00:03 <discord-> B​utcher. — I am usually within a few percent of the planned transfer at worst.

00:04 <discord-> B​utcher. — You have to account for twp planning for an equatorial orbit which means it might not give an optimal window of you're launching from high latitude.

01:59 <discord-> M​arsh. — Here's my process: Figure out launch date, make a temp save, fast forward to that date, hyperedit a craft in orbit to your launch latitude and launch orbit, have mechjeb create a node, mess with the LAN until the delta v is acceptable, add whatever safety margin you want on that delta v. Load previous save, put the rocket on the pad at least 24 hours before the launch time, when within 24 hours, hav

02:00 <discord-> M​arsh. — Here's my process: Figure out launch date, make a temp save, fast forward to that date, hyperedit a craft in orbit to your launch latitude and launch orbit, have mechjeb create a node, mess with the LAN until the delta v is acceptable, add whatever safety margin you want on that delta v. Load previous save, put the rocket on the pad at least 24 hours before the launch time, when within 24 hours, hav

07:16 <discord-> B​utcher. — I plan launch date, roll out rocket, use magic script. Fin.

11:31 <discord-> e​gg. — That seems more straightforward

12:51 <discord-> B​utcher. — Magic script is essentially: solve Lambert's problem to find transfer orbit, select suitable LAN such that ejecting from the parking orbit to the computed transfer orbit is a tangent burn.

21:21 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — So on a scale of 1-10, how hard is it to learn principia as someone who is a solid ksp player, but has very little understanding of true orbital mechanics? I'm really interested in starting a save with it, but I want to know roughly what I'm getting into in terms of learning curve

21:26 <discord-> B​utcher. — 10.

21:29 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — And I guess the only way to properly learn and understand it is to pick up a book? Too much to teach in a tutorial series?

21:31 <raptop> It occures to me that https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-and-astronautics/16-346-astrodynamics-fall-2008/index.htm has some video >_>

21:35 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — "Graduate level"

21:35 <discord-> c​ptmiche. —

21:35 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Oof.

21:38 <raptop> (though I guess lagrangians and hamiltonians are also useful)

21:41 <discord-> s​ichelgaita. — It goes to 11 😉 Seriously, I don't think it fair to tell people that they need to read graduate-level books to play with Principia. You can get started and have some fun and discover stuff along the way. Sure, at the beginning you'll use ridiculous amounts of Δv, have trouble with launch windows and have probes eaten up by mascons, but that's the fun of it. New users should just make s

21:42 <discord-> B​utcher. — I have read zero books for learning Principia. 😆

21:46 <raptop> More seriously, I'd go with the difficulty could be anywhere between 1 and 10 depending on the person, their UI interactions, etc

21:47 <discord-> B​utcher. — I said 10 because some understanding of orbital mechanics is required.

21:47 <discord-> B​utcher. — Or you can just massively overbuild everything I guess.

21:51 <discord-> e​gg. — it’s hard to be a solid KSP player and truly have no understanding of orbital mechanics. However being a solid KSP player does come with the inconvenient that you will need to unlearn some stock things—much like, when starting to play with FAR, you need to stop using oversimplified rules of thumbs about centres of lift etc.

21:51 <discord-> e​gg. — it’s hard to be a solid KSP player and truly have no understanding of orbital mechanics. However being a solid KSP player does come with the inconvenient that you will need to unlearn some stock things—much like, when starting to play with FAR, you need to stop using oversimplified rules of thumb about centres of lift etc. (edited)

22:04 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — If you can already eyeball most maneuvers, you'll be fine

22:10 <discord-> l​amont. — if you're a decent stock KSP player though you should have some at least undergrad understanding of orbital mechanics

22:10 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] pleroy opened pull request #2868: Check that the version of the binary matches that of the journal - https://git.io/JtO4Y

22:11 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Too bad the credit doesn't transfer

22:12 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] pleroy edited pull request #2868: Check that the version of the binary matches that of the journal - https://git.io/JtO4Y

22:14 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] eggrobin reviewed pull request #2868 commit - https://git.io/JtO40

22:17 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 

22:17 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4768/

22:17 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #2868: Check that the version of the binary matches that of the journal - https://git.io/JtO4Y

22:18 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #2868: Check that the version of the binary matches that of the journal - https://git.io/JtO4Y

22:19 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 

22:19 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] pleroy reviewed pull request #2868 commit - https://git.io/JtO4p

22:40 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — the hardest part is getting used to the UI, and using different reference frames. Once you get that down it's so good

22:40 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — learn from our mistakes though and learn all of its quirks in stock or non-RO RSS first

22:41 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — speedrun all the major milestones without having to deal with all the RO stuff like throttling, ignitions etc

22:41 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — then bring the skills back to RO

22:41 <discord-> e​gg. — or at least non-career RO, and from Kourou

22:41 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — RSS/SMURFF is perfect

22:41 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — could do regular stock before that if you also don;t want to have to deal with lunar inclinations/mascons etc and earth egginess

22:42 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — could do regular stock before that if you also don't want to have to deal with lunar inclinations/mascons etc and earth egginess (edited)

22:42 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — could do regular stock before that if you also don't want to have to deal with lunar inclination/mascons etc and earth egginess (edited)

22:44 <discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — Honestly I would say RO with career (RP-1) is easier, because it introduces concepts gradually rather than all at once

22:44 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4768/

22:44 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4769/

22:44 <discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — e.g. you get experience with attaining orbit, going to the Moon before planning complex planetary flybys

22:45 <discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — e.g. you get experience with attaining orbit, going to the Moon before planning complex planetary flybys and rendezvouses (edited)

22:47 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Solid ksp player with little understanding of *real* orbital mechanics. As in, "how real orbital mechanics are different from what KSP models"

22:47 <raptop> eg: Where patched conics fail?

22:49 <discord-> e​gg. — @cptmiche OK so this is going to depend where you are; you have the obvious three-body things (Lagrange points and the like) but unless you seek them they are not your primary concern; in RSS the more immediate things are precession and the lunar mascons

22:49 <discord-> B​utcher. — Playing from kourou is a good idea as a first play.

22:50 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Ballistic capture for early lunar missions is sometimes required though

22:50 <discord-> e​gg. — @Paculino I hope it is not required, since it is far more recent than early lunar exploration in real life

22:51 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Precession and lunar mascons. Iooked up a bit about precession when it was mentioned earlier this week, but I've never heard of mascons.

22:51 <raptop> Let's see... LADEE did a ballistic capture IIRC, but that was in 2013

22:51 <discord-> e​gg. — yeah

22:51 <discord-> e​gg. — but that’s not the sixties

22:51 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Okay, I just used it for the first two lunar missions I did because I had low delta-v

22:52 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Because the du was low and the transfer stage went out early, so I had to use the RCS meant for circularization

22:52 <raptop> nice

22:52 <discord-> e​gg. — Well, if you have RSS+Principia at hand, put something in lunar orbit and watch

22:52 <discord-> e​gg. — :D

22:52 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Low lunar orbit

22:53 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Hmmm. Would it be cool to make a poll for what everyone thinks is the best way to introduce a new principia player to it?

22:53 <discord-> e​gg. — (low lunar orbit, preferably, yes)

22:53 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Very high lunar shows lagrange points, I guess

22:53 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Is that what prevents stable lunar orbits?

22:53 <discord-> e​gg. — some lunar orbits are stable! but by and large, the moon likes eating your probes, yes

22:53 <raptop> ^

22:54 <raptop> eg: LRO is in one of the "frozen orbits"

22:54 <discord-> e​gg. — 🌚 omnomnom

22:54 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — for learning the UI, which is your first step, minimise any potential roadblocks. If you're good at KSP, install principia on a regular stock install (ie not RSS) and speedrun orbit, rendezvous, moon missions, landing, interplanetary

22:54 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — once you've got those down you're most of the way there

22:55 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — I rendezvoused before principia, and surface docked before it, but never orbital docked until I had it

22:55 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — everything after that is niche stuff like lagrange points, precessing orbits etc

22:55 <discord-> e​gg. — I’d recomend a second run of non-career RSS to get used to precession and mascons (those are hard to see if getting into orbit is a challenge)

22:56 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — ^

22:56 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Is there any way to view them in game like viewing biome maps with the cheat menu?

22:56 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — viewing what?

22:56 <discord-> e​gg. — nope, and that, wouldn’t help you much anyway

22:56 <discord-> e​gg. — it’s not like the gravity anomaly maps tell you how your orbit is going to be perturbed

22:57 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — I thought that if you were using surface-fixed reference frame you could see what inclination would be worst

22:57 <discord-> e​gg. — nope

22:57 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Why speedrun it?

22:57 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — not literally speedrunning, we mean get used to how all the major milestones work

22:58 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Ohh

22:58 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Gotchaa

22:58 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — it might take you hours to learn how to get to orbit, go to a moon and possibly land in RSS/RO

22:58 <discord-> e​gg. — yeah, just going (relatively quickly because you know the overall idea) through the basics

22:58 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — you can do it in minutes in stock

22:58 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Makes complete sense

22:58 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — then bring those skills back to RO

22:58 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Now I can't wait to get home and give it a go

22:58 <discord-> e​gg. — nope, but on the other hand there is a pinned paper that will tell you that

22:59 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Any essential mods on top of stock + principia?

22:59 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — MJ2? Precise node?

22:59 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — I didn't do that, so when I eventually decided to set up a practice install on stock, and later on RSS/SMURFF I learned a lot of stuff that I hadn't been able to practice due to being gated behind RO/RP-1 progression

22:59 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — I am aware

22:59 <discord-> B​utcher. — Heh I jumped straight into rp-1 with principia.

22:59 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — maybe, no

22:59 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — I use MJ only for ascent to orbit but others use it for other stuff too

23:00 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — no need for precise node as principia doesn't use stock nodes

23:00 <discord-> B​utcher. — Principia has its own nodes.

23:03 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Ok so just the two

23:03 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — be aware, when you first load the game the solar system will look really messed up

23:04 <raptop> ＲＥＴＩＣＵＬＡＴＩＮＧ　ＥＰＩＣＹＣＬＥＳ

23:04 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — it's just that you're looking at the solar system, as shown in the default reference frame which I believe is earth centered inertial (@egg correct me if I'm wrong)

23:04 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — change it to sun centered inertial and it'll look normal

23:05 <discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — You might also want to change the length and precision to get a better view

23:05 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Will do

23:05 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — play with the reference frames and you'll get a feel for it

23:06 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — and yeah, steps and tolerance affect the length and precision of the projected trajectory for your craft and bodies

23:09 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/4769/

23:10 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — Is that like a memory optimization thing?

23:10 <discord-> c​ptmiche. — (RAM)

23:11 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — max steps min tolerance is a good way to melt your cpu

23:11 <discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — no, it's just how accurate Principia draws

23:11 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — an interplanetary mission planned with cm level precision is overkill

23:11 <discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — more steps = longer path = more integration

23:12 <discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — in general, you should use higher precision around planets, lower precision cruising around interplanetary space

23:12 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — yeah, precision is important when doing orbital rendezvous

23:12 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — less so when a flyby only needs to be kilometres level accurate#

23:12 <discord-> D​amien (it/that). — less so when a flyby only needs to be kilometres level accurate (edited)

23:22 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] pleroy closed issue #2863: The journal for #2853 fails when replaying a DeleteInterchange message - https://git.io/JtTdB

23:22 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] pleroy pushed 3 commits to master [+0/-0/±5] https://git.io/JtOEY

23:22 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] pleroy b9c2bf7 - Check that the version of the binary matches that of the journal.

23:22 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] pleroy cb897bc - 0

23:22 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] pleroy c046e53 - Merge pull request #2868 from pleroy/2863 Check that the version of the binary matches that of the journal

23:22 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] pleroy closed pull request #2868: Check that the version of the binary matches that of the journal - https://git.io/JtO4Y

23:22 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] Pending. queued - https://dev.azure.com/mockingbirdnest/445d7b9d-0318-42e3-857f-b69d40b1ed1b/_build/results?buildId=1296

23:22 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] Pending. queued - https://dev.azure.com/mockingbirdnest/445d7b9d-0318-42e3-857f-b69d40b1ed1b/_build/results?buildId=1297

23:22 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] Pending. in progress - https://dev.azure.com/mockingbirdnest/445d7b9d-0318-42e3-857f-b69d40b1ed1b/_build/results?buildId=1296

23:22 <_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] Pending. in progress - https://dev.azure.com/mockingbirdnest/445d7b9d-0318-42e3-857f-b69d40b1ed1b/_build/results?buildId=1297