egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao-> ⟨butcher6994⟩ Is this a problem for you?
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<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ Im running RSS Origin with RSS reborn and I too get a crash on load after the new update for this month
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Which body is broken?
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ To be specific im running the old google docs version of RSS reborn, which uses foxs kopernicus version 1.12.1.197? (im pretty sure i read that right) the main reason is the new version of RSS reborn has a ton of terrain errors hes still working on
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ How would I be able to tell?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ What does the FATAL file say?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ > To be specific im running the old google docs version of RSS rebornWell that is probably interesting. If people are using old ad hoc installs of that, it is unsurprising that we are unable to reproduce the issues when using the latest instructions & installer…
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ If Ballistic fox creates a new fork for the google doc version do you think the issue will clear?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ > the main reason is the new version of RSS reborn has a ton of terrain errors hes still working onI don’t know what is going on in the new or old or middle-aged version of RSS-reborn. But if Principia is crashing on load, it is because the terrain is broken
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ I don’t think a proliferation of ad hoc versions of mods is going to help anyone.
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ what is strange is it didnt last update
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Yes, because it was happening only when you did things that caused us to look at the terrain system. Now that we know that some people break the terrain system, we check first, otherwise this is impossible to diagnose.
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ I see, so should I just run version Kleene until RSS reborn fixes the issues I dislike? Or is there a way I can continue to run the latest version of principia with some config adjusting
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ At the end of the day, you do what you want. If you don’t use the latest version, we don’t care about you and we will not look at your bug reports.
<queqiao-> As far as we are concerned, you are trying to use mods that don’t work. Last we checked, if you install RSS-reborn using its installer, it works. Whatever you are doing gets you a broken mod. We don’t support broken mods.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ darth_dog also, you still have not answered this question.
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ Thats totally fair, I just really dont like the RSS reborn terrain spikes in the current update, but im not surprised the second newest version is broken XD, Thank you for your time
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ is it worth it? I dont want to bother you with broken congomerate of mods issues
<queqiao-> ⟨mmeridian⟩ for what it's worth, I've only seen the spikes on the moon
<queqiao-> ⟨Al₂Me₆⟩ Have you simply considered _not using_ a mod which is clearly unfinished, unsupported by the RO dev team, and also clearly bugged?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Well, giving one planet name here is not going to be that much noise.
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ Oh I know, truth is I enjoy modding ksp, ive probably tried to get mods that shouldnt work together working more than ive actually played ksp, I am the troubleshooting worst nightmare
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ and truth is RSSVE is broken in some ways as well, you just have to pick your poison
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ Ive seen them on earth as well, if you go to the north korea launch site youll see them
<queqiao-> ⟨mmeridian⟩ _clearly unfinished_ is a bit much. The reason Fox has to do so many workarounds is because RSS continues to use deprecated features
<queqiao-> ⟨mmeridian⟩ _clearly unfinished_ is a bit much. The reason Fox has to do so many workarounds is because RSS continues to use deprecated features
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Once again, I'm using Principia latest version with RSS-Reborn (Github) and I have no issues. If it crashes, it's due to something in your system.
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ * system / installation and it might not be related to RSS-Reborn at all.
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ where would I find the fatal file?
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ It does seem that people who have broken terrain all use RSS-Reborn. But since it appears that there are 57 varieties of RSS-reborn that people download from a google doc in a dark alley, I am not surprised that some of those are broken.
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ I know for a fact its principia causing the failure to load, not the rest of my mod pack
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ I find it strange the crusade of some devs in RP-1/Principia against new devs or moders just because it doens't fit their priorities. Not very welcoming to this community. RSS-Reborn is amazing and it should be praised, even in its current state. If offering support is the problem, then redirect the people to the right channels.
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ * devs/users
<queqiao-> ⟨Kirk (He/Him)⟩ RSS-Reborn should be a couple pull requests
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ So luckily the varieties have gone done than what it used to be, tldr theres two versions, github and google dogs
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ * docs, google docs being the deprecated version
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ That is no way to distribute software, but this is all veering off topic.
<queqiao-> ⟨Kirk (He/Him)⟩ I've seen this cycle before with EVO and 64k and every other RSSVE replacement. Someone decides to make a better version, then after a few years they get tired of supporting it, and then it gets abandoned and RSSVE stays outdated because nobody has bothered to touch it
<queqiao-> ⟨Kirk (He/Him)⟩ If they had just made a PR with their fixes to RSSVE instead then everyone could enjoy their fixes
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Let us get back to the regularly scheduled cats.
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ haha yeah, im sorry to have caused so much trouble, also just want to say thanks for a freaking amazing mod
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ And I’ll get you that fatal file, give me a bit as I need to reboot my game and read that link you sent
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Are you referring to TrueVolumetricClouds or to what?
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ * RSS-Reborn?
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ I don't know about TVC, but RSS-Reborn actually goes beyond what's already implemented in an already established mod with their "stable" and community discussed design, etc. Sometimes you need to make deep changes in a mod, which is the case of RSS-Reborn, in order to advance and apply the design you want. In other words, the changes are fundamental to the established mod. Not always it can have as a result 2 PR.
<queqiao-> However, my understanding is that RSS-Reborn led to some bugfixes changes in other mods. So the community has benefited from it as well.
<queqiao-> If this is about TVC, I agree that it should have been public to EVE repo from the start.
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ * several already established mods
<queqiao-> ⟨mmeridian⟩ we're yapping down in #rssve-dev so we don't clog this channel
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Anyway, this is offtopic.
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ Egg here is my fatal file
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ Thinking about it it might be RSS origin causing the crash, not RSS reborn, im in the RSS origin discord so lmk if it is and ill bring it to his attention
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<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ +(with RSS origin I am on the newest version XD)
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ How much RAM do you have in your system?
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ 32 gigs, with 64 gig page file ontop of it
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ * 48
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ "F0808 10:46:04.759294 14064 ksp_plugin_adapter.cs:733] Terrain system returned NaN for altitude at latitude 24.880980609395, longitude 135.580279303519 for celestial Moon"
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ welp that is RSS reborn, oh well, thank you so much for your effort
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<queqiao-> ⟨sichelgaita⟩ I spent several weekends debugging the frigging terrain problem in Principia, because I had no idea (1) if it was due to Principia or to another mod (2) which mod was the culprit. After spending a lot of time in back-and-forth with users who were affected, I started to suspect RSS-Reborn. I tried to install the mod using the installer and the first thing it did is break my setup. I had to report bugs to the person developing...
<queqiao-> ... the installer (they were very reactive). So "redirecting people to the right channels" is actually a ton of grunge work. Anyway, the bottom line I'll mark RSS-Reborn as incompatible with Principia in the wiki.
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ I'm not sure what issue you faced, but maybe I can help or maybe somebody can help you? Everything works on my side. Do you mean that you loaded a old save with RSS-Reborn ? Then that's not compatible without making changes to the save.
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Regarding the Wiki changes, I fully disagree there. But I don't wish to challenge somebody that doesn't want to be help. You do you.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Please read the message that was sent to you. There were bugs in the installer. They were reported, and fixed.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ But mostly, installing RSS-Reborn is not what we are here for.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ This is not our job, tech suport is not fun, installing random mods to figure out what is breaking is not fun.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Note that this is rather different from a user who is having to trudge through that but actually want to play with the bloody mod. We don’t. We don’t play. We haven’t played in years, or in sichelgaita’s case, ever.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Re marking RSS-Reborn as incompatible, I am not sure it is if one actually installs the thing as recommended (since we did that, and once we actually managed to install it, it worked fine as far as Principia was concerned, and apparently kaborl had the same experience). But then the proliferation of ad hoc ways of installing it is a serious problem.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ The text in https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/wiki/Installing,-reporting-bugs,-and-frequently-asked-questions#rss-reborn looks fine and accurately describes the mess.
<queqiao-> ⟨drobie22⟩ “Reactive” in a good way I hope
<queqiao-> ⟨sichelgaita⟩ This is getting ad-hominem. I'm out of here.
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ Yes, with my blue hat on, that comment, besides exhibiting poor reading comprehension, was not appropriate.
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ Not my intention. But I don't get your attacks to me.
<queqiao-> ⟨kaborl⟩ +I'm annoyed of this. Sad day.
<_whitenotifier-d4c1> [Principia] pleroy closed issue #4060: Crash on load due to the early terrain check of Klein - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/4060
<_whitenotifier-d4c1> [Principia] pleroy commented on issue #4060: Crash on load due to the early terrain check of Klein - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/4060#issuecomment-2276522395
<_whitenotifier-d4c1> [Principia] pleroy closed issue #4025: Crash when clicking on rebase - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/4025
<_whitenotifier-d4c1> [Principia] pleroy commented on issue #4025: Crash when clicking on rebase - https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/4025#issuecomment-2276522813
<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ In the interest of more clarity than is perhaps wise:
<queqiao-> — Telling people that they are crusading, or similar hyperbolæ, is generally not a good way to start a productive conversation.
<queqiao-> — An explanation of why things are more complicated than they may seem to the outside observer is not the same thing as a call for help. Sichelgaita’s message mentions several weekends of Principia debugging prior to suspecting RSS-Reborn, that is not something you can help with at all, and that is the main source of our annoyance with this whole issue. Sichelgaita mentions issues with the installer which we had to report and which were fixed,...
<queqiao-> ... this is not something that needs your help, as it is no longer an issue. None of these issues actually requiring anyone’s help, they are not phrased as such. That should not be seen as something that does require your help but where it is being rejected.
<queqiao-> ⟨drobie22⟩ Hijacking this for a sec. I hope the installer has helped, and I do try to be responsive with installer issues as much as I can. I have no stake in this convo other than supporting the installer, just wanted to say I’m fine being a point of contact with installer specific issues
<queqiao-> ⟨drobie22⟩ * to the group that I’m fine being a point of contact with installer specific issues moving forward
<raptop> I think the cats ate the bridge
<raptop> oh, good, it still works
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<queqiao-> ⟨egg⟩ It helped indeed, without the installer we would never have been able to try RSS-Reborn and to figure out that it _sometimes_ does work (and the statement in the wiki would be rather more pessimistic).
<queqiao-> As Al₂Me₆ was subtly hinting, « reactive » is a gallicism, sichelgaita meant « responsive »; thank you for your work here.
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ unless there are other people who have had problems, I would like to reaffirm I am using a deprecated version of rss reborn, if anyone is to blame here it is _me_ for using a deprecated version
<queqiao-> ⟨darth_dog⟩ * problems with the modern install,
<queqiao-> ⟨drobie22⟩ ❤️ thank you I was very confused lmao. Happy to help
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