egg changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Гельфонд. We currently target 1.8.1, 1.9.1, and 1.10.1. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly… | <egg> also 4e16 m * 2^-52 is uncomfortably large
<discord-> A​shnoom. — (I don't see no IP? (using Discord))
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Out of curisiosity: You can't 'create' maneouver node from Principia right? So that you can 'warp to manoever node?
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Which means you have to eye-ball the timer?
<discord-> D​amien (it/that). — It's on IRC
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — You can plan
<discord-> l​pg. — a flight plan creates a node, which one can warp to, yes
<discord-> l​pg. — MJ also now has support for executing principia maneuvers, but it doesn't work well with RO engines and their spool-up time
UmbralRaptor has joined #principia
UmbralRaptop has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
UmbralRaptor has quit [Client Quit]
UmbralRaptop has joined #principia
Mike` has quit [Ping timeout: 198 seconds]
Mike` has joined #principia
Webchat249 has quit [Quit: webchat.esper.net]
<discord-> B​utcher. — Principia has a warp to manoeuvre button.
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Does it require facility upgrades?
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Like the tracking station/mission control
<discord-> B​utcher. — Yes, it respects career limits, so you need whatever upgrades are normally required to have planning.
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg_ has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Ping timeout: 378 seconds]
egg|laptop|egg_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Ping timeout: 198 seconds]
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
egg|cell|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|cell|egg has quit [Ping timeout: 198 seconds]
egg|cell|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|cell|egg has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
egg|cell|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — What's the max amount of active crafts you should allow (landed, orbiting any celestials including Earth)?? I know lower=better, but if there's an upper limit around X before you start encountering issues, I'd really like to know what that number is.
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Game's crashing on startup again, and I suespect it has to do with that
<discord-> B​utcher. — Landed fine make such difference.
<discord-> B​utcher. — How many do you have?
<discord-> B​utcher. — Landed don't make such difference. (edited)
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — You mean landed craft have no negative impacts (which would make sense)
<discord-> s​iimav. — What's your save size?
<discord-> B​utcher. — Principia basically ignores landed craft.
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — I have somewhere around 7 relays, 5 landed (Moon), 35 orbit Earth, 5 debris.
<discord-> B​utcher. — 35 in earth orbit is quite a few.
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Does it calculate debris differently from craft?
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — My understanding is that no.
<discord-> B​utcher. — I don't believe so.
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Basically, whether you call it a relay or debris or whatever, Principia still plots the trajectory
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Hmm... that's an annoyingly small number to me
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Whatever you do, don't similate starlink constellation without a supercomputer
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — So what happens to a career if you remove Principia all of a sudden?
<discord-> B​utcher. — Bad things.
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — All orbiting crafts die, if I understand
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — If that's all that happens, I'm not too concerned.
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — What about the hack-gravity loophole to force conics?
<discord-> B​utcher. — I don't normally have a lot of leo craft.
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — So... what happens if I remove Principia? What are these bad things you speak of?
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — If all it does is remove active vehicles, I'm really not too bothered by that
<discord-> B​utcher. — I imagine it just kills all craft, that's probably the limit.
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Yeah, can't imagine it would do anything else
<discord-> B​utcher. — Back up your save and try it...
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — 👌
<discord-> l​pg. — I've seen it claimed that in fact nothing bad happens unless you get into multiple uninstall/reinstall cycle
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Mm... which makes sense
<discord-> B​uilderbast. — I uninstalled accudentally when updating once and all vessels were fine
<discord-> l​pg. — I've seen it claimed that in fact nothing bad happens unless you get into multiple uninstall/reinstall cycles (edited)
<discord-> B​uilderbast. — Just would use patched conics from where they left off
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Well, I'll uninstall it, boot up and we'll see what happens. Will keep you posted. Cheers and thanks!
<discord-> B​uilderbast. — Good luck!
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — @lpg have you somehow turned off emoji reactions to your responses??
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — The "no impact from debris" thing is CommNet-centric. Debris don't get the vessel module and will not be considered part of the network to evaluate.
<discord-> s​iimav. — > have you somehow turned off emoji reactions to your responses??
<discord-> s​iimav. — Means you're blocked by lpg
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — I installed principia in an active stock system career before, and had no issues other than very low orbits decaying
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — I blocked someone just so I could hide their screenshots and find someone else's... I should probably get around to unblocking them
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Let's assume lpg did the same thing
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — So... does this mean that having 30x satellites /= 30x debris??
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Removed Principia, game loaded right up. Every orbiting craft is still there.
<discord-> B​uilderbast. — Awesome! Glad to hear that
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Yep. Indeed. But hate to have to remove the mod... not sure if I want to keep it or not, now... but I hate to see it go
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Are you just temporarily removing?
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Because your history is so big
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — History so big??
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — I mean... I mean for this save to go on for a LONG time
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Before you had to prune the Principia flight history file, didn't you?
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — I did
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — That is what I was referring to
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — The last time this happened I had too many things in flight
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Right.
<discord-> l​pg. — performance in-game and save size are separate issues
<discord-> S​RFirefox. — Yeah, if 35 objects is too much, it would make playing a career safe a bit hard
<discord-> l​pg. — getting the save size down can be done without deleting vessels, but nothing can be done about the performance hit from having to compute more objects' paths other than removing the objects
<discord-> s​iimav. — Other than getting a Threadripper with 32 cores 😉
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Or increasing step size
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — This is what I have:
<discord-> s​iimav. — Isn't that only for predictions?
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Oh? How?
<discord-> S​RFirefox. — How multithreaded is principia and is it even a parallelizable problem
<discord-> l​pg. — completely
<discord-> S​RFirefox. — Awesome
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — \* Cries in 8 thread \*
<discord-> S​RFirefox. — Eat my 4 core i5 for lunch, principia
<discord-> l​pg. — it's painful. visit each vessel in turn and toggle Hack Gravity on and off in the alt-F12 cheat screen
<discord-> l​pg. — that makes principia discard the vessel's past history (among other things), which is where the save bloat comes from
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Ah yeah... I recall you saying that basically resets Principia's memory, right?
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — But, you'd have to periodically do that, no?
<discord-> l​pg. — yes
<discord-> B​uilderbast. — That vessel history only affects loading times right?
<discord-> l​pg. — and _saving_ times
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — It can also affect loading, period. That's been my issue. Twice now I've hit an upper limit and the save just refuses to load (crashes the game)
<discord-> l​pg. — I've never hit that sort of problem, but I keep the save size under control, so 🤷
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Well, the first time was a lessons learned for me, since this save is the first time I was using it. Now I had been keeping things trimmed down, but apparently not enough?
<discord-> l​pg. — for me Saving times was actually the bigger issue. A 10-second autosave pause at just the wrong time can be quite a pain
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — Oh yes, that's why I increase those intervals by 2 orders of magnitute. No more auto saves here!
<discord-> l​pg. — I did do that eventually
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — One of my better decisions
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — Strictly from a CommNet perspective, there is negligible difference between 30 vessels + 30 debris, and 30 vessels + 300 debris. The debris are simply not a part of the network of nodes that get updated.
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<discord-> C​alvin_Maclure. — So then, one way of eliminating the "too many crafts in orbit making the game crash" would be to set everyrhing as debris
<discord-> l​pg. — if you think commnet is crashing your game
<discord-> S​umguy. — is there no option in the principia menus to purge the history?
<discord-> l​pg. — if there were, why would anyone suggest anything else?
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Time to make a PR or suggestion?
<discord-> S​umguy. — sounds like it
<discord-> l​pg. — I guarantee you this is not the first time the idea has been suggested
<discord-> l​pg. — egg does not need suggestions on this particular topic
Jesin has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<discord-> B​utcher. — My save is 60 mb atm, starting to grow again.
<discord-> B​utcher. — The Moon keeps eating my craft which reduces it.
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Lazy Lagrange point stuff?
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Or Mascons?
<discord-> B​utcher. — Mascons.
<discord-> B​utcher. — I assume anyway, I leave stuff in lunar orbit and sometimes it;s not there when I next check...
Jesin has joined #principia
<discord-> B​utcher. — 13mb gone from one orbiter history...
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — How long was it in orbit? I havent done much long term crafts in principia while also paying attention to space
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — Maybe they will last longer in a frozen orbit if they werent already?
<discord-> B​utcher. — Hmm, about 1250 days in orbit of Mars.
UmbralRaptor has joined #principia
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — Ah neat, is that about the expected amount for a craft in the current version of principia?
UmbralRaptop has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — Either way if I did the math right, having a 100 of them for 80 years will lead to 30gbish, which actually gives me more confidence in my next install when I switch out my pc being able to do a long term install (assuming it is stored in ram like seemingly the rest of ksp lol)
<discord-> B​utcher. — It varies with the flight path of the probe.
UmbralRaptor has quit [Quit: Bye]
UmbralRaptop has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|cell|egg has quit [Ping timeout: 198 seconds]
SpleenStealer has joined #principia
egg|cell|egg has joined #principia
<discord-> e​gg. — for various dumb and technical reasons things will break when the save gets to 2 GiB or so I think
<discord-> e​gg. — (and things will get insufferably slow long before, because KSP does unidentified but stupidly slow things with large saves)
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Why is it so unoptimized?
<discord-> e​gg. — dunno, ask whoever wrote the KSP config node parser?
<discord-> S​tandecco. — there are some things mortal beings shall never comprehend
egg|cell|egg has quit [Ping timeout: 189 seconds]
egg|cell|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<discord-> S​umguy. — Stock saves don’t normally get that large, so they don’t have to optimize for large saves.
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — god, I wish rp-1 was based off of some open source project dedicated to rp-1 instead of ksp XD
<discord-> e​gg. — Eh, I don't care much for the space race, so such a project wouldn't have Principia anyway :-p
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — space race?
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — ah, are you referring to people playing career?
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — I don't really follow what other people are doing much, so if its a specific thing some people are doing I haven't a clue XD
<discord-> s​cimas. — Might be referring to the US - Russia space race period, which is also the period of RP-1 afaik
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — ah
<discord-> e​gg. — Yeah, that early stuff is not the most interesting from a mission/orbit design or fancy n-body stuff point of view
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — the biggest thing I hate about rp-1 apart from how unfit ksp is for rp-1, is how early the game starts, I want to just do orbital stuff from the get go lol
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Now I want to try to find the alternate start date thing
<discord-> e​gg. — I am somewhat confused as to how rp1 comes into play absent career
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — wdym?
<discord-> e​gg. — Isn't that just plain RO at that point
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — I like career mode but want to start at sputnik instead of having to do an early game grind lol, which is kinda super offtopic for this chat
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Someone made a 2000 start config
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — ooo nice, that's a bit late for my tastes tho
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Starting in 1960 would be good imo
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — yeah
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Anyways, off of egg's channel and into RP1
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — starting in some point between sputnik and apollo would be a bit more fun, yeah XD into #rp1-general ?
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Anyways, off of egg's channel and into #rp1-general (edited)
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — yee
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
<discord-> A​shnoom. —
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Has some nice informational images/gifs. However, there is one thing missing (I think?) The screen/setting of what the Manoeuver frame is set to
<discord-> A​shnoom. — It only says 'differs from plotting frame'
<discord-> e​gg. — it’s set to Kerbin-centred inertial I think
<discord-> e​gg. — see, in the first frame it doesn’t differ  :-p
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — not to interupt, but god, if that's the case that sucks :/
<discord-> e​gg. — you can truncate your existing histories
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Yeah, but that means I would be able to 'replicate' he following with those settings in mind:
<discord-> A​shnoom. — but I can only do that if I set the manoeuvre frame to moon-centred intertial
<discord-> A​shnoom. — (using RSS ofc.)
<discord-> e​gg. — that is an absurd choice of manœuvring frame
<discord-> A​shnoom. — "launching now, will do a few screen grabs once I am in spaacceeee *queues Portal 2 Wheatly's voice*
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — where you reffering to me or the lunar support you are giving?
<discord-> e​gg. — yes
<discord-> e​gg. — to you
<discord-> s​cimas. — Look at the pins in this channel. There is a link to start date configs all the way from 1956 to 2020. It's only for RSS though, it's not going to do anything special for RP-1.
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — ah, so, to maintain a relatively longer install with principia I will have to try to maintain it by keeping the size under 2gb by doing that I assume?
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Going through everything and using the hack gravity cheat on/off
<discord-> e​gg. — yeah, you get rid of old vessels, or if you need to keep an old thing around you go to it and hack/unhack gravity when it gets too long
<discord-> B​utcher. — I imagine it would take several minutes to save at 2gb.
<discord-> e​gg. — (and get rid of debris, they are vessels)
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Does the history length setting affect the history saved, or merely the history loaded/displayed?
<discord-> e​gg. — only displayed
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Is the exosphere-based orbital decay mod I have bad to use with Principia?
<discord-> e​gg. — it won’t do anything
<discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — when I set up the next install I am going to have to cheat in an absurd amount of crafts with antennas in different orbits, and set it to timewarp for a while to stresstest it and see how bad it gets and how often I will need to maintain things if I try abusing it to see the limits lol
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — it simulates debris become micrometeorites that will decay though
<discord-> e​gg. — I trust that you have read the FAQ
<discord-> e​gg. — and in particular its section on compatibility with other mods, viz. <https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/wiki/Installing,-reporting-bugs,-and-frequently-asked-questions#compatibility-with-other-mods>
<discord-> e​gg. — and therefore that you know that, with Principia, nothing can decay unless it does so solely under the influence of gravity
<discord-> e​gg. — 🥚🌩️