Thomas changed the topic of #kspmodding to: Welcome to #kspmodding - the channel for discussing, and learning about, modding Kerbal Space Program. Code of Conduct: https://git.io/vSQh6 | Always provide logs (do !support for help). | *** PSA: https://kerbalspaceprogram.com/api/index.html | <Red5> Guy was asked for a log file, he gave this link: http://pastebin.com/wfVarZPf
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<kmath>
YouTube - The Floppotron: The Final Countdown
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<taniwha>
what do people consider to be reasonable entry costs for parts?
<Virindi>
depends on the part?
<aeTIos_web>
I wonder if it is possible to make a ground-part that is always vertical
<aeTIos_web>
that would be really handy for base building
<aeTIos_web>
erm
<aeTIos_web>
vertical, horizontal, you catch my drift
<Virindi>
recently I played on "hard" mode and I ended up buying almost no parts, because I never had any money, because I was just doing grind missions for days of play just to upgrade facilities...and that was with all craft fully recovered
<Virindi>
if it is intended to force the player to play with a limited set of parts, then part costs should probably be even higher
<Virindi>
buying parts wasn't a huge problem, but I just needed to save every bit
<Virindi>
honestly though I found getting money itself to be way too grindy, so rather than it being a cost problem it was a method of getting money problem
<Virindi>
ending up doing the same tourist contract 50 times because nothing else is lucrative enough to justify how long it takes to play the mission, is a killer
<Virindi>
that was only the second time I had played career mode (I also played through science mode once when it came out) and I am not sure if I can stand it again, it was pure grind and then as soon as I unlocked the science lab I went to minmus and instantly maxed out thousands of science points by timewarping.....if I played again, I would have to remove all science labs from the game because it totally ruined the entire game
<aeTIos_web>
I have been whining about this for too long; there should be more interesting things to do and there should be automation as you scale up your space program
<Virindi>
actually here's a serious question based on that experience: why the hell does the game balance treat minmus as harder than mun. the contracts want you to go to mun first, minmus has higher rewards, etc. but in reality mun is WAYYYYYYY harder than minmus, it makes no sense
<Virindi>
to be fair I was playing with a self-imposed "ssto only, 100% landed recovery" rule but still, flying around minmus you can hit every biome with very little deltav
<Virindi>
and landing is much easier
<aeTIos_web>
The game's very much about the 'getting there' part, not about the 'okay, we got there, now what' part
<aeTIos_web>
imho
<aeTIos_web>
that part needs a lot more love
<Virindi>
sure, and the only thing mods tend to offer you for building mod colonies and stuff is....more science. which you don't need now because you maxed everything
<aeTIos_web>
yes
<Virindi>
mods should reward you with boatloads of money for making a colony instead
<aeTIos_web>
I wonder how hard it is to make a supply line mod
<Virindi>
it has been done?
<Virindi>
more than once I believe
<aeTIos_web>
o really?
<Virindi>
there is one where you fly a ship somewhere once, then there is a special part which pretends like you flew that ship there again
<aeTIos_web>
it looked like shit, something with the colors
<aeTIos_web>
i used gray on the textures, but it had an ugly green shade on it in game
<taniwha>
Virindi: doesn't building everything offworld count as more money? :)
<taniwha>
(ok, the engineers to do the building get expensive /fast/)
<taniwha>
(but... rescue contracts!)
<taniwha>
that's a set of rather unorthodox truss and container parts
<aeTIos_web>
taniwha: my experience is that there is not enough incentivisation in career at all
<taniwha>
yeah
<aeTIos_web>
contracts are unpersonal and unchallenging and everything feels like a grind to me
<Virindi>
taniwha: to answer your original question, trusses should be very low cost. Because they are primarily aesthetic...it would be silly to force the user to just chain together a million cubic octagonal struts to save on entry costs when it isn't giving much extra game benefit other than structure
<taniwha>
Virindi: yeah
<aeTIos_web>
trusses are literally steel
<aeTIos_web>
in this game at least
<taniwha>
for the trusses, the most expensive part (the octahub) is 87.78
<aeTIos_web>
hmmmm... I wonder what would be the best way to improve career, except adding interesting things to do on other planets
<aeTIos_web>
I'm excited for the making history pack
<taniwha>
976.512 for the tank, but it holds 1388u of ScrapMetal
<aeTIos_web>
the missions are a great idea
<Virindi>
there are some structural parts that are just silly, like that rockomax 6x circular coupler......it is WAY too heavy
<aeTIos_web>
I never use that
<taniwha>
(so most of that cost is the scrap metal)
<Virindi>
it is insane weight
<aeTIos_web>
I just pop docking ports on the side of my modules
<Virindi>
same with the steel I-beams
<taniwha>
these were designed for stations and the like
<taniwha>
and their masses are carefully calculated (measure the volume in blender, multiply by 7.8)
<taniwha>
cost is a function of mass
<Virindi>
no structural part should be significantly heavier than just building the same shape with cubic octagonal struts, yet a lot of them are like 50x that weight
<aeTIos_web>
haha
<Virindi>
I am not talking about realism
<aeTIos_web>
this is why I mainly play sandbox tbh
<Virindi>
I am talking about game balance, it essentially means that you have to pay more to have a nice looking ship
<aeTIos_web>
tweakscale + EE
<aeTIos_web>
bam
<taniwha>
tweakscale was horrid when I last looked at it
<aeTIos_web>
it works great for me
<Virindi>
realistic structure, is not conducive to fun gameplay :)
<aeTIos_web>
check the latest version I suppose
<taniwha>
NREs all over the place, does the scaling in Update
<taniwha>
Virindi: bah
<aeTIos_web>
I made a 50x60x90 cm rover with it
<aeTIos_web>
it actually fits on a 1.25 meter rocket like a normal payload would
<Virindi>
how long ago? like before 1.0 or whatever? it used to be that it glitched to hell all the time, like halfway back in the day when I built with a lot of kw parts and tweakscale, often on vessel load the vessel would spontaneously explode if it had tweaked parts
<aeTIos_web>
not sure if it works without tweakscale
<aeTIos_web>
probably not
<Virindi>
seems like building would be difficult to get things lined up as soon as you try to surface attach something to something on one of the non-orthogonal nodes
<Virindi>
wow what is that, landscape textures 1 pixel per mile? :(
<aeTIos_web>
Virindi: it's the hig res texture pack even .-.
<aeTIos_web>
tbh I might remove the city textures
<aeTIos_web>
they look bad
<taniwha>
Virindi: all node attach :)
<taniwha>
(ie, 8 nodes on the octahedrons)
<Virindi>
I mean like greebles or whatever
<aeTIos_web>
coming back to the generating money part, I think that end game should have a much bigger scope than launching single rockets
<aeTIos_web>
Like just sit back and watch your space empire do its thing
<aeTIos_web>
a la roller coaster
<Virindi>
automated rockets is kinda automating the thing that is supposed to be the main fun of the game.
<aeTIos_web>
Yes, and no. In its current state it is indeed a build-your-rocket and fly simulator. However when you add a rule where you can only automate a flight once you fly that mission yourself you just take away the grind
<Virindi>
if you want to write a whole new civilization style game on top of ksp good luck, but where ksp shines is in being a plane/spaceship flight simulator
<Virindi>
the proper way to make a game more fun when it is grindy, is to focus on the things that are already fun about the game, and reward the player better for them.
<aeTIos_web>
well, it doesn't have to be civ-style of course because that would be way too huge but a good start would be background processing
<Virindi>
it's a bit like a business focusing on its "core competencies", a game should first aim to focus on the elements of it which are the most fun...once that is not grindy, new areas can be expanded to.
<aeTIos_web>
truth
<Virindi>
in that vein I always thought squad's focus on career mode was a huge mistake...but it could get there someday. it is not really there yet
<aeTIos_web>
yeah, that's what I thought too, the career presents itself as a tycoon game
<aeTIos_web>
but it really lacks in scope
<Virindi>
if they added high quality weather, wind effects, etc and more airfields to the game....wow I would be tripping over myself trying to run to my credit card
<aeTIos_web>
uwu pls squad
<aeTIos_web>
to be honest, the mission builder seems like a great idea
<aeTIos_web>
rewarding player actions with score and adding some competition
<aeTIos_web>
competition justifies grind
<Virindi>
mehhh
<Virindi>
mehhhh
<aeTIos_web>
..to a certain extent?
<Virindi>
everyone I know hops from game to game, playing out these games with "achievements" and a storyline then throwing them away...I hate achievements. I want an open world to explore. That's exactly why I was so enthusiastic about ksp
<Virindi>
I am not interested in another tick the box add up points game
<aeTIos_web>
I agree in part but I also find myself coming back to games like that because I love increasing my scores
<taniwha>
Virindi: yeah, greebles will be pa problem on the octahedrons
<taniwha>
not so bad on the tetrahedrons
<Virindi>
in the last 10 years I think I have bought two computer games: ksp, and minecraft. both because they are open, explore, build what you want. and no points or list of achievements "gotta catch em all" crap
<taniwha>
however, I plan on doing some more orthogonal hubs, too
<aeTIos_web>
Virindi: I mainly bought KSP because of the premise of a 'spaceflight sim meets tycoon style' game. The spaceflight sim is there, mostly - now comes the other part. And I agree that a lot more exploration options would really really be great
<aeTIos_web>
and I love designing and building rockets because fug yea rockets
<taniwha>
I've been into space since I was 4 or 5 (watching Space 1999)
<Virindi>
one of my friends told me to try the ksp demo, that was like, before they added mun to the demo, I tried it and was like I must have this game, I can just build random stuff for no reason
<taniwha>
I taught myself orbital mechanics when I was 15 because of Traveler
<Virindi>
then I learned that the game ran on linux and I would have bought 10 copies
<taniwha>
sort of fell by the wayside for several years, then got disappointed with the SLS launch in Space Brothers, went hunting S5 launches on youtube and found Reusable Space Program
<aeTIos_web>
haha, I find building truly random stuff really boring because I try to have a purpose in my stuff
<taniwha>
then a friend told me the linux version of KSP had just been released
<Virindi>
yeah linux was a huge selling point :)
<aeTIos_web>
I think I stumbled upon ksp on a list with space games
<aeTIos_web>
it was like 'yeah theres this upcoming game check out the demo'
<Virindi>
I also played minecraft on linux...
<aeTIos_web>
a few weeks later I bought it
<taniwha>
minecraft doesn't particularly interest me
<aeTIos_web>
that was like, feb 12
<taniwha>
heh, every time I look at the JAXA shot of Earth from low moon orbit, I think "that does not look right... oh, it's Earth, not Kerbin"
<Virindi>
minecraft might surprise you, if you don't, uh, try to play commercialized minecraft...and instead play modded minecraft on a private server with friends
<taniwha>
(I have it as one of my wallpapers)
<aeTIos_web>
oh yeah I'm gonna play KSP via DMP with friends
<aeTIos_web>
we've been setting up a modlist
<Virindi>
you can go to space in modded minecraft, obviously some ksp fans there, in one mod I think they even called it "mun"
<Virindi>
I tried that aetios
<Virindi>
it was fail
<Virindi>
very sad.
<aeTIos_web>
We're gonna see
<Virindi>
it was too glitchy to be fun
<aeTIos_web>
multiplayer is also somewhere on the list for squad iirc
<Virindi>
yeah I'd pay for that but it would be a whole new thing, a lot of work for everyone
<aeTIos_web>
hmm dmp got the mechanics pretty much right
<aeTIos_web>
it's just that the implementation is hard because not native
<Virindi>
more like when you are dealing with a bunch of complex rigid body interactions, playing things back after learning of new inputs is a "hard problem"
<Virindi>
that's the core issue.
<aeTIos_web>
yeah
<taniwha>
after my experience with quakeworld, I very much have my doubts about multi-player KSP ever being more than a semi-obscure mod
<Virindi>
I have worked a lot on multiplayer game systems, including physics, and making a smooth experience is all about being able to "roll back" your prediction
<Virindi>
in a way that isn't jarring, which is tough.
<taniwha>
doing it well would take far too much bandwidth
<taniwha>
and/or far to much reliance on determinism
<Virindi>
the bigger your packet, the more latency, the longer a timescale you must roll back.
<taniwha>
er, far too much
<Virindi>
it would have to be a lot smaller packets than the dmp strategy
<Virindi>
certain things, like explosions or collisions, would have to be server side
<Virindi>
you can't show an explosion then be like NOPE NEVERMIND
<aeTIos_web>
haha
<aeTIos_web>
dedicated servers will be hard indeed
<aeTIos_web>
the best CPUs already struggle with simulating a single craft if it's big enough
<Virindi>
in previous life what we would do is, separate the player actions into two distinct categories: movement, and everything else
<Virindi>
movement is predicted
<Virindi>
everything else waits for the server
<Virindi>
movement can be easily interpolated between current prediction and newly arrived checkpoint data
<Virindi>
without a dedicated server to handle physics, dmp is doomed to glitchtown
<aeTIos_web>
I'm gonna try anyway
<Virindi>
a better approach for a mod would be to have one copy of the game which was designated as the master, and its physics was god
<Virindi>
old games worked like that back in the day
<Virindi>
the master, of course, would have to have everything loaded and deal with everything
<Virindi>
or split up that responsibility dynamically, but either way all player actions would have to be verified by the current master
<aeTIos_web>
either way multiplayer is a complicated beast
<Virindi>
dmp "kinda" does that but it is more of a conflict resolution mechanism than anything else
<Virindi>
so prepare for glitching, prepare for hours of reverting because something randomly exploded
<aeTIos_web>
I still hope that KSP will get it some time because damn, that would be really cool
<Virindi>
half of your time will be spent dealing with glitches
<taniwha>
TAPE and Beardy Penguin have a pretty good system going (turn based, just swapping the save file), but even that is glitchy
<Virindi>
oh, that's what that series is, interesting
<taniwha>
Virindi: surface attach is fine on the tetrahedrons
<Virindi>
yeah but what if you want to line up with the main ship :P
<taniwha>
ah, and 3x is ok on the octahedrons
<taniwha>
as expected, 6x is wonky on the octahedrons
<taniwha>
these particular parts are about doing designs differently
* Virindi
goes back to yesterday's can't-do-anything issue
<taniwha>
?
<aeTIos_web>
me irl
<aeTIos_web>
customer's calling me with a fun issue, iphone's not liking an access point
<Virindi>
I have a .mu file, it is in the same directory as a cfg file with a prop, but the prop doesn't appear...I am probably doing something wrong with the model but I can't figure out what
<taniwha>
ah, that
<Virindi>
oh jesus
<Virindi>
see, I knew I should have slept on it
<taniwha>
it's a KSP wonkiness
<Virindi>
oh nm
<Virindi>
I thought I had mismatched a {
<taniwha>
KSP actually ignores the mesh = line
<taniwha>
if you want multiple .mu files in the same directory, you have to use MODEL{} nodes
<Virindi>
I am just trying to get the simplest thing working, one model that I imported from someone else's mod, made a simple edit, then exported, and a trivial cfg
<taniwha>
well, first thing's first, check KSP.log
<Virindi>
yeah I was trying to track down what it was saying yesterday
<Virindi>
problem is, if I load it in unity it also doesn't show up.
<taniwha>
ah
<taniwha>
imported and exported to/from blender using my addon?
<Virindi>
yes
<taniwha>
#1 rule for export: make sure the root game object is selected
<Virindi>
I did it before, it worked, then I edited one piece and then it didn't
<taniwha>
(I make that mistake quite often myself)
<Virindi>
yes I have been doing that :)
<taniwha>
you didn't break the hierarchy, did you?
<Virindi>
the first thing I noticed was that when I didn't have anything selected the export option didn't appear, that made it pretty obvious that it was operating on the selection
<Virindi>
no idea, I deleted one, uh, subelement mesh? then added a new mesh just by clicking new plane
<Virindi>
I tried to apply an identical material to it to something else
<Virindi>
including the properties under the ksp shader
<taniwha>
ok, you need to make it a child of the root game object
<Virindi>
it is.
<Virindi>
but somehow now the whole thing, including the part I didn't edit, does not appear
<Virindi>
and yes I am exporting based on the whole tree
<Virindi>
blender selection is really wonky, I will try again
<taniwha>
DGC-OctaHub or DGC-TetraHub
<taniwha>
(the secondary mesh objects of the same name that don't have a parent are my texture-bake sources)
<Virindi>
hmm I guess I didn't actually have the whole thing selected, I really tried to select the whole thing
<taniwha>
no, select just the root object
<Virindi>
yes that's what I mean.
<Virindi>
sorry
<taniwha>
ah
<taniwha>
btw, I've got a little script (that I might make part of the addon) that runs through the scene looking for empties with children
<Virindi>
now the plane that I added, is appearing offset from where I placed it in blender
<taniwha>
any it find, it then exports, naming the .mu file based on the empty's name
<Virindi>
I am trying to make a rpm mfd, heh
<taniwha>
/and/... it looks for name.cfg.in, and if it finds it, reads it in, adds node entries if there are node empties in the heirarchy, and writes out name.cfg :)
<Virindi>
any idea why a submesh would appear in a different location in unity than it does in blender?
<taniwha>
I've got all 8 parts in the one blend file. I just hit alt-p over the text editor and they all export :)
<Virindi>
relative to the main stuff
<taniwha>
yup
<taniwha>
parenting
<taniwha>
you need to alt-p, clear parent inverse in blender
<Virindi>
in blender, I have it in the tree under the main root...
<taniwha>
(and then probably fix the orientation and position of the sub-mesh)
<Virindi>
it did not move in blender when I did that.
<taniwha>
the problem is blender does transform hacks to make the position of the child object look like global coords
<Virindi>
oh crap
<Virindi>
selection difficulty again.
<taniwha>
unity wants true-local
<Virindi>
it is REALLY difficult to tell what you have selected in blender.
<egg|zzz|egg>
Sarbian: they're going to have fun though, because unless you use the exact same ephemerides we use the Jool system will diverge from ours because chaos :D
<Virindi>
when I select the plane that is supposed to be my screen, it is 1 face, 2 triangles. but I selected the screen on a different model and it has TWO faces for two triangles.
<taniwha>
Virindi: oooh.... make sure the normals are in the right direction :)
<Virindi>
I mean I made sure the normal was facing the user
<taniwha>
(you need only the one face)
<taniwha>
hmm
<Virindi>
yes that was my first thought, I figured hey, I'm obviously getting killed by backface culling
<Virindi>
so I searched how to know what direction the normals are, heh
<taniwha>
nice little button in the N-panel :)
<Virindi>
I don't know what the n-panel is, it actually took me quite awhile to find out how to find the "mesh display" which everyone was talking about
<Virindi>
I googled displaying normals and they were like it's right there in mesh display! but I didn't have that panel open
<taniwha>
the panel in the 3d view that toggles when you hit the N-key
<Virindi>
ah, yeah
<Virindi>
I'm not really a hotkey person. I'm a menu person. And blender has no menus......
<Virindi>
kills me.
<taniwha>
blender was designed by and for power-users
<Virindi>
I have been using vim for years and I still only know three hotkeys for it, heh
<taniwha>
it started as an in-house tool
<taniwha>
heh
<Virindi>
I disagree on your definition of power user.
<aeTIos_web>
how do you use vim without hotkeys
<aeTIos_web>
it's literally hotkey central
<Virindi>
memorizing a bunch of hotkeys vs. using menus is more of a "way your brain works" thing, not a "how much of a power user you are" thing
<aeTIos_web>
I don't think it even has menus
<Virindi>
I think in terms of spatial positioning
<Virindi>
not in terms of a list of controls
<aeTIos_web>
Virindi: Spatial positioning on your keyboard is still spatial positioning
<Virindi>
meh
<taniwha>
Virindi: while it now has a few too many functions to maintain the "rule", blender was designed to be used with the right-hand super-glued to the mouse, and the left hand super-glued to the home position on the keyboard
<aeTIos_web>
Leaves me wondering how you use vim without hotkeys
<Virindi>
I just go into edit mode and that's it.
<aeTIos_web>
lol
<taniwha>
however, the most used functions /do/ stick to the rule
<aeTIos_web>
I use nano for that purpose
<taniwha>
g, x, e, r, s
<taniwha>
and they're consistent through just about every editor in blender
<Virindi>
anything with multiple files, I open in multiple terms, or in a gui editor
<taniwha>
I've recently started using vim's windows
<taniwha>
a little wonky, but it's nice when working on a small set of files
<taniwha>
Virindi: what does the "Mu Shader" panel of your problem pane's material look like?
<taniwha>
Virindi: btw, in the save-as panel, there's a "compress" checkbox ;)
<Virindi>
I tried to copy all the object properties over from the screen on one of the default rpm models
<Virindi>
rpm is detecting the screen, well, at least, if I change the name of the mesh it is pointing to to something random it gives an error
<Virindi>
if I change it to "Plane" it doesn't give an error
<aeTIos_web>
taniwha: is it possible to limit mass or size with EPL?
<aeTIos_web>
like have a launchpad that can only support up to 5 t
<taniwha>
aeTIos_web: no
<taniwha>
for one, in orbit it makes no sense, and on the surface, physics will take care of the rest
<aeTIos_web>
It could be good for game balance to allow for smaller launchpads
<Virindi>
and yes I did copy the png files the shader refers to into the test prop directory
<taniwha>
aeTIos_web: that's something that has never made sense to me
<Virindi>
sorry I didn't put them in the zip
<Virindi>
the plane object appears in unity
<Virindi>
it does not appear in the game
<aeTIos_web>
taniwha: hmm, maybe not
<Virindi>
it's time-balanced I guess? what always seemed silly to me about EPL instead, was the fact that the only disadvantage to building a giant ship with one kerbal in a mk1 pod was how long you had to timewarp. but timewarping is free.
<Virindi>
and the rocket workshop is huge and heavy, which would make sense if it gave a real benefit
<aeTIos_web>
they should add an upkeep cost on the KSP
<Virindi>
but the productivity mechanic is a little strange from a gameplay perspective
<taniwha>
Virindi: it might be the .png in the texture names
<Virindi>
squad also acts like timewarping has some "cost"
<aeTIos_web>
KSC*
<taniwha>
Virindi: it /does/ have a cost
<Virindi>
taniwha: the .png appears the same way in the display I am copying.
<taniwha>
Virindi: missed windows
<taniwha>
afaik, it should not be there
<Virindi>
missed windows, I can just timewarp to the next window! :P
<taniwha>
however, the time thing wasn't about balance
<Virindi>
I will try removing .png.
<taniwha>
but making it so you didn't need insane storage to build huge ships
<taniwha>
and then giving meaning to kerbal attributes
<Virindi>
god, you have no idea how much grief you caused me there haha, years ago
<Virindi>
when I first loaded up the version of EPL that did that
<Virindi>
it was like
<Virindi>
"my productivity is negative, I can't build anything. I have an engineer..."
<Virindi>
"WHY"
<Virindi>
I had to read the source
<taniwha>
considering one guy had turned on permadeath and was flying hundreds of kerbals into recycling bins, I do have an idea
<Virindi>
to find out why
<aeTIos_web>
do kerbals have an upkeep?
<taniwha>
(that prompted me to make KerbalStats)
<aeTIos_web>
they're free in stock to keep alive
<taniwha>
aeTIos_web: not without a life-support mod
<aeTIos_web>
that's kinda silly, isn't it
<Virindi>
after much digging through the source and finding that "stupidity" mattered, wow I was, uh, a bit annoyed :P
<taniwha>
Virindi: heh
<taniwha>
it's also why I made stock experience affect productivity the way it does
<Virindi>
this was before kerbals got xp, iirc
<taniwha>
yeah, probably
<taniwha>
otherwise it wouldn't have been so painful for you
<taniwha>
just remember: I suffered from it too
<Virindi>
all my engineers had high stupidity too :P
<taniwha>
hmm, engineers always had experience (ie, classes and experience came at the same time)
<Virindi>
ah
<Virindi>
then I guess it was just that all my kerbals had high stupidity.
<Virindi>
I launched a mission and landed on laythe and unexpectedly couldn't build anything heh
<taniwha>
yeah, it's supposed to be an even distribution, but it seems engineers have a tendency to be stupid :(
<aeTIos_web>
lol
<taniwha>
(probably something to do with the PRNG)
<taniwha>
Virindi: all other surfaces on that prop work?
<Virindi>
heh rng issues, dunno
<Virindi>
yes.
<Virindi>
the whole rest of it appears in game, hold on I am loading the game, I just removed the png
<Virindi>
.png
<Virindi>
yeah still nothing.
<Virindi>
no errors referencing my prop in the log
<Virindi>
it appears in unity
<Virindi>
it still does not appear if I make it not the rpm "screen" in the cfg
<Virindi>
I feel like I accidentally invoked some "break this" flag in blender when I added the mesh, somehow
<taniwha>
well, it's not a "not closed mesh" thing
<taniwha>
I do that all the time with flags
<Virindi>
how do I add backfaces to the same triangles? might as well try that
<taniwha>
you have to extrude them
<taniwha>
(e key)
<Virindi>
hmm
<Virindi>
maybe it is a clipping problem
<taniwha>
that was one thing I thought of
<Virindi>
like maybe I placed it too close to the poly behind it
<aeTIos_web>
extrude is your biggest friend
<taniwha>
yeah, try moving it forward (or nuking that poly)
<taniwha>
Virindi: btw, my exporter works with n-gons and modifiers
<Qboid>
[#17] title: Create level areas for bases. | KSP physics doesn't like sprawling bases on uneven terrain. Providing a means to level the terrain would extend the lifespans of many bases.... | https://github.com/taniwha/Extraplanetary-Launchpads/issues/17
<taniwha>
aeTIos_web: for now, instead, you can use launch clamps and they will auto-extend :)
<Virindi>
yeah the normals were right
<taniwha>
aeTIos_web: check the title page of the manual :)
<aeTIos_web>
lol you already added every enhancement I can think of to the list
<aeTIos_web>
I might try and do som of these things if I dare to learn c#
<Virindi>
yeah adding the survey stake completely fixed the mod
<Virindi>
it was seriously screwed up to build anything big before, on the surface
<Virindi>
now it is great.
<taniwha>
not sure it's there, but building actual bases (ie, using PQSCity)
<aeTIos_web>
I still need to really look into epl
<taniwha>
aeTIos_web: VanDisaster was poking at that at one stage, but apparently he hasn't been too well of late
<aeTIos_web>
Oh. :c
<aeTIos_web>
I mean, K(I|A)S has a thing that attaches parts directly to ships
<taniwha>
that title page pic is probably my favorite EL screenshot
<aeTIos_web>
do you write research papers or what
<aeTIos_web>
lmao
<aeTIos_web>
i love the abstract
<Virindi>
jeez it looks like that took you a week of work
<aeTIos_web>
looks like more
<aeTIos_web>
gj
<taniwha>
the pic: 30s in inkscape :)
<taniwha>
the docs: weeks
<aeTIos_web>
it reminds me of a science report. And I love reading those.
<Virindi>
it has references, hilarious
<Virindi>
yeah like a research paper.
<taniwha>
did you check the footnotes? :)
<aeTIos_web>
I did
<taniwha>
however, it sounds like I need to remove references to MKS
<aeTIos_web>
kraken snack constructor
<aeTIos_web>
I love it
<aeTIos_web>
how long did you sit on that
<Virindi>
well, as we always say, that's just like the famous "footnote 12"! ha ha ha.
<taniwha>
it took a bit to come up with "constructor"
<Virindi>
coming from a background in law, I also appreciate hiding content in footnotes :D
<taniwha>
footnote 12: "A popular compound" ;)
<taniwha>
(page 16)
<aeTIos_web>
OOOHOHO directory[5]
<aeTIos_web>
[5]ok folder
<aeTIos_web>
hurrr durrrrrrrrr
<aeTIos_web>
im PARTIAL to either name
<taniwha>
actually, I think I'm partial to "CATALOG" ;)
<taniwha>
(what I had to type to see what was on my 160kB floppy)
<aeTIos_web>
heheh
<taniwha>
or 320kB flippy :P
<Virindi>
the fact that someone who is very familiar with blender can't find the problem with an object quickly, kinda confirms my impression of blender as "way too unfriendly"
<taniwha>
(hole-punch disk doubler)
<taniwha>
Virindi: it's more a subtlety with KSP and unity
<taniwha>
and that I've been spending more time chatting than poking
<aeTIos_web>
I'm partial to LOAD "$",8
<Virindi>
I expected it would be obvious :(
<taniwha>
$? that syntax looks familiar, but I've forgotten the details
<taniwha>
was that from tape?
<aeTIos_web>
(commodore 64 basic)
<taniwha>
aaaaaah, right
<aeTIos_web>
$ is the dir, it loads from 8 which is the floppy drive
<taniwha>
looks like I didn't finish section 1.2
<taniwha>
that, or I had a very Japanese moment
<taniwha>
(if you've dealt with Japanese English, that will make sense)
<aeTIos_web>
lul
<aeTIos_web>
engrish
<taniwha>
that works for Chinese (sorta), but not Japanese. For Japanese, it would ben engulishu
<aeTIos_web>
engurissu
<taniwha>
or even engudishu
<aeTIos_web>
lel
<taniwha>
getting Japanese to say "r" when they're supposed to is a major challenge
<taniwha>
(they're /great/ at saying wart instead of what, though)
<aeTIos_web>
de firsto taimo de supeesu sentedu isu entedudo
<aeTIos_web>
desu
<Virindi>
taniwha: what is the deal with the "mu tag"
<taniwha>
do, not du
<Virindi>
and layer
<Virindi>
is that something I have to worry about.
<Virindi>
it is "untagged" and "layer 0"
<taniwha>
Virindi: tag might be "ladder" and layer 21 (iirc)
<taniwha>
ladder, hatch
<Virindi>
do I have to set things to a particular tag and/or layer
<taniwha>
oh, of course
<taniwha>
duh
<taniwha>
yes, layer 20
<Virindi>
I was just clicking through every possible menu cross-comparing my object to the other one
<taniwha>
forgot that internals have special layers
<Virindi>
what does layer 20 mean
<taniwha>
well, maybe not 20
<taniwha>
hang on
<Virindi>
the other one is layer 20.
<taniwha>
16 for non-interactive elements
<taniwha>
(ie, ones you don't click)
<Virindi>
the included RPM MFD has a screen at layer 20
<taniwha>
just means you /can/ click the screen (if the mod responds to it)
<Virindi>
so layer I guess is some code that tells it what it is for
<taniwha>
layer is used for both rendering and collisions
<taniwha>
layers 16 and 20 are for IVA stuff (16 is static, 20 is interactive)
<taniwha>
0 is the default layer, so your panel /was/ showing... in external view
<taniwha>
though covered by the command pod
<Virindi>
hah! now the mesh appears in game....no text though, but one problem at a time, woot!
<taniwha>
sorry, I /completely/ forgot about that
<taniwha>
(told you it was a KSP thing:)
<Virindi>
so if it is layer 20, the part gets some kind of message when you click it...it would be cool to make a touchscreen actually, but later :)
<taniwha>
yeah
<aeTIos_web>
the survey stakes are clever
<taniwha>
I was incredibly happy when I thought of them
<taniwha>
I'd spent maybe a year trying to come up with a way to specify how to level ground for EL
<taniwha>
(ie, the where)
<Virindi>
okay, so how do I set this uv map, it seems like that might be the next problem. the texture on the screen now appears super large, like it is only showing one pixel of it on the mesh, so that may be why I am not seeing any text. RPM says "the screen must be a named transform, arranged in such a way that the texture's 0,1 coordinates are the top left corner of the screen"
<Virindi>
I googled "blender named transform" and got nothing useful
<taniwha>
then for some reason I thought of building ships without a pad, pondered that for a while and came up with the stakes
<aeTIos_web>
hmm
<aeTIos_web>
yeh, it's a pretty elegant solution
<taniwha>
Virindi: "transform" is a unity thing
<taniwha>
in blender, it's just the object name
<taniwha>
if you want a transform with no mesh, use an empty, otherwise just use a mesh object (the exporter will do the right thing)
<Virindi>
cool so it's probably just a uv problem
<taniwha>
yeah
<taniwha>
just unwrap it such that the visible surface covers the full UV square
<Virindi>
unfortunately I cannot parse that statement, I am looking at uv documentation now
<aeTIos_web>
I wonder if it helps that blender is the only 3d program I've ever used
<taniwha>
aeTIos_web: likely
<taniwha>
(and same here)
<aeTIos_web>
blender just makes sense to me
<aeTIos_web>
I still an absolutely horrid at modeling
<aeTIos_web>
but that's because I just never do it
<aeTIos_web>
24g this, 16g that, 6g the other
<aeTIos_web>
im nerdsniped
<taniwha>
Aug 3, 2014 is when I committed the stake model to EL's git
<taniwha>
aeTIos_web: hints are just below :)
<taniwha>
(same elements, different compound)
<aeTIos_web>
a popular compound
<taniwha>
got it yet? :)
<aeTIos_web>
no, cuz my relax-time keeps getting interrupted by rude customers who expect me to help with their silly issues #weekendworklife
<taniwha>
heh
<aeTIos_web>
I have a suspicion it is sucrose, however I have no hard proof for that just a gut feeling
<taniwha>
no, not sucrose
<taniwha>
sucrose is C12H22O11
<aeTIos_web>
yeah I didn't at all check it
<taniwha>
however, can be made from sucrose :)
<aeTIos_web>
the numbers are definitely a ratio that feels like a carbohydrate
<taniwha>
yeah
<aeTIos_web>
HEH.
<aeTIos_web>
yeah, that's a really really popular compound
<Virindi>
I was going to guess nicotine
<Virindi>
wrong apparently.
<aeTIos_web>
nicotine is way heavier than that
<Virindi>
no
<Virindi>
c10h14n2
<taniwha>
nicotine has nitrogen in it, too
<taniwha>
and is quite close to caffeine, from the looks of it
* Virindi
lights the blender ui on fire and walks away
<Virindi>
the people in these tutorials are clicking on buttons which don't exist.
<Virindi>
it's like oh just click here and
<aeTIos_web>
lelell
<Virindi>
and I'm like that button IS NOT THERE
<taniwha>
old tut, eh?
<Virindi>
2011.
<taniwha>
good grief. 2.48 was still in common use
<taniwha>
(and if you think the current UI is bad...)
<Virindi>
this entire thing seems designed to make it impossible to use unless you use it all the time :P
<aeTIos_web>
oh god
<aeTIos_web>
2.48 ui was cancer
<Virindi>
(and go to regular classes to teach you where the button moved to in the latest version)
<aeTIos_web>
The worst part?
<aeTIos_web>
the whole YSFlight community runs on 2.48
<aeTIos_web>
but I was already used to 2.5+
<aeTIos_web>
because it is positively better
<taniwha>
one thing I wasn't happy about the move from 2.48 to 2.5+
<taniwha>
it broke my n-body simulator
<taniwha>
(well, just earth, moon, and a few ships)
<aeTIos_web>
taniwha: yeah, that compound is actually commonly made from sugar; I daresay it is one of the most common products even
<aeTIos_web>
I enjoy having some of it every now and then.
<taniwha>
same, but not too much
<aeTIos_web>
Too much is meh
<aeTIos_web>
some people say they like it but I doubt it
<Virindi>
the only thing I can think of that fits that description is ethanol...
<taniwha>
bingo :)
<taniwha>
C2H5OH
<taniwha>
thus 24g, 6g, 16g
<taniwha>
(2*12, 6*1, 1*16)
<aeTIos_web>
I studied chem in college/uni for 2 years before dropping out
<aeTIos_web>
I know most of my hydrocarbons
<aeTIos_web>
er
<aeTIos_web>
I know the basics of organic chemistry*
<aeTIos_web>
very fun subject
<taniwha>
I did university chemistry only in first-year (if at all? maybe it was just physics)
<aeTIos_web>
chemistry is just applied physics
<Virindi>
sorta? in theory it is applied physics, but in practice good luck getting easy conclusions about chemical reactions knowing nothing but quantum mechanics
<aeTIos_web>
easy and quantum should be banned in the same sentence
<taniwha>
that reminds me, anybody ever watch Arrival?
<taniwha>
I was amused when -1/12 popped up
<aeTIos_web>
-1/12 :)
<taniwha>
rather indirectly, so you had to be in the know to get it, though
<aeTIos_web>
taniwha: you have a pull request :^)
<taniwha>
"I measured the volume of the negative space and got 0.08333..."
<taniwha>
oh?
<aeTIos_web>
dammit we have clients queueing I don
<aeTIos_web>
't want this
<aeTIos_web>
it's a rather minor change, I should have gathered some more stuff you missed
<aeTIos_web>
but I thought it was funny to submit a PR for 1 character :p
<Virindi>
well, I spent the 3 days before that working on code...and accomplished a crapton there, accomplished the insane, then I decided to take a break after submitting the PR and try to make a screen
<Virindi>
and after days of pwning a complex state machine into submission, I couldn't make a rectangle
<Virindi>
a stark contrast.
<aeTIos_web>
quirks will be quirks
<Virindi>
if you ever want to know how KerbalEVA works, block out 3 hours and I'll explain it to you
<Virindi>
heh
<aeTIos_web>
all this modding talk makes me wanna fire up blender and make some parts that I've been wanting to make forever
<aeTIos_web>
but im not home
<Virindi>
last night I was ready to give up on making a screen and just go try to make kerbals have first person view in command seats
<aeTIos_web>
I want to make a set of balance weights
<aeTIos_web>
or just in general, satellite parts
<aeTIos_web>
because we can never have enough bits and bops
<Virindi>
I'd suggest the nrap mod but it seems to be buggy in 1.2
<aeTIos_web>
I don't want test weight
<aeTIos_web>
s
<Virindi>
I mean just as an adjustable weight
<Virindi>
it doesn't have to be for testing :)
<aeTIos_web>
I know, but I think it looks horrible
<aeTIos_web>
kek
<Virindi>
just copy and paste the part's config into some random other part
<Virindi>
like a copy of roundified monoprop tank for instance
<Virindi>
that would look like a weight.
<aeTIos_web>
itwould but that kills the fun of making my own parts
<Virindi>
or you could always do what the "vanilla ONLY" type people do, use ore tanks....except you could edit the config so they hold as much ore as you need :)
<aeTIos_web>
meh vanilla only
<aeTIos_web>
I like stockalike
<aeTIos_web>
but the core game isn't complete enough for me as it is now
<Virindi>
yes I am talking about that segment of the population who seems to think that using mods is immoral somehow
<Virindi>
that it is cheating
<Virindi>
seems to be a large segment of the population.
<aeTIos_web>
dunno, I don
<aeTIos_web>
't play career
<aeTIos_web>
for some reason many people seem to enjoy it but I get most enjoyment out of building whatever the fuck I feel like and then launching it
<Virindi>
yeah I figured everyone in a "modding" channel would be more along the lines of "it's a single player game, do whatever you want that makes it fun for you" :)
<aeTIos_web>
Tweakscale is my biggest friend tbh
<aeTIos_web>
I squealed a bit when I realized they added scaling for wheels
<Virindi>
tweakscale does harm the balance of the tech tree
<Virindi>
oh god wheels
<Virindi>
god.
<Virindi>
how do people even play with stock wheels now, it is the glitchiest glitchfest to ever glitch
<aeTIos_web>
are there better wheels
<Virindi>
make a rover with 8 wheels? nope buddy, as soon as it spawns it starts jiggling like mad until it shoots 100m into the air and slams down and explodes
<Virindi>
yes.
<aeTIos_web>
link me to better wheels pls thx
<Virindi>
they are also buggy but in different, more tolerable ways http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/155056-122-kerbal-foundries-continued-tracks-wheels-and-gear-03-05-17/
<Virindi>
like for instance, the wheel motors can't decide which direction should be forward
<Virindi>
but!
<Virindi>
landing a plane doesn't cause it to bounce and explode 99% of the time like stock wheels.
<Virindi>
so it's a win.
<aeTIos_web>
never have issues landing planes
<Virindi>
it is a big problem with heavy planes (spaceplanes) and high landing speeds (FAR requirement for a heavy plane with small wings...)
<aeTIos_web>
on the other hand you're asking for problems when you try driving 20m/s with a rover that's like 300 kg
<aeTIos_web>
even less on mun
<aeTIos_web>
that said I've had some fun building rollcages
<aeTIos_web>
I just realized that I think I've never used anything but the rovemax tiny wheels.
<Virindi>
aren't all wheels "rovemax" :P
<aeTIos_web>
really?
<Virindi>
ah not the one without suspension
<Virindi>
the huge one, the tiny one, and the orange one are rovemax
<aeTIos_web>
til
<aeTIos_web>
that should tell you about enough how much I use the other wheels
<Virindi>
at first I thought the huge one was the one that was rovemax
<Virindi>
I mean it made sense, it was huge :P
<Virindi>
I tried using it the other day, couldn't turn
<Virindi>
sigh
<aeTIos_web>
yeah it uses tank steering
<Virindi>
yes but it doesn't work, probably because of friction control
<aeTIos_web>
i dunno I like how the tiny wheel looks and launching anything that uses the bigger wheels is a huge pain in the ass anyway
<aeTIos_web>
:P
<aeTIos_web>
I mean, look at how massive these buggy wheels are
<Virindi>
pffft comon man, you're using tweakscale, you could just as easily launch a 1000 ton vessel
<Virindi>
but
<aeTIos_web>
I wasn't using it back then.
<Virindi>
tweakscale is actually broken for wheels.
<aeTIos_web>
is it?
<Virindi>
it causes them to use WAY too much power.
<aeTIos_web>
I don't mind
<Virindi>
like tweak up the orange wheel to the size of the huge wheel, and it uses like 10000x as much power as a huge wheel.
<Virindi>
enough that you'd better have a nuclear reactor on your rover
<Virindi>
nothing else will provide enough power
<aeTIos_web>
oh
<aeTIos_web>
yeah I only scale down
<aeTIos_web>
hahah
<soundnfury>
Virindi: sounds like a thing Sovjets would do
<Virindi>
I haven't tried it but I bet it does the opposite :)
<aeTIos_web>
It looked fairly balanced to me.
<aeTIos_web>
But I play sandbox so I could basically just hack some insane solar panels
<Virindi>
soundnfury, I hope you mean that in a way of "wouldn't that be AWESOME" :D
<Virindi>
I want a nuclear powered icebreaker.
<aeTIos_web>
It'd surprise me if those didn't exist yet
<Virindi>
nuclear icebreaker? it does.
<Virindi>
one of them melted down
<aeTIos_web>
fun
<Virindi>
in like the 80s or 90s
<Virindi>
the whole thing was contaminated and they sank it to deal with it
<Virindi>
still awesome.
<aeTIos_web>
isn't water pretty good at blocking radiation
<taniwha>
water is excellent at blocking radiation
<Virindi>
yeah it isn't the first nuclear reactor sitting on the bottom of the ocean.
<Virindi>
it's more an issue of seawater is good at corroding casings and carrying away bits of material
<taniwha>
all that hydrogen gives good neutron absorption, and the electrons deal with the gamma rays
<Virindi>
sea life carries material around, etc
<aeTIos_web>
yeah i se
<Virindi>
luckily the ocean is really huge so it is "a drop in the bucket"
<aeTIos_web>
just dump it into the mariana trench
<taniwha>
there's already more bits of material in every glass of seawater than any amount of reactors will put into one
<Virindi>
if you look at it as a whole, on average
<Virindi>
but there are some places you might not want to fish.
<Virindi>
places where concentration might be locally higher :)
<aeTIos_web>
big deal
<aeTIos_web>
70% water
<taniwha>
after hearing about that "300t/day" thing for Fukushima, I did some calculations
<Virindi>
you don't want to fish right next to fukushima either.
<Virindi>
but once you go far enough away that there is time to mix of course it is fine
<Virindi>
I am just talking about local concentration
<taniwha>
for the entire 6 year period, it works out, for 100% concentration (ie, no dispersal) at 0.6km^2 for a 1m deep layer
<taniwha>
there are a LOT of square kilometers between Fukushima and LA :P
<Virindi>
I never said LA was in any danger :D
<taniwha>
'twas a reference to the vid
<Virindi>
ah
<aeTIos_web>
we'll just get radiation resistant life close to the hotspots
<Virindi>
meh, some pseudoscience scare tactics whatever
<aeTIos_web>
future generations will chill on the elephant's feet
<taniwha>
yeah, it was a "Fukushima - BUSTED" vid
<aeTIos_web>
I watched a couple flat earth videos a few days ago
<aeTIos_web>
you don't make that shit up
<taniwha>
someone did :P
<aeTIos_web>
those guys are for real and I don't get why
<Virindi>
yes I watched that video, he would also agree I bet that fishing right next to the reactor is probably not a great idea :P
<taniwha>
Virindi: yeah
<Virindi>
they're for real? huh
<Virindi>
I thought "flat earth" was like pastafarians
<Virindi>
making fun of crazy people by example
<aeTIos_web>
im afraid not
<Virindi>
or you were trolled :P
<taniwha>
the originals likely were just joking
<taniwha>
but enough have since bought into it :(
<aeTIos_web>
Virindi: meh, I want to believe that it's really good satire
<aeTIos_web>
but watching those videos... I'm afraid many of them really think earth is flat
<taniwha>
aeTIos_web: likely a good satire gone bad
<aeTIos_web>
I guess, yeah
<aeTIos_web>
I mean
<aeTIos_web>
c'mon, there's still people denying the moon landings....
<Virindi>
those shadows ARE WRONG man
<Virindi>
;)
<aeTIos_web>
ye boy
<aeTIos_web>
WHERES DAT BLAST CRATER
<Virindi>
just need to get china to put a rover at one of the apollo sites
<Virindi>
that's the best argument against the conspiracy theory: "if it were true wouldn't the soviet union have worked to prove it to embarrass the US"
<aeTIos_web>
that would be sick, I want to see how the sites look today
SilverFox has joined #kspmodding
<aeTIos_web>
oon the other hand, Virindi: Those people can't be converted by ratio anymore
<Virindi>
honestly I think the space shuttle was a fake. it was so freaking awesome that it can't have been real
<Virindi>
a huge fucking plane. that flies to space. and lands.
<Virindi>
when all other spacecraft are dinky little capsules there was this huge fucking plane
<aeTIos_web>
must be fake man
<Virindi>
surely fake.
<taniwha>
it didn't fly in space
<taniwha>
it fell
<taniwha>
with style ;)
<Virindi>
"flies TO space", not "flies IN space"
<taniwha>
and really, come on, tiny ship, huge planet, just how hard is it to hit the ground anyway?
<Virindi>
it flew TO space, just because there wasn't any aerodynamic lift involved in that procedure doesn't mean it wasn't flying :P
<aeTIos_web>
pretty hard to hit it without smashing yourself into a million pieces
<taniwha>
aeTIos_web: reference to "falling towards the ground and missing"
<taniwha>
(ie, orbiting)
<Virindi>
I thought we were supposed to call not missing "lithobraking" here
<soundnfury>
Virindi: the shuttle wasn't awesome.
<soundnfury>
Everything about it was wrong.
<Virindi>
that's right, it was REALLY FUCKING AWESOME :P
<aeTIos_web>
:D
<taniwha>
you must first not miss the ground before you can lithobrake
<taniwha>
the shuttle was awesome
<Virindi>
I might even say, the space shuttle was....kerbal
<Virindi>
jeb would be proud
<taniwha>
might have been wrong, but it was still awesome
<Virindi>
why go for efficiency when you can make something 10x the size it has to be just for extra awesomeness points
<taniwha>
(come on, gotta be awesome if it works despite being wrong:P)
<Virindi>
my favorite space picture is the one of atlantis docked to mir
<Virindi>
atlantis...is the same size as mir
<Virindi>
it's crayz.
<Virindi>
crazy*
<soundnfury>
Virindi: exactly... it's crazy to subtract that huge mass from every payload you launch
<soundnfury>
(and also require every payload launch you do to be manned...)
<Virindi>
yes, crazy.............crazy AWESOME!
<Virindi>
:D
* soundnfury
just hates horizontal-landing spacecraft
<soundnfury>
gib more DC-X, Mockingbird and F9, kthx
<Virindi>
I would personally have been willing to pay more taxes if it meant not canceling the shuttle and working on a new craft that was an evolution of the shuttle concept
<taniwha>
nah, landing spacecraft is such a waste
<taniwha>
they should all go up, stay up, and get bolted together into a space shanty town
<soundnfury>
taniwha: the Russians tried that. That's why Mir caught fire
<Virindi>
cooler to have badass sstos. or fully recoverable dstos I guess, but spacex is just not on the awesomeness level of the shuttle sorry
<taniwha>
soundnfury: they forgot to install a hammer beside the portal
<taniwha>
porthole
<aeTIos_web>
e-mail setting issues infuriate me
<aeTIos_web>
my employer (a national isp) signs their own certs
<taniwha>
soundnfury: the shuttle can easily be beaten for efficiency, but not for awesomeness
<Virindi>
what was clearly needed was an external tank for the shuttle that could survive reentry and be recovered!
<aeTIos_web>
but they're shit so a large portion of phones just plain reject the certs
<Virindi>
for more points
<aeTIos_web>
cue customers who complain because mail ain't working
<taniwha>
anyway, I need to get to bed
<taniwha>
goodnight
<aeTIos_web>
night
<Virindi>
thanks again for the help today
<Virindi>
the goal should be a ssto plane that flies to orbit then comes back and lands and can immediately go back up after a trivial checkout...the space shuttle, they wanted it to be a step towards that, just because it was super expensive and such doesn't mean that experience couldn't be used to get closer to the goal. Except that now all that expensive knowledge is being tossed away
<Virindi>
it needs to be iterated on
<Virindi>
not doing so makes the huge cost of the shuttle, wasted
<aeTIos_web>
The space shuttle was great; the most advanced orbital servicing system, ever
<Virindi>
standalone sure it was a boondoggle, but as a learning step towards some kind of ssto plane in the future it was great
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<aeTIos_web>
learning point: Check your O-rings
<Virindi>
horizontal landing spacecraft is the only way to go :)
<Virindi>
they did.
<Virindi>
the engineer whose job was the orings
<Virindi>
told them not to launch
<Virindi>
he said it would explode
<aeTIos_web>
Don't ignore your O-rings
<Virindi>
he told his wife that if it launches it will explode
<Virindi>
management overrode him
<aeTIos_web>
s/O-rings/engineers
<Qboid>
aeTIos_web meant to say: Don't ignore your engineers
<aeTIos_web>
I forgot what was the issue again, didn't they get brittle due to the extreme cold, causing a vent against the tank isolation, which then caught fire, the rest is history?
<Virindi>
pretty much
<Virindi>
except previously that also happened to lesser extents
<Virindi>
originally the system was spec'd to be a "perfect seal"
<Virindi>
then they noticed there was some blow through
<Virindi>
and they changed the spec retroactively
<aeTIos_web>
#CostSavingsMyMan
<Virindi>
they were like "well there is some blow through but whatever it seems to work"
<aeTIos_web>
well yeah but it gets worse
<aeTIos_web>
I mena
<Virindi>
but the o-ring people knew it would fail at that temp
<aeTIos_web>
I do that in KSP
<aeTIos_web>
:^)
<Virindi>
they said it would fail, but the company that made the SRB had its contract up for renewal
<Virindi>
so canceling the launch would have been bad
<Virindi>
and nasa just wanted to launch too
<aeTIos_web>
and it all boils down to public image again
<Virindi>
the only people who didn't want to "just launch now it has always worked in the past" were the engineers who actually knew the system
<Virindi>
nontechnical managers: always screwing everything up
<aeTIos_web>
it sucks that most smart people are not manager types
<aeTIos_web>
erm
<aeTIos_web>
i mean
<aeTIos_web>
technical
<Virindi>
because management is filled with bullshit and weaseling? :D
<Virindi>
it's a job of playing politics
<aeTIos_web>
yeah, that
<Virindi>
just the kind of thing technical people dislike
<aeTIos_web>
technical people just are like these are the facts and I conclude this.
<Virindi>
facts, evidence, and logical argument are more important to us than realpolitik, but realpolitik is how you have to get things done in the world
<Virindi>
basically I got my knowledge on the subject from reading the commission report
<Virindi>
so I guess it isn't surprising
<soundnfury>
tl;dr: Boisjoly probably could have stopped the launch if he'd refused to shut up when the managers started glaring at him. (However, that takes a *lot* of courage and it's not fair to judge him.)
<aeTIos_web>
still the managers fault tbh
<Virindi>
seems pretty clear to me that he was bullied by management into shutting up
<soundnfury>
aeTIos_web: oh absolutely. just as structural design needs to avoid stressing any particular member beyond its design limit,
<soundnfury>
so the design of organisational structures needs to take into account that _people_ have limits
<soundnfury>
and organisational structures around the Shuttle program have always been _really bad_ in that regard
<aeTIos_web>
on the other hand
<aeTIos_web>
we live and learn
<aeTIos_web>
or in this case
<aeTIos_web>
they die, we learn
<Virindi>
everyone except the crew lives and learns
<aeTIos_web>
I always get cramps in my stomach when I read this
<aeTIos_web>
it gives me an intense feel of injustice
<Virindi>
the worst part is reading about how they were alive through the explosion
<Virindi>
same with columbia
<Virindi>
turns out, the space shuttle cockpit is pretty resilient.
<Virindi>
...and then you die later
<aeTIos_web>
did they die at impact?
<Virindi>
probably
<aeTIos_web>
that sucks balls
<Virindi>
there is evidence that they were alive during the fall
<aeTIos_web>
Didn't they work to archive the xenon experiments
<aeTIos_web>
or what that columbia
<Virindi>
no idea about that
<Virindi>
it was like, switches flipped and stuff in a way that would make sense if you were frantically trying to do something after you were falling
<Virindi>
oxygen gear, used
<Virindi>
that kind of thing
<aeTIos_web>
the biggest issue with the shuttle
<aeTIos_web>
no safeties during launch
<Virindi>
*except sts-1
<aeTIos_web>
didn't they have ejection seats
<Virindi>
yes
<aeTIos_web>
I'm told they would've not saved challenger
<Virindi>
but ejection seats wouldn't accommodate a larger crew.
<aeTIos_web>
logging off this pc. brb on phone.
<Virindi>
it was pretty high and fast
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<Virindi>
you can't eject in a bare seat hypersonic but maybe at lower altitude and slower? if you survive and are conscious long enough. or you could put parachutes on an ejection pod like the b-58...that thing is bads
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<Virindi>
the space shuttle needed b-58 ejection pods
<aetios-phone2>
yeah
<aetios-phone2>
disasters have to happen sadly, people are stubborn
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<Virindi>
...but then nobody could sit on the lower deck, because ejection downward would be blocked by the external tank
<aetios-phone2>
well I dont think it'd be a good idea to have ejection ports on the bottom anyway
<Virindi>
I bet something could be devised but I'm sure it would be more difficult
<aetios-phone2>
wouldn't that compromise heatshield integrity
<Virindi>
it can be a solid piece right up until you need to eject.
<Virindi>
the tiles, I mean
<Virindi>
dunno
<Virindi>
just seems to me that you can always blast stuff apart if you don't care about the structure of the spacecraft now
<aetios-phone2>
capsules will always be safer
<aetios-phone2>
period
<Virindi>
but I'm not a shuttle heat tile engineer or a demolitions expert :)
<aetios-phone2>
>plays KSP
<aetios-phone2>
>not a demolitions expert
<aetios-phone2>
?
<Virindi>
having escape pods is essentially sticking a capsule in the front of a plane.
<Virindi>
I know you have done that in ksp!
<Virindi>
I wonder what happened to the FAR "Dark Hammer", that was the coolest ssto ever.
<Virindi>
ssto'ing with a mainsail like a boss
<aetios-phone2>
:o
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<Virindi>
hmm I only have installs on this drive back to 0.90, no FAR "Dark Hammer"
<Virindi>
I want that and the little brother, what the heck was the smaller version called
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<Virindi>
HAH here it is.
<Virindi>
"Hydra", that's the little brother
<Virindi>
not gonna fly with the new stock gear without replacing them, sigh
<Virindi>
haha not even close to enough pitch authority to get off the runway without slamming into the ocean. nice
<Virindi>
I guess now with voxels half the control surfaces are blocked by the body of the craft
<Virindi>
success! :D
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<aetios-phone>
sup
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