egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao->
⟨Sky 🐈⬛⟩ ⟪Starmincer⟫ More cat, for testing purposes […] ⮪ how much Δv does it get? /j
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<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ this feels like a stupid question but how do i target other vessels in principia? the regular method doesn't seem to work
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ and "select target celestial" only works for, well, celestials
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ i'm trying to execute a principia maneuver, but SAS/mechjeb keep aligning to a spot slightly different from the actual direction of the maneuver, resulting in not executing it
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ it's not an inability to RCS: if i correct my direction with RCS, it /realigns back/ to the wrong direction
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ is this a known vostok issue? do people not use the vostok? i like the vostok
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ +😅
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ (i haven't had any other 🦑 issues in this career so far, only the vostok is finicky)
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ I use vostok and never had this issue. I don't use the service module though, but when I used it at first there was also no issues.
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ how do you set it up? i equip the parachute, then the decoupler, then the service module
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ the service module/decoupler joint likes to kraken for me
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ capsule and parachute, everything else is optional
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ sometimes i use the vostok decoupler, sometimes not
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ service module is just not good and I don't use it
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ i guess if i just drop the vostok decoupler and use a regular one it would probably make the problem go away
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ ah, i see
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ is it just too heavy for what it is?
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ the infinitely restartable orbital maneuvering engine was nice though.
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ it's heavy, yes
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ it's also better to put EC in the capsule itself 🧀
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ it's not good for maneuvering either
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ it's basically good for nothing
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ infinitely restartable engine? i didn't notice that 🤔
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ but it's so heavy that I think RCS generic thruster will be better anyway
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ and finally, it's NE avionics, so it needs a lot of power, I use DS avionics for long missions in vostok/voskhod
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ oh i see, that's the 🧀. you can't turn off mercury avionics, but you can turn off vostok (because its not built into the capsule)
<queqiao->
⟨Bee Rights Activist⟩ you can turn off mercury avionics in the editor and leave them off after launch 🧀
<queqiao->
⟨Gratak-⟩ ⟪Fiora⟫ image.png ⮪ This is now an exact reproduction of the issues I had due to low Max-Physics Delta Time. Are you sure you have it at the right value right now?
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ 98% sure i do
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ but i will make sure when i go back to the main menu i will triple check and make sure it hasn't reverted itself. again.
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ -but
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Hmm. Is some mod undoing our overwriting of the SAS target orientation?
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ goddamnit nope you were right the physics timestep ended up back at 0.002 again
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ * 0.02
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ _sets back to 0.04_
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ at least with the KJR bugfix from last time it didn't cause any other problems
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ * thanks to
<queqiao->
⟨Gratak-⟩ In that case, don't worry egg, it's not related to principia
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ yeah i highly doubt its principia relatedc
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Oh this has to do with the time step?
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ * related
<queqiao->
⟨Gratak-⟩ The time warp step kills the craft in some rare cases
<queqiao->
⟨Gratak-⟩ If the craft is killed, mj is unable to orient it correctly
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ time step -(?)-> physics glitch -> screws up center of mass -> side effect breaks maneuver direction
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ We might not be using the right one when it is being messed with
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ confirmed that fixing the timestep gets rid of the physics glitch in that save file
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I should get some coffee.
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ no principia problem. principia is fine./
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ * fine.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I should still get some coffee though.
<queqiao->
⟨Starmincer⟩ ⟪egg⟫ I should still get some coffee though. ⮪ Always.
<queqiao->
⟨Starmincer⟩ +I also should get some coffee.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ ⟪Fiora⟫ time step -(?)-> KJR physics glitch -> […] ⮪ I wonder whether that last arrow hides another bug (are we somehow setting the guidance target vector wrong because the vessel is misshapen, or is guidance just failing, in which case it is KSP’s fault since the guidance is stock?).
<queqiao->
Also, that first arrow would need to be reported to whoever does KJR stuff these days.
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ my gut wild guess, not knowing the code, would be guidance vector target wrong due to vessel misshapen
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ because i never saw _this_ particular failure mode in stock
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ but presumably it only happens if the craft gets glitched out to begin with
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Do you know if that glitching out to begin with happen without Principia?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I recall vessels getting messed up like that (with no change in timestep) a long time ago, maybe the way I fixed it is broken by a change in timestep?
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ i suspect the initial glitch (the kraken) has nothing to do with principia, i originally encountered it in regular RP-1 and they fixed a KJR bug related to it
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ * kraken, basically...)
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ it basically resulted in phantom forces blowing ships apart
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ the cause was KJR initializing too early under certain circumstances due to a vesselmodified callback by one of the other mods
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ * mods, resulted in tension being caught in the physics system and creating phantom forces
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ * forces, which caused vessels to rapidly spin out of control
<queqiao->
⟨Gratak-⟩ I suspect the kraken glitch is somehow related to the community fixes. They explicitly state that they fix a kraken bug that sounds exactly like that by setting the physics time step to min for a certain number of frames. It might be that this fix fails if it always is at that time step
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (There are so many things that have been nicknamed the kraken that it is hard to tell whether one kraken has much to do with another)
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ it behaves exactly like the other kraken i mentioned (weird vessel parts glitches that occur on load-in when and only when KJR is enabled)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (Many of them are numerics. Maybe we should call them the wolves.)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ OK, checking the code, "SAS.SetTargetOrientation" is called with "rsas_target_" which has been set to exactly the same thing as the navball marker, so I’ll concur that Principia is inoccent until proven otherwise.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ * innocent
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ (actually, i wonder if the bug was in mechjeb, because i was using mechjeb to aim at the target.....)
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ * a bug would be more likely
<queqiao->
⟨test_account⟩ does SAS maneuver mode correctly aim at the target?
<queqiao->
⟨Fiora⟩ _pitches 🦑 into a ditch_ i do not want to test you again
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ hey egg, I know the answer is probably going to be _laughing noises_, but how well do you think Principia and one of the KSP multiplayer mods would play together?
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ assuming everyone had it installed
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ ⟪Damien⟫ hey egg (@_discord_340796382434689037:ma[…] ⮪ Hilarity will most likely ensue, I am not sure in what exact way. Probably the vessels controlled by other players will be kept in free fall by Principia, which may be a problem if other players are doing anything. Try it out, I guess?
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ ⟪egg⟫ Hilarity will most likely ensue, I am […] ⮪ 👍
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ the short answer is no. can't install any mods on the server and I still got a planet collision warning