egg|nomz|egg changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> egg|nomz|egg: generally if your eyes are dewing over, that's not the weather. | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer.
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<egg>
bofh: UmbralRaptor: whitequark: okay so the most important discrepancy between the more-proper GRS80-based gravity disturbance and the thing I was doing of just ditching C20 and evaluating on the sphere is not evaluation on the sphere vs. the ellipsoid, it's the higher zonal harmonics C40, C60 of the ellipsoid
<egg>
the isopotential of C20 really isn't ellipsoidal
<kmath>
<eggleroy> "cancellation isnt real," i assure myself as i close my Белоусов and ram the degree 90 legendre polynomial with my… https://t.co/C3j5b9FBlB
<egg>
whitequark: but, e.g, in https://i.imgur.com/aTRW3Ph.png, the mid-atlantic ridge gets redder towards the pole, more than it should
<egg>
because I am using just the 2nd degree zonal harmonic as a reference gravitational potential from which I plot the disturbance, rather than a nice ellipsoid
<egg>
and it turns out that spherical harmonics aren't ellipsoids, they're weird crap
<egg>
(dominated by C20, but with a bit of C40 and C60 too; C80 becomes mostly negligible and then it's laughable)
<hillexed>
What's the C there stand for?
<bofh>
whitequark: wait, the higher *zonal* harmonics are the most important thing? what the shit
<egg>
hillexed: Cosine
<egg>
bofh: why the emphasis on zonal
<hillexed>
oh, thank you! I've never heard that used before.
<egg>
hillexed: spherical harmonics expansion
<egg>
hillexed: see e.g. IERS conventions (2010), section 6
<egg>
(I have reached the point where I quote the IERS conventions from memory, this is scary)
<hillexed>
I'll take a look. Thank you for explaining!
<Qboid>
[#1939] title: Velocity addition when transiting from space to atmosphere with RSS. | I am having the same issue as previously mentioned in #1366 when transitioning from space to earth in 1.3.1 RSS with the Descartes release. I reverted back to the Dadekind release and reentry was norm... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/1939
<egg>
hillexed: essentially you have a series of the form sum of the (Cnm cos mλ + Snm cos nλ) Pnm(sin φ), where Cnm and Snm are (real) coefficients
<egg>
and Pnm is an associated Legendre function with the appropriate sign convention and normalization
<egg>
bofh: why the emphasis on zonal
<egg>
bofh: an ellipsoid of revolution only has zonal degree 2n terms
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<egg|phone|egg>
!seen bofh
<Qboid>
egg|phone|egg: I last saw bofh on [30.09.2018 01:00:09] in #kspacademia saying: "whitequark: wait, the higher *zonal* harmonics are the most important thing? what the shit"
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<iximeow>
!seen Qboid
<Qboid>
iximeow: I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 01:45:08] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw bofh on [30.09.2018 01:00:09] in #kspacademia saying: "whitequark: wait, the higher *zonal* harmonics are the most important thing? what the shit""
<iximeow>
!seen Qboid
<Qboid>
iximeow: I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:18] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 01:45:08] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw bofh on [30.09.2018 01:00:09] in #kspacademia saying: "whitequark: wait, the higher *zonal* harmonics are the most important thing? what the shit"""
<iximeow>
!seen Qboid
<hillexed>
!seen Qboid
<Qboid>
iximeow: I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:28] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:18] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 01:45:08] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw bofh on [30.09.2018 01:00:09] in #kspacademia saying: "whitequark: wait, the higher *zonal* harmonics are the most important thing? what the shit""""
<Qboid>
hillexed: I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:36] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:28] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:18] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 01:45:08] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw bofh on [30.09.2018 01:00:09] in #kspacademia saying: "whitequark: wait, the higher *zonal*
<Qboid>
harmonics are the most important thing? what the shit"""""
<iximeow>
!seen Qboid
<Qboid>
iximeow: I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:42] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:36] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:28] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:18] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 01:45:08] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw bofh on [30.09.2018 0
<Qboid>
1:00:09] in #kspacademia saying: "whitequark: wait, the higher *zonal* harmonics are the most important thing? what the shit""""""
<iximeow>
now will it just be the last due to message wrap...
<iximeow>
oh!
<iximeow>
interesting
<hillexed>
!seen Qboid
<Qboid>
hillexed: I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:39:00] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:42] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:36] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:28] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018 02:38:18] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw Qboid on [30.09.2018
<Qboid>
01:45:08] in #kspacademia saying: "I last saw bofh on [30.09.2018 01:00:09] in #kspacademia saying: "whitequark: wait, the higher *zonal* harmonics are the most important thing? what the shit"""""""
<SnoopJeDi>
Qboid are you okay
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<egg|phone|egg>
Iximeow: there's #bottorture for that
<egg|phone|egg>
!seen bofh
<Qboid>
egg|phone|egg: I last saw bofh on [30.09.2018 01:00:09] in #kspacademia saying: "whitequark: wait, the higher *zonal* harmonics are the most important thing? what the shit"
<egg|phone|egg>
!wpn bofh
* Qboid
gives bofh an exploding purpose
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<egg>
!pet whitequark
* Qboid
pets whitequark
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* egg
meows at whitequark
<whitequark>
hi egg
<egg>
whitequark: has котенька tried to drink something odd since last time
<whitequark>
no i dont think so
<whitequark>
but she got real freaked out over roommate turning on loud music
<egg>
yeah, that makes sense
<egg>
ANBOcat used to be terrified of the piano
<egg>
hm, I wonder whether bofh is zzz
<egg>
alternatively, doing strange bofh things,
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<bofh>
egg: sec
<egg|phone|egg>
喵
<egg|phone|egg>
Bofh: so c20-only equipotential diverges from the ellipsoid by like 20 m
<bofh>
20m is an absurdly small value, to the point where I'd call C20 sufficient?
<egg|phone|egg>
The geoid diverges by maybe at most 100m
<egg|phone|egg>
So, not really
<egg|phone|egg>
Bofh: will make some plots in a bit
<bofh>
so like, 20m from the PoV of space orbits is pretty much noise for all but the most necessarily precise orbital insertions
<egg>
bofh: yes but I'm just talking about the geoid
<egg>
bofh: the geoid isn't directly relevant to the satellites, and geoid undulations don't directly map to satellite positions
<egg>
bofh: what I mean by those numbers is that the effect of the C40 term of the reference ellipsoid's gravitational field is comparable to the effect of non-C20 terms of the Earth's gravitational field
<egg>
bofh: which is only relevant if you are plotting/comparing things anyway, since the actual gravitational field isn't affected by the reference ellipsoid, that's just a normalization you use so that the plots aren't completely dominated by C20
<bofh>
I mean yes, my whole point is this is only really useful for geodetics, and once you get out of the trophosphere really, these distances become noise,
<bofh>
:p
<egg|zz|egg>
bofh: you're misunderstanding; those distances are not in any case relevant to satellite gravity fields, that's not the point. The point is that non-C20 terms of the gravity field *are* relevant to satellites, and that in order to visualize them, you need to normalize the oblateness out
<bofh>
I mean I'm not seeing it, if the equipotential diverges that little, the actual effects on the gravity field should be miniscule?
<egg|zz|egg>
and doing so by just subtracting C20, instead of the gravity of an ellipsoid, is strongly inconsistent with basic morality and geodetic conventions
<egg|zz|egg>
(with basic morality because the ellipsoid is better-behaved than the C20 equipotential, so you end up weirdly biasing the gravity disturbance)
<bofh>
I mean yeah, just subtracting C20 will result in a plot that's very confusing and looks worse than it actually is.
<egg>
bofh: terms beyond C20 matter, e.g., for LAGEOS-2, you get an error of 2° 41′ after two years if you only take C20 into account
<egg>
that's 570 km
<bofh>
egg: huh, that's actually a much bigger effect than I expected, wtf.
<egg>
where they differ ~centimetrically initially
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<bofh>
egg: okay, that's not that surprising I guess, two years is a lot of time to run a dynamical system for.
<bofh>
in that context 23m after 2 years isn't bad at all.
<egg>
bofh: well, 23 m is good, 570 km less so
<bofh>
yep. 570km is enough to accidentally cause an Iridium-33/Cosmos-2251 incident if you try to use that data instead of the data that corresponds to reality, :p
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<bofh>
egg: I mean δg_sa is the one I see used everywhere? prolly since it's easy as heck to compute
<egg>
bofh: dunno, where do you see geopotential functionals anyway
<egg>
bofh: I honestly have no idea how and how much you are familiar with thing, for all thing :-p
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<UmbralRaptor>
egg: have you run into orbital elements of the form "period, time of periapsis, eccentricity, ω, and semi-amplitude" before?
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: semi-amplitude? Ꙩ_ꙩ what's that
<UmbralRaptor>
egg: measurement of radial velocity variation of a star.
<egg>
aaaaaaaaaaaA
<UmbralRaptor>
Weird units because it's relatively easy to measure.
* UmbralRaptor
points to galaxy distances in units of redshift.
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: and what are the units of semi-amplitude
* egg
meows at bofh
* egg
meows at UmbralRaptor
<BPlayer>
Semi-meters?
* egg
meows at whitequark
<UmbralRaptor>
egg: m/s
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: okay that's surprisingly sane
<BPlayer>
Wait, not m/s^2?
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: are you sure you don't prefer cm/julian year,
<BPlayer>
It's a variation of the radial velocity?
<UmbralRaptor>
BPlayer: more of a Δv than a ∂v
<BPlayer>
I think I understand.
* egg
meows at bofh
<BPlayer>
Δv over the course of a whole cycle (the cycle being a semi-orbit or something)?
<UmbralRaptor>
BPlayer: simple version with a planet in a circular orbit: you get a sine I'd you plot RV vs time.
<UmbralRaptor>
The amplitude is the peak-trough height
<BPlayer>
How does a circular orbit have RV, though? Is that relative to a stationary observer?
<UmbralRaptor>
yeah.
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<BPlayer>
And semi-amplitude is what we see from the Earth in a mostly circular orbit around the sun?
<UmbralRaptor>
If we're aliens observing the sun from elsewhere, yes.
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: we are, right?
<BPlayer>
Humm
<UmbralRaptor>
<_<
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<egg>
UmbralRaptor: hm, you can't have an animated gif and a png on the same tweet?
<UmbralRaptor>
Twitter being silly?
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<egg>
UmbralRaptor: is adsabs down?
<egg>
nevermind, just slow
<bofh>
UmbralRaptor: SEMI-AMPLITUDE?
<bofh>
...actually for a star that makes perfect sense, nevermind.
<egg>
bofh: so where did you learn about geodesy,
* UmbralRaptor
pokes stars in the spectra.
<bofh>
egg: so I spent like 8 months in 2015 doing AIS ship path plotting and data collection and extrapolation from rtl-sdrs. so much more bathymetric data than geodetic data, but yeah.
<egg>
Ꙩ_ꙩ
<bofh>
also that eggsperience taught me way more about NMEA0183 than anyone ever should know.
<bofh>
(gps uses a *tiny* subset of it for its default protocol, AIS uses a bunch more. Echo sounders use a specialized part of it that's only *partly* in the spec, well, either that or the part that isn't is proprietary and all the major companies making echo sounders use the same proprietary extensions, <shrug>)
<egg>
bofh: what about глонасс
<whitequark>
its really weird uncapitalized
<whitequark>
like гладос
<bofh>
egg: I have absolutely no idea what over-the-wire native ГЛОНАСС receivers use, but I'm pretty sure any US-made/China-made-for-US-market ones prolly shove their messages into weird nonconformant NMEA0183 messages anyhow
<bofh>
and I'm not certain I care enough to try to find out, tbh.
<egg>
whitequark: at least it's not italicized,
<egg>
whitequark: okay admittedly глонасс doesn't have any letters that get weird when italicized
<kmath>
<eggleroy> Gravity disturbance¹ of the Combined Gravity Model GGM05C² to degree and order 𝑁 with respect to GRS80, on the GRS8… https://t.co/GXmLnlboiK
<kmath>
<eggleroy> Same on the moon, for GL1500E³ with respect to the central potential, on the sphere of radius 1738 km. ⏎ ― ⏎ ³… https://t.co/H7zJ7nc7cH
* egg
blames sigfig
<UmbralRaptor>
Huh, lunar anomalies are larger in absolute magnitude than terran one.
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: yup
<bofh>
I mean the lunar anomalies are like, actually dramatic enough to matter
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: well, disturbances, but holds for anomalies too
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<egg>
!wpn hillexed
* Qboid
gives hillexed an accidentally quadratic laser
<UmbralRaptor>
The fact that there are places in Russia named "dead mountain" and "evil mountain" (the latter possibly being equivalent to Cheyenne Mountain) feels a little on the nose.
<kmath>
<alisonborealis> It's a really good thing bears can't read. ⏎ https://t.co/z9q0PN33Lu
<bofh>
I mean okay, based on the complexity of some of the trash cans bears have gotten in, it wouldn't surprise me if a small subset of bears *is* literate,
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<egg>
bofh: okay so our LAGEOS test seems to be converging to a fixed but nonzero error as we add harmonics
<bofh>
okay that is... strange.
<bofh>
I wonder what the remaining component of the error is.
<egg>
bofh: about 2 km
<bofh>
rofl.
<egg>
bofh: probably that I assume that the ITRS is rotating at a constant rate with its axis bolted into the ICRS,
<egg>
that's a shitty ITRS to ICRS conversion, which I suppose might screw things up over 2 years
<bofh>
I mean 2km error is "that might as well be eggsact", honestly,
<bofh>
esp. over a 2 year period.
<egg>
bofh: otoh we can't afford to do the correct ITRS to ICRS conversion when we actually compute the gravitational acceleration. but hopefully it shouldn't matter when actually applying the acceleration, and it's just the initial condition that needs to be correct?
<egg>
you can say TIRS = ITRS, but not so much CIRS = GCRS, or ERA = affine function of TT
<bofh>
2.8 arcminutes over 20 years is less error than I thought *possible* at simple double or double-double precision (like... 20 years in a dynamical system is a *lot* of time for miniscule errors to add up).
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: there isn't really anything equivalent, because grammatical gender is not just pronouns, English is odd in that it has lost that everywhere else
<UmbralRaptor>
Hrm
<UmbralRaptor>
Inevitable reference frame question: how large are the GR errors?
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: see also the gender of planets and moons and snails and slugs
<bofh>
egg: it's actually bloody weird in that grammatical gender follows literally no coherence and convention
<egg>
bofh: well, meaningful hysterical raisins,
<egg>
(in many cases lost because when you get to the reconstructed linguistics you're not going to get much)
<egg>
bofh: but plenty of obvious patterns like "the T called x" ends up being "x but with the gender of T"
<egg>
bofh: see e.g. Jupiter in the feminine, or rivers whose name is an otherwise masculine noun, etc.
<egg>
bofh: and then you have the really weird shit, like the nouns whose gender change with number
<bofh>
UmbralRaptor: so fun fact, if I don't consider the GR effect from the sun (well, sun-earth system, but the sun dominates the mass) on the doppler shift of Voyager 1, that gives me an error of like 25Hz (the correction term is trivial, -GM/(r*c^2), which is a lot easier to compute than the p*V/c term that dominates)
<bofh>
it's fairly insignificant but still amusing I can notice it even at ~8.4GHz frequencies
<bofh>
egg: I mean none of it makes any sense and really I don't know why it's even called "grammatical gender" other than it coinciding with the third-person pronoun genders.
<bofh>
UmbralRaptor: I mean the p*V/c (* being scalar product, p being the S/C motion vector and V being the barycenter motion vector) obviously dominates with a shift of like 1.5MHz
<egg>
bofh: well, because it coincide with gender when it comes to persons (the fact that this maps to pronouns is just a consequence of grammar, and pronouns don't necessarily refer to grammar; the en thing of having animate-only pronouns that map to genders is very en-specific)
<bofh>
this is particularly funny to me b/c someone once asked me in undergrad why RF, quote, "doesn't get noticeable doppler effect", then "answered" it for himself by saying that "oh of course, radio is E&M so it doesn't get doppler" and walking off before I could say anything.
<bofh>
egg: well what do you mean by persons outside of pronouns then? first names?
<egg>
German has a neuter, but plenty of things that aren't people are feminine or singular
<egg>
bofh: persons as in human beings, pronouns "il, elle" etc. can refer to things that are not people
<bofh>
I mean isn't German neuter a simplification of the one in Old High Germanic?
<egg>
e.g. slugs are feminine, so you use the pronoun "she" to refer to a slug,
<egg>
bofh: what I mean is that in "other than it coinciding with the third-person pronoun genders", it's not like pronouns are different
<egg>
they just get grammared like adjectives etc. do
<egg>
somehow in English only actual people get gender, and the gender affects only pronouns, but this is a very degenerate case
<egg>
(okay, ships, too)
<egg>
ships are people,
<UmbralRaptor>
neuter being a highly degenerate eigenstate, compared to masculine and feminine?
<bofh>
egg: what I mean is that were it not for the gender the pronoun refers to coinciding with the grammatical gender, would there be any reason to call them masculine, feminine and neuter and not say, charm, strange and camembert?
<egg>
bofh: not really, but again, "the gender the pronoun refers tothe gender the pronoun refers to" is a very weird phrasing
<egg>
(aside from the double-paste,)
<bofh>
like basically what I'm saying is grammatical gender has essentially nothing to do with *gender*, it's just a weird binning system
<egg>
yeah
<egg>
but there's nothing special about pronouns compared to e.g. articles or whatever
<bofh>
that classifies nouns into 2-3 bins essentially randomly
<egg>
pretty much
<bofh>
yes but it's like the only connection I can think of between grammatical gender and gender as it applies to people
<bofh>
since otherwise, yeah.
<egg>
well, in English grammar, it's the only connection because it's the only manifestation
<egg>
in romance languages, you have a grammatical gender, and it's *you* who have the gender, not the pronoun (the pronoun that refers to you has your gender)
<egg>
much like the slug has the feminine gender
<egg>
it's a property of the noun for nouns, and a property of the name for names
<bofh>
I mean sure, this is more me thinking that pronouns are more fundamental than names for gender, but I think a lot of that is b/c I think of a name as an arbitrary tag attached to an entity and nothing else.
<egg>
bofh: the pronoun being fundamental only makes sense in English where it is where it appears, in French you can make something's gender appear without using pronouns
<egg>
and same in a bunch of indo-european languages really
<egg>
bofh: if I say "the cooked slug", the form of "cooked" will reflect the gender of slug
<egg>
bofh: same if s/slug/bofh/g
<egg>
(please do not cook bofh,)
<bofh>
egg: I mean okay, I see what you mean. But it will reflect the *grammatical* gender of the word 'slug' and not the actual gender of the literal slug being cooked, is my entire point, :p
<egg>
yes
<bofh>
like basically I'm trying to figure out why in the hell this binning system is called "gender" instead of, like, "florpiness" or w/e.
<egg>
because it tends to coincide with the thing called gender in a non-grammatical sense in english when the noun is actually a name of a person
<egg>
bofh: though if you want to know why it is called "gender" as in the actual word, that's backwards
<egg>
bofh: gender comes from genre which comes from genus
<egg>
it's literally just "category"
<egg>
it so happens that the grammatical category coincides with that, and that gets named after the grammatical category in turn
<bofh>
I mean okay, so that explains one question but now makes me wonder why the hell "gender" semantic-drifted to where it currently is, at least in English.
<egg>
bofh: I'd assume because England and therefore we can't possibly use the word "sex"? :-p
<egg>
bofh: seems it appears in that sense in the 15th century
<bofh>
egg: rofl.
<egg>
bofh: more likely, there's the fact that English lost gender in all but the places where it coincides with people
<egg>
(and ships,)
<egg>
bofh: which means that there suddenly *was* semantic overlap, and thus the words were interchangeable
<egg>
bofh: also in the usual english habit of borrowing words multiple time for good measure, English also has genre and genus
<egg>
grammatical genus, or, how many grammatical hole does the noun have,
<egg>
s/hole/holes/
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: grammatical genus, or, how many grammatical holes does the noun have,
<bofh>
rofl
<bofh>
a genus 4 hypernoun,
<egg>
bofh: all three of gender, genre, and genus, and yet not a single word to unambiguously refer to the grammatical categorization without having to say "grammatical"
<egg>
grammatical genre
<UmbralRaptor>
gramre
<bofh>
rofl
<egg>
cup: noun, feminine, tragicomedy, genus 1
<SilverFox>
why is a cup feminine?
<SilverFox>
why do words need to be gendered?
<egg>
they don't need to be, they are, that's how a bunch of indo-european languages are
<egg>
they're also usually numbered, i.e. change form in the plural (e.g. in many cases with an s in english)
<egg>
there are languages where neither is a thing, but indo-european languages do that (also a lot of them do declension for added fun)
<egg>
bofh: btw you may have heard me refer to ANBOcat as "he" even though it's a female, that's because the default word for cat in fr is tends to be the masculine (whereas it's the feminine кошка in ru, or Katze in de)
<bofh>
egg: huh, are there languages that do not distinguish number at all?
<egg>
bofh: sure, *gestures in the direction of Asia*
<egg>
bofh: compare, in decreasing order of madness,
<bofh>
yeah, you have singular, nominative plural, genitive plural and vestiges of the dual and they combine fairly sensibly (like, there's only 16 rules listed there for ranges...)
<bofh>
that is really not bad at all.
<egg>
bofh: yeah, I mean, CLDR only has 6 plural keywords, so there is boundedness to the madness
<egg>
bofh: but the ru rules are still very much nontrivial compared to say en
<bofh>
egg: like, the extra complexity is tiny, I maintain,
<egg>
bofh: oh absolutely
<egg>
(at least when you have ICU to deal with it)
<bofh>
(mostly b/c I tried to once codify the rules for vowel reduction of [о] in Moscow dialect and, like, you want madness? yeah. I think I came up with 27 rules and it reduced to like 5 different things, some of them only in -oCo- clusters).
<egg>
bofh: but anyway, the zh or vi (cardinal) lack of rules are rather simpler
<egg>
bofh: if you have a cat and a cat you just say two cat, what is this weird idea of deforming words depending on how many they are or whether they refer to a sluglike or snaillike noun or what their grammatical function is :-p
<bofh>
I mean point,
<egg>
bofh: then again this is quite nice for disambiguation
<egg>
you can use pronouns to backreference things quite a bit
<bofh>
yep, tho after awhile antecedents become ""fun"", tho English seems notably bad at this compared to most other langs.
<egg>
bofh: that's actually a mess when translating from de to en, the former has three genders and the latter none (assuming no people involved), so all pronouns become "it" or "they" which can make sentence very ambiguous
<egg>
bofh: so the same sentence that's obvious because "she" refers to the cat, "he" to the chair, and "it" to the book suddenly becomes incomprehensible
<bofh>
egg: I mean if we want to go that route English lacking noun cases is much worse when doing translation imho.