITRS
<egg>
and for the ICRS you'll get the ICRF or the HCRF for optical work
<egg>
Gaia CRF hopefully eventually
<B787_300>
wasnt the first version of the Gaia catalog released recently?
<egg>
catalog != CRF
<B787_300>
i know
<B787_300>
but the catalog is the first step to the CRF
<egg>
yeah, it's making progress
<egg>
B787_300: spacecraft work is GCRS or BCRS, but then there is the added complication that instead of using the appropriate time coordinate (TCG vs. TCB) you have folks *cough cough JPL* who stick to TDB
<egg>
(and probably lots of people using TT for GCRS work, but that's less bad than TDB)
<egg>
TDB is really the "let's try to hide GR under a rock" timescale >_>
<B787_300>
oh hey ICRF3 is supposed to come out soon
<egg>
yeah I saw that
<egg>
B787_300: although IIRC the ICRFs are consistent within their errors, so it shouldn't matter much for practical purposes?
<egg>
B787_300: the IGN provides conversions between the ITRFs, because there it might matter
<egg>
s/purposes/porpoises/
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: B787_300: although IIRC the ICRFs are consistent within their errors, so it shouldn't matter much for practical porpoises?
<B787_300>
egg: i mean is it too much to ask for a simple answer to the question of "where am I?"
<egg>
B787_300: yes
<egg>
B787_300: also to the question "what time is it"
<B787_300>
and "where am i looking"
<B787_300>
(or alternatively "what is my attitude")
<egg>
(also "where are we eating")
<B787_300>
oh that last one is easy
<B787_300>
you say guess where we are going to dinner and drive to the first place mentioned
<B787_300>
or if you are me you eat alone and it becomes even more simple
<egg>
yes but how can you drive to that place without a map
<egg>
how can you have a map without a TRS
<egg>
worse, a TRS appropriate for the local area, see also the ETRS89 being in motion with respect to the ITRS
<B787_300>
how can you do photometry without callibration? you just do it relative to a known datum
<egg>
!wpn B787_300
* Qboid
gives B787_300 a computable nonpolar basket
<egg>
!wpn bofh
* Qboid
gives bofh a private vial
<egg>
!wpn UmbralRaptop
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptop a zeta homomorphism
<egg>
!wpn whitequark
* Qboid
gives whitequark a baka fusor
<B787_300>
!wpn egg
* Qboid
gives egg a Balmer anecdatum
<UmbralRaptop>
B787_300: Depends on how much precision you need?
<UmbralRaptop>
(Additional context required)
<B787_300>
UmbralRaptop: wrt to the photometry? i was using it as an example for why you dont need exquisite information for mapping
<kmath>
<eevee> lykois only have an overcoat, so when they shed, something something, i don't really understand how this works. an… https://t.co/P3AttkcpFl
<UmbralRaptop>
B787_300: incidentally, SDSS includes information about how their PSF changes over a given image frame.
<B787_300>
i mean isnt that the entire point of a spot diagram?