egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
paculino has joined #principia
paculino has quit [Ping timeout: 189 seconds]
paculino has joined #principia
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ thats neat, never noticed that
<queqiao-> ⟨Mayo⟩ is a 10 meter tollerance good for planning orbits around earth?
<queqiao-> ⟨MPGPT⟩ Not beeing able to use PVG in the beginning with principia is so damm hard :(
<queqiao-> ⟨Mayo⟩ but...i can use it?
<queqiao-> ⟨MPGPT⟩ Getting first orbit was a pain
<queqiao-> ⟨Mayo⟩ PVG work fine for me
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Principia should not interfere with PVG, if you are having issues with PVG maybe ask in #mechjeb-pvg
<queqiao-> ⟨MPGPT⟩ I Jean with like the usual 2 aerobees + LR 48
<queqiao-> ⟨MPGPT⟩ Mean*
<queqiao-> ⟨MPGPT⟩ Pvg with fully guided rocket should work fine
<queqiao-> ⟨MPGPT⟩ Just not fully gidded is the pain, I didn't knew when to burn and with what inclination
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ … how does that have anything to do with Principia?
<queqiao-> ⟨MPGPT⟩ Because without principia I would burn like 1 minute before apo (if I had 2 minutes burn time ), with principia I just wasn't sure if I needed to change anything about my aproache
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ ⟪MPGPT⟫ I Jean with like the usual 2 aerobees + […] ⮪ LR 48 turns up nothing, LR 84 also nothing
<queqiao-> ⟨Mayo⟩ my rocket's last 3 kickstages arent guided
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ you dont need to change anything
<queqiao-> ⟨Mayo⟩ and PVG work it just fine
<queqiao-> ⟨MPGPT⟩ Well then I must have done something wrong then when I was doing it then :/ oh well
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ ⟪pEdro⟫ LR 48 turns up nothing, LR 84 also […] ⮪ well, a lawnmower and a type of button cell
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ PVG does not work on unguided stages at all
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ if it worked without _any_ manual steering, you have insane luck
<queqiao-> ⟨MPGPT⟩ I can't remember the actual engine name sorry XD
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ I am reminded of my unguided solid rockets to launch a bottle of ~wine~ hydrazine into orbit some years ago
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ https://i.imgur.com/OmzkMoi.png
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ https://i.imgur.com/jmzs2P8.png
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ where did you launch from ?
<queqiao-> the middle of the sahare ?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Yeah, that was from Hammaguir I think
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ I did it again from Kourou a few versions later https://i.imgur.com/Kav0NEd.png
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ ah, the Diamant launch site
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ https://i.imgur.com/DH8VBJh.png
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ I should try that again now that we have Waterfall etc.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ also with the improvement to procedural tanks I might be able to make a bottle of Bourgogne
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ https://i.imgur.com/jmzs2P8.png ⮪ Looking back at that screenshot, RO sure has come a long way
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ hmm, looking at this, i should really try pressure fed only to orbit from the OTRAG launch site
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Looking back at that screenshot, RO […] ⮪ Looks like the FAR version dates that to about 2014
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ (the other one is February 2016)
<queqiao-> ⟨Mayo⟩ Aight the declutter button saves my framerates while warping big time
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ especially if you use ECEF a lot it should be fairly useful
<queqiao-> ⟨ProtonEnjoyer⟩ ECEF is basically how your orbits will go with the surface as reference?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ yup, hence the entire solar system covering the sky with noodles
<queqiao-> ⟨ProtonEnjoyer⟩ Yeah. Solar noodles are kind of annoying
<queqiao-> ⟨ProtonEnjoyer⟩ is there a way to like
<queqiao-> ⟨ProtonEnjoyer⟩ sort of shut those noodles up so i can focus more on earth than my eyes dying
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ yes there is, that is in fact what we were talking about
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ I recommend reading the changelog
<queqiao-> ⟨ProtonEnjoyer⟩ Is principia supposed to be harder than stock, or just purely for more realistic orbits, etc?
<queqiao-> I find principia to be way easier to use than stock, especially for transferring to other planets.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ I find the « harder » framing that sometimes goes around largely uninteresting. Multi-body and extended-body effects change things a little bit, some impossible things become possible, some things are made difficult. But the main difference is that the tools built to deal with those effects completely change the experience for everything else you do in space, even on trajectories that are pretty much the same as stock.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ (Also, Florida man cannot launch into the plane of the moon unless he waits 18 years. But the fact that this is a possibility in stock RSS is highly unrealistic.)
<raptop> (The answer is of course that Florida Man should cultivate a taste for baguettes and/or naan)
<paculino> Is there a chart on the delta-V cost of a dogleg from Florida to reach the plane of the moon by time in the cycle?
<raptop> Not that I'm aware of. That feels like something that would get you deep into rocket design assumptions (and so not really analytic)
<queqiao-> ⟨Vlood⟩ it would probably be highly dependent on ascent profile and vehicle design, i agree
<paculino> Fair. Maybe simplifying it as the cost of a plane-change at 100km would be better.
<paculino> Strange; my client is highlighting Vlood as admin....
<raptop> Florida Man penalty chart listing plane change costs over time would be amusing
<paculino> I might work on it next week
<queqiao-> ⟨Butcher⟩ Why would you plane change?
<paculino> I wouldn't, but it is a lot easier to calculate than dogleg, and should still be proportional to the dogleg cost
<queqiao-> ⟨Butcher⟩ I shall restate, why would you dogleg?
<queqiao-> ⟨Kirk (He/Him)⟩ Clearly, the answer is air launched Saturn V
<paculino> It helps with unguided kick stages a little... mostly just to see the Florida Man lunar plane cost chart
<queqiao-> ⟨Butcher⟩ ⟪egg⟫ I find the « harder » framing that […] ⮪ I agree with this. I don't find Principia harder, just different. Also one has to accept that an orbit is not going to be circular to 1 part in 100 billion or other such patch conic assumptions.
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ well, you can get an orbit that circulat, for a fleeting moment
<queqiao-> ⟨Butcher⟩ ⟪Kirk (He/Him)⟫ Clearly, the answer is air launched […] ⮪ Fly it south on the back of a 747 then air launch out from the equator.
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ actually, i did just that last week
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ flew a big plane full of fuel south, decouple a dummy payload, then fly back north
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ with 150t payload it barely gets of the runway, this includes jet fuel mass
<queqiao-> ⟨pEdro⟩ so, 110t can be brought to 17° of the equator or 70t to the equator
<queqiao-> ⟨Butcher⟩ Definitely too far from my current site.
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ ⟪paculino⟫ Fair. Maybe simplifying it as the cost […] ⮪ once you're past a couple fractions of a degree it costs the same as a plane change. if you ever do launches with MJ to a few degrees below your inclination then you're powersliding at 90 degrees to insertion, and you also need to have a rocket that has the burntime/coast to travel that far south to hit the inclination point. it isn't even worth thinking about a...
<queqiao-> ... dogleg with something like a titan-2 or some of the early rocket designs, you need to be thinking more Ariane V with a 0.20 TWR hydrolox upper stage that burns for 20 minutes. and really with principia it just isn't even worth thinking about. if you just play around with doglegs to 26 degrees from KSC you'll see it isn't worthwhile, and doglegs are just wrong. that isn't how we got to the moon IRL, we didn't even launch due east, but at...
<queqiao-> ... 32-ish degrees inc.
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ even with nearly perfect timing in the lunar cycle you're just wasting a massive chunk of your TLI ∆v budget because you can't do a MCC.
<queqiao-> ⟨Butcher⟩ If you launch into the right LAN you don't even need a mcc.
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ when it comes to trying to launch into the plane of the moon when its like 18 degrees then you need to consider how much TIME it takes to get from KSC at 28.608 lat to an 18 degree ground track.
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ right
<queqiao-> ⟨Butcher⟩ At orbital speed straight south its nearly 2.5 minutes to get that far South.
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ but you can't do that, you need to meet it at closer to a 45 degree angle, at averaging probably half that speed and it just takes a lot of time to do that massive inc change.
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ I don’t see why you would need or want to dogleg? I wouldn’t call principia harder than stock, you just don’t do things the same way aka launch into the plane of the moon. First question of every principia launch “okay so what’s the LAN I need to launch into…”
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ Considering that LAN is mostly hidden and incomprehensible, this may present a difficulty to new players 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨Al₂Me₆⟩ Egg did specify 'Florida Man'...
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ So that’s code-speak for new principia player 😎
<paculino> Or is it just for new principia players launching from Florida?
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ ⟪test_account⟫ Considering that LAN is mostly hidden […] ⮪ doesn't the Target Info menu in MJ give the LAN of the target you select if it is the Moon?
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ well you need to know that
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ But you don’t actually want to launch into the moons LAN
<paculino> You can't set targets very early though
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ it's getting worse 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ Realistically, a new player will need a script or other tool telling them how to launch
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ Or hyper edit 😅
<paculino> What if they wait to install Principia until they can eyeball a lunar mission?
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ does it make any sense to try to send a rocket to the moon when you can't set targets?
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ think about the analogy of what "setting at target" means when projected on to actual real life, and consider if humans would be able to send a lunar mission without having that capability
<paculino> I always try in career mode. If I miss (I almost always do), I get science still, just far less. Sometimes it happens to get an encounter a year or two later, but by then I have an actual orbiter.
<queqiao-> ⟨Butcher⟩ I don't send stuff to the moon until I have flight planning.
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ yeah if you don't have flight planning and you're trying to get to the moon, it should be completely painful. otherwise you're asking for flight planning before you've got flight planning.
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ Even with flight planning - is it really sufficient to just launch to the Moon's LAN? Traveling there takes time, several days in fact, so the Moon won't be there when the probe arrives.
<queqiao-> ⟨Butcher⟩ You launch into a lan such that your transfer orbit intercepts the moon.
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ so yes, not the Moon's LAN
<queqiao-> ⟨lamont⟩ i think if you're using a parking orbit you can launch due east to the moons lan and that will minimize the relative inclination between the parking orbit and the moon? i've never validated that. if you're doing direct ascent though you have the additional problem of timing in which case matching lans isn't useful at all
<queqiao-> ⟨lpg⟩ matching lans gets you 1 (2) transfer windows per month
<queqiao-> ⟨lpg⟩ launching into the "right" lan gets you 1 or 2 daily
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ ⟪lamont⟫ even with nearly perfect timing in the […] ⮪ MCC?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ We need an acronym bot like in IRC...
<queqiao-> ⟨test_account⟩ I think they mean mid-course corrections.
<queqiao-> ⟨Butcher⟩ ⟪lpg⟫ launching into the "right" lan gets you […] ⮪ You can transfer any time, you get two easterly launched transfers per day.
armed_troop has quit [Quit: Bye]
armed_troop has joined #principia
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ How do you switch from a easterly night launch to a easterly day launch? Is one better than the other at any given time? I use hyper edit to find the ideal LAN, I have not figured out how to switch it to launching 12 hours earlier/later and not have it cost more delta v
<queqiao-> ⟨lpg⟩ the 2 windows are rarely 12 hours apart
<queqiao-> ⟨lpg⟩ hyperedit should let you find both
<queqiao-> ⟨lpg⟩ (itsryan's kOS script will find the next two and default to the soonest, I think)
<queqiao-> ⟨lpg⟩ One bit of trickiness to the HE method is that the more time between now and launch time, the more wrong that ideal LAN is going to be, since the moon is moving on. So it will generally work better to use HE to get a rough LAN, revert to launch, warp to that time, and then _redo_ the HE method to finetune
Raidernick has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Raidernick has joined #principia
<queqiao-> ⟨Marsh⟩ I’ll look for 2 using HE next time. What I have now is a LAN adjustment calculation in a spreadsheet that adjusts the LAN based on how long the rocket has to wait until the launch LAN. I don’t know how accurate this is, but it’s enough that the mechjeb delta v prediction is right on the money. Based on looking for the LAN, it seems you can be some amount of LAN off from ideal with very small (1’s) of extra delta v required