00:00 <discord-> e​gg. — and in particular its section on compatibility with other mods, *viz.* <https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/wiki/Installing,-reporting-bugs,-and-frequently-asked-questions#compatibility-with-other-mods> (edited)

00:01 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — The micrometeorites are not simulated as vessels, but seperately within the mod

00:02 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Debris vessels merely "spawn" them

00:08 <discord-> e​gg. — ok so it’s not an orbital decay mod ?

00:08 <discord-> e​gg. — I don’t know how every mod out there works nor how it interacts with Principia, and the exercise gets trickier if you don’t even say which mod this is

00:10 <discord-> e​gg. — @Sky UwU we may have a plan of sorts re. the save size issue https://discord.com/channels/319857228905447436/480397772248580098/775921721525927956

00:11 <discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — ooo neat

00:11 <discord-> e​gg. — (the attempts at getting a more compact representation have been met with exciting difficulties in numerical analysis involving computing the Cholesky decomposition of extraordinarily-poorly conditioned matrices)

00:12 <discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — I imagine something like that would make it a bit longer lasting of a career with less maintenance? honestly, I am very curious how well this will work and how stable and fast I can get my next install to be with things like principia, graphics mods, ect. slightly bloating it up lol

00:16 <discord-> e​gg. — Re. the 2000s (or even late 60s) career stuff, I should probably poke <https://github.com/Kerbalism/KerbalismContracts/wiki/Design> some more (and poke @Sir Mortimer with it), besides the start date and the tech the stock approach to career is missing out on a lot of things that get interesting once you can have serious satellite programmes

00:16 <discord-> e​gg. — Re. the 2000s (or even late 60s) career stuff, I should probably poke <https://github.com/Kerbalism/KerbalismContracts/wiki/Design> some more (and poke @Sir Mortimer with it), besides the start date and the tech, the stock approach to career is missing out on a lot of things that get interesting once you can have serious satellite programmes (edited)

00:28 <discord-> A​shnoom. — Got the plotting thing 'worked out, a bit': first lunar flyby:

00:28 <discord-> A​shnoom. — https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480397772248580098/790375071830769664/unknown.png

00:29 <discord-> A​shnoom. — Also, question. The burn time indicated by Principia with the current active engines. Where does it get its information from? Because it was completely wrong for my current vessel. Principia said I had to burn for 4 minutes+. Yet I only had fuel for 1m30, (which was about 3200dV)

00:46 <discord-> l​pg. — the current active engines, their flow rate, and the current vessel mass

00:46 <discord-> l​pg. — if you plot before staging, all bets are off

00:49 <discord-> e​gg. — > Principia said I had to burn for 4 minutes+. Yet I only had fuel for 1m30

00:49 <discord-> e​gg. — That’s not Principia’s problem ; were you to burn for 4 minutes you would be on the planned trajectory, if it turns out that your vessel is not entirely made of fuel then you may want to check how much fuel you have

00:50 <discord-> e​gg. — (and yes, after staging you must rebase)

00:53 <raptop> Principia, or git?

00:53 <discord-> A​shnoom. — AHh, oké. Got it! I had two stages between the 'final' stage. Still in the very early stages of doing trans-lunar stuff :-). I have to use the RCS on my upper stage, as my TLI stage is unguided :-).

01:11 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/154601-19x-kessler-syndrome-14-19022020/

01:11 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Is what I have; it ***can*** implement orbital decay, but it still has micrometeorites spawned which supposedly decay (not as vessels I think, unless they made it linked to their source vessel).

01:29 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — So orbital decay done poorly but in a Principia friendly way: what is the correct method to apply a force to a vessel or ask Principia to do so? Say, a force in the anti-prograde direction to simulate atmospheric drag at altitudes above where KSP defines atmosphere and applies drag via the FlightIntegrator for loaded vessels?

01:32 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Cheat hack gravity and then do that

01:32 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Cheat hack gravity and then do it (edited)

01:34 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Cheat hack gravity and then apply the force (edited)

01:35 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — No. I'm attempting not to invoke eggwrath by asking how to let Principia apply a force, since it has the authoritative answer to vessel position. Not screw with it and tell it to stand aside regularly.

02:05 <SpleenStealer> ok so basically

02:06 <SpleenStealer> i tried out the kessler syndrome mod

02:06 <SpleenStealer> and

02:06 <SpleenStealer> first eva, jeb get hit by a micrometeoriod and dies

02:07 <SpleenStealer> there was only 22 pieces of debris in orbit

02:07 <discord-> S​kylar (She/Her). — imagine getting snipe shotted by a micrometeorite irl

02:19 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Don't feel bad. My spaceplane got hit and proceeded to burn up like Challenger... that was the first crewed orbit

02:19 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Don't feel ~~bad~~ unlucky. My spaceplane got hit and proceeded to burn up like Challenger... that was the first crewed orbit (edited)

02:23 <SpleenStealer> im not sad, just surprised lmao

02:27 <SpleenStealer> bruh

02:27 <SpleenStealer> i got a 214% chance of debris clouds for a few seconds

02:32 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Chance is a bit of a misnomer... It is the number of active debris required for the odds of a full Kessler Syndrome cloud to be 100 %

02:41 <SpleenStealer> yeah

02:41 <SpleenStealer> but my craft survived

02:41 <SpleenStealer> somehow

09:21 <discord-> e​gg. — Honestly the reasonable way to do this would likely be for Principia to do it (maybe supplying parameters for a very basic aerodynamic model via an API).

10:39 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — Principia handling orbital decay as of the next release confirmed

10:47 <discord-> S​tandecco. — spread the rumor on the forums, guys, quick!

10:51 <discord-> s​iimav. — Principia with patched conics when?

10:52 <discord-> S​tandecco. — analytic n-body solution in the next release

11:00 <discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — not long until Principia is its own standalone game

13:31 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — Ksp is just a front end for principia

13:40 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — That's fine for forces Principia wants to calculate. Principia wants to calculate gravity. It doesn't want to calculate engine thrust [specified], solar sails [TBD], lift or drag in atmosphere [FlightIntegrator and its plugins' job], or forces from EM.

13:40 <discord-> D​RVeyl. —

13:40 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — (I'm in a silly mood. I imagine a station-sized coilgun/mass driver, but that's really just a fancy re-attachable decoupler, and can't imagine why it should work unloaded. However, if the payload (vessel) carried a charge instead of just the launcher/sling, I might want it deflecting as it moves through planet magnetic fields. Or maybe I just want to litter space with charged metal ping-pong bal

13:40 <discord-> D​RVeyl. —

13:40 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — Point is, I don't think Principia really cares what sane or silly thing I want to do, but it very much cares about the method. The issue with Persistent Thrust is about implementation, not concept. With Principia, the Orbit class is a product, not a data source, so don't change it and expect results. Entirely fair, but I think you're better off with describing how something should interact with

13:40 <discord-> D​RVeyl. —

13:40 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — Am I misunderstanding the central issue? Or is it more about things like completely invalidating flight planning [you can't plan for forces from sources you don't control]?

13:42 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — That's fine for forces Principia wants to calculate. Principia wants to calculate gravity. It doesn't want to calculate engine thrust [specified], solar sails [TBD], lift or drag in atmosphere [FlightIntegrator and its plugins' job], or forces from EM.

13:42 <discord-> D​RVeyl. —

13:42 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — (I'm in a silly mood. I imagine a station-sized coilgun/mass driver, but that's really just a fancy re-attachable decoupler, and can't imagine why it should work unloaded. However, if the payload (vessel) carried a charge instead of just the launcher/sling, I might want it deflecting as it moves through planet magnetic fields. Or maybe I just want to litter space with charged metal ping-pong bal

13:42 <discord-> D​RVeyl. —

13:42 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — Point is, I don't think Principia really cares what sane or silly thing I want to do, but it very much cares about the method. The issue with Persistent Thrust is about implementation, not concept. With Principia, the Orbit class is a product, not a data source, so don't change it and expect results. Entirely fair, but I think you're better off with describing how something should interact with

13:42 <discord-> D​RVeyl. —

13:42 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — Am I misunderstanding the central issue? Or is it more about things like completely invalidating flight planning [you can't plan for forces from sources you don't control] or dealing with the integration process for handling time warp [external source specifies a force, but when and where does it apply?] (edited)

13:42 <discord-> e​gg. — @DRVeyl I think you are misunderstanding the central issue.

13:43 <discord-> e​gg. — You cannot, from within Principia, compute forces that depend on the state of things at times that will never be visible to the game.

13:43 <discord-> e​gg. — You cannot, from outside Principia, compute forces that depend on the state of things at times that will never be visible to the game. (edited)

13:43 <discord-> e​gg. — Therefore you cannot apply forces outside timewarp in uncontrolled ways

13:43 <discord-> e​gg. — Therefore you cannot apply forces outside timewarp in uncontrolled ways. (edited)

13:43 <discord-> e​gg. — Therefore you cannot apply forces in timewarp in uncontrolled ways. (edited)

13:45 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — Ok. I finally caught on, just a bit too late.

13:45 <discord-> e​gg. — outside timewarp, you can compute the right-hand side of your differential equation using the variables that are available to you in the game; in timewarp, those variables are not available to you at a useful resolution; only Principia knows them, so the RHS must computed be in actual RHS of the actual integrator.

13:46 <discord-> e​gg. — This doesn’t mean that there isn’t room for an API to exist, but it essentially has to be parametric : define a drag model, define an SRP model, and we’ll integrate it

13:47 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — I suppose this also ties to some conversations between you and SM, for Kerbalism science if I recall correctly, about if/how Principia could provide a short term predictive path description -- or I suppose history since the last step as well.

13:48 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — I suppose this also ties to some conversations between you and SM, for Kerbalism science if I recall correctly, about if/how Principia could provide a short term predictive ephemeris -- or I suppose history since the last step as well. (edited)

13:48 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — I suppose this also ties to some conversations between you and SM, for Kerbalism science if I recall correctly, about if/how Principia could provide a short term predictive ephemeris [-ides?] -- or I suppose history since the last step as well. (edited)

13:48 <discord-> e​gg. — yeah, though in that direction it is easier, because predicting the past is easier than predicting the future :D

13:48 <discord-> e​gg. — for Kerbalism I explicitly provided past trajectories, not future ones

13:49 <discord-> D​RVeyl. — Oh, I didn't know you got that working. 🙂

13:50 <discord-> e​gg. — https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/wiki/Interface-for-other-KSP-mods#vesselgetposition

17:24 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — has anyone tried compiling for 1.11.0?

17:25 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — I _think_ I followed the instructions right, but am getting some errors:

17:26 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480397772248580098/790631160022827058/unknown.png

17:28 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — actually i think I know what's up with that

17:28 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — it's because I updated the `KSP_VERSION...` variable

17:30 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — not sure about the failure in the not_null_test yet

17:34 <discord-> B​utcher. — That probably means you have a differnet version of VS than egg.

17:34 <discord-> B​utcher. — That probably means you have a different version of VS than egg. (edited)

17:35 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — I'm on 16.8.3, I think I saw something where it was looking for 16.8.1

17:35 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — considering that's just a test file, I might be ok since I think I cleared up the other errors

17:36 <discord-> B​utcher. — Yes, it usually just means adding another version to the big version list in that file.

17:37 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — is that the list of _MSC_FULL_VERs?

17:38 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — things like `192'729'111`

17:39 <discord-> B​utcher. — Yes.

17:39 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — I have no idea what I would even add there

17:50 <discord-> B​utcher. — I did this:

17:50 <discord-> B​utcher. — https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480397772248580098/790637341055647765/unknown.png

17:51 <discord-> r​sparkyc. — I'll have to try that

21:51 <discord-> A​gustinCaniglia. — does principia work in stock 1.11?

21:52 <discord-> A​gustinCaniglia. — or does anyone have a compiled unofficial