egg changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Germain. We currently target 1.8.1, 1.9.1, 1.10.1, and 1.11.0. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly… | <egg> also 4e16 m * 2^-52 is uncomfortably large
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<_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] JoeKL starred Principia - https://git.io/Jtq5a
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<_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] daantimmer commented on issue #2867: Hard CTD when using the slider to change the tangent after modifying the initial time using its slider. - https://git.io/JtmGJ
<_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] daantimmer commented on issue #2867: Hard CTD when using the slider to change the tangent after modifying the initial time using its slider. - https://git.io/JtmGI
<_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] daantimmer edited a comment on issue #2867: Hard CTD when using the slider to change the tangent after modifying the initial time using its slider. - https://git.io/JtmGJ
<_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] daantimmer edited a comment on issue #2867: Hard CTD when using the slider to change the tangent after modifying the initial time using its slider. - https://git.io/JtmGI
<discord-> A​shnoom. — I am just churning out these crashes like nothing, lol
<discord-> e​gg. — try making a journal? that tends to help with fixing issues
<discord-> A​shnoom. — yeah. i just toggled it on 🙂
<discord-> A​shnoom. — it is random, but the steps are the same
<discord-> A​shnoom. — so sometimes it happens, sometimes it does not. So perhaps there is some steps before that are important IDK yet 🙂
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — Keep in mind that Journaling creates *huge* files
<discord-> A​shnoom. — I see, 4GB so far xD
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — I think it also gets disabled on scene change (or something similar) so remember to enable it when you need
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<_whitenotifier-8975> [Principia] StoneBlue forked the repository - https://git.io/JtmVe
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<discord-> c​ptmiche. — Moar questions from Miche!
<discord-> c​ptmiche. —
<discord-> c​ptmiche. — Why is it not possible to launch into the plane of the moon in principia/RL?
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — I assume you mean from florida; because most of the time the moon is in a lower inclination
<raptop> ^though I want to say that on some occasions, you can?
<raptop> Baikonur or Plesetsk are in the "never" zone, though
<raptop> s/or/and/
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — Conveniantly one of the times where you could launch into the plane of the moon was in 1969
<discord-> B​utcher. — I'm at Mahia, well into the never zone.
<discord-> c​ptmiche. — So the stock system doesn't represent that the moon has a variable inclination?
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — No
* raptop blinks
<discord-> c​ptmiche. — Sorry if that was a stupid question
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — It's not, I learned when I first started to use Principia. It's probably one of the things that most people get surprised by
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — It's not, I learned that when I first started to use Principia. It's probably one of the things that most people get surprised by (edited)
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — But, if you time the launch right, you don't need to match inclination
<discord-> c​ptmiche. — So I guess my smarter question would be: what does the standard system not do that causes you to be able to launch into the plane of the moon so often?
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Everything is on rails
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — And no axial tilt or precession
<raptop> Off-plane intercepts are good
<raptop> Yeah, stock-ish KSP is bad at axial tilt
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — Unless you are docking
<raptop> It's just a 4 km/s hard dock, what's the big deal?
<discord-> c​ptmiche. — I think I understand what you guys mean
<discord-> P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they). — cold welding aluminium... in space
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<discord-> c​ptmiche. — Oh yeah, I think I remember seeing or hearing someone talking about how hard it is/was to deal with axial tilt in KSP and how moon orbits work with the stock physocs
<discord-> M​arsh. — Also with stock physics the moons inclination is at its most optimal, making a launch to the moons inclination possible from Florida. In general, you can only match inclinations with something greater than yours. Otherwise you’ll have to time your LAN. Delta v doesn’t change much... just have to fly differently than stock KSP physics taught you
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Can someone explain what they mean (with pictures?) What it means to "launch to the correct LAN". I've never been able to understand what is meant by that
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — This picture from Wikipedia might be useful, LAN can be thought of as the angle between a reference direction (say towards the sun) and the point at which you cross the equator going north
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — @Ashnoom In that pic its the angel Omega
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — @Ashnoom In that pic its the angle Omega (edited)
<discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — more specifically the capital one, not the small one
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — Indeed, Ω
<discord-> M​arsh. — It’s the alignment of the AN. Basically where you go up and down in the orbit’s inclination. So for say, going to the moon, you want your orbit aligned so that your trajectory works out. When you can match inclination with the moon, you can essentially TLI any time you want and it’ll be aligned. If you cannot, then you need a specific LAN to produce the right trajectory, and it’s only ideal
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Ahh, so, for example using KER, you use the "relative time to AN/DN" to initiate the launch
<discord-> A​shnoom. — (and then also launch, if possible, to the correct inclination)
<discord-> M​arsh. — Yes and no. The ideal LAN isn’t necessarily at that point
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Ok, that is confusing 😄
<discord-> M​arsh. — Try using hyper edit and changing the lan, it’ll probably make a lot more sense
<discord-> A​shnoom. — doe HE work with Principia?
<discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — not recommended
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — Yes, if you toggle hack gravity
<discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — like, at all
<discord-> M​arsh. — Hack gravity then yes
<discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — oh yeah, hack gravity disables Principia n-body
<discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — the problem is you lose all history for the vessel
<discord-> M​arsh. — With stock KSP physics you get used to “launch into this orbit” which makes things very easy. But in principia, you need to launch to the correct LAN. One way of looking at it is, what time of day you launch at. 24 hours of the day gives you your 360 degrees of LAN
<discord-> M​arsh. — You can use hyper edit with mechjeb to play around with the lan to find the ideal launch
<discord-> A​shnoom. — what _is_ the 'ideal' launch. How do you know it is ideal?
<discord-> M​arsh. — But that is only good for the time you check it, so basically put the rocket on the pad on the *day* you want to launch, then hyper edit something to find the correct LAN, which will tell you what *time of day* to launch
<discord-> M​arsh. — Whatever metric you use :3
<discord-> A​shnoom. — if I would be an AI, and you have to backpropagate the 'the outcome is OK or NOK' how do you decide OK//NOK?
<discord-> M​arsh. — Well ideal is lowest delta v, but ok and nok would be if the vehicle has the required delta v for the mission
<discord-> M​arsh. — It depends on how far you want to take it. The more time you spend, the less you’ll get back in gains
<discord-> M​arsh. — For me if I get to ones of delta v, I call it quits. That’s plenty close, as I never launch things with margins that close
<discord-> M​arsh. — It took a few nights of hitting my head trying to get an efficient tli with principia, but when I finally got it with only prograde delta v... 😎
<discord-> A​shnoom. — I've been doing only prograde TLI's since I switched to Principia. BUt I use MJ to 'launch to the plane of the moon'. And from there on it is a simple prograde burn.
<discord-> A​shnoom. — But I've not managed to do that with Venus/Mars or Mercury.
<discord-> A​shnoom. — I've been doing only prograde TLI's since I switched to Principia. BUt I use MJ to 'launch to the plane of the moon'. And from there on it is a simple ~~prograde~~ tangent? burn. (edited)
<discord-> M​arsh. — Where are you launching from?
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Kourou
<discord-> M​arsh. — That’s lower than the moons inclination, you can just launch to the moons inclination and then tli at any time
<discord-> A​shnoom. — That's what I said 😉
<discord-> A​shnoom. — but venus/mars/etc I've had troubles with so far
<discord-> M​arsh. — Most launch sites do not have this option, which requires careful launch timing
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — For interplanetary, you might have some luck with changing the reference frame to the destination's fourth option
<discord-> A​shnoom. — I am just trying to understand with what people mean with "don't launch to plane, launch to correct LAN"
<discord-> A​shnoom. — But the latter is rarely explained 🙂
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — Indeed, I have no idea what that means in terms of interplanetary either
<discord-> M​arsh. — It’s because everything is orbiting in a static disk, so it’s rarely ideal to launch that way. What’s more important is launching at the correct time, which is similar in principal to launching into the correct lan
<discord-> M​arsh. — It’s because everything isnt orbiting in a static disk, so it’s rarely ideal to launch that way. What’s more important is launching at the correct time, which is similar in principal to launching into the correct lan (edited)
<discord-> B​utcher. — You need to launch to an orbit with a LAN that allows you to eject into a transfer orbit that meets the target planet is the gist.
<discord-> W​ireknight. — is this expected behaviour? aren't they supposed to be, like, in a plane? tell me what i broke.
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — I would suggest reading https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/wiki/Concepts
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — In short; you need to change the reference frame to suite your needs
<discord-> W​ireknight. — i (think i) understand that. but having sun-centered, i would have expected the orbits to be in the same plane or at least intersecting "in front" of the sun if the have different tilt
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<discord-> S​tonesmile. — There is a difference between sun centered surface centered and the other option
<discord-> e​gg. — the sun spins
<discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — the sun rotates and has an axial tilt
<discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — because your reference plane is rotating around an axis that is not normal to the ecliptic, or whatever, the planets will appear to not be moving in a flat-ish plane
<discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — if the sun rotated in plane with the planets, the planets would be in in-plane paths.
<discord-> (​experimentalshells?). — but why the heck are you using sun-centered surface-fixed anyway?
<discord-> W​ireknight. — i'm afraid i can't answer that in a satisfying way :b ... i understood your explanation though, thanks, much appreciated
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<discord-> A​shnoom. — What is a good transfer phase angle for Venus and Mars if I may ask? Or is that a too general of a question and difficult to answer?
<discord-> A​shnoom. — (from earth)
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — You can use Transfer Window Planner or MJ to get an estimate of the launch date, it's good enough to use
<discord-> A​shnoom. — I tried that. But I was struggling to find a good encounter without a mid course correction burn of > 500dV. The encounters I could get were over 2Gm.
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Where MJ transfer thing would tell me I would need roughly 3600dV. I was nowhere near that amount of dV to get the encounter.
<discord-> A​shnoom. —
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Didn't help the game was losing do much due to console error spam from something
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — You should be able to get an encounter with the date from MJ; but the dV is *completely off*
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Clear
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Like trends, hundreds? Thousands?
<discord-> A​shnoom. — I understand the maneuver node is completely useless
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — I have gotten the transfers within a couple 100 m/s of the suggested
<discord-> l​pg. — ? the only times I've found the dv to be "completely off" was when I'd screwed up
<discord-> A​shnoom. — Well. New day tomorrow I guess
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — Completely might be an exaggeration