UmbralRaptor changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> … one of the other grad students just compared me to nomal O_o | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer.
<kmath>
<JPMajor> This picture of #Saturn is made from some of the last images we'll receive from #Cassini, acquired Sept. 13, 2017.… https://t.co/p7CdhAsNaQ
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<UmbralRaptor>
egg: I'm more perturbed by that Nielson variant of the Lagrange-Euler equation.
e_14159 has joined #kspacademia
* soundnfury
analyses UmbralRaptor's perturbation. It appears to be second order.
<UmbralRaptor>
∇Δ∇Δ∇Δ∇Δ∇Δ∇Δ∇Δ∇Δ∇Δ∇Δ
<soundnfury>
the guns of nablarone
<soundnfury>
(it's how the Swiss differentiate their chocolate from other brands)
<bofh>
Ellied: presumably it's an Apple ASIC that hasn't been RE'd yet but circuit topology and/or voltage levels imply amplification takes place elsewhere?
* UmbralRaptor
wants to say that native FLAC has been in Android for a while, and some players could do it non-natively earlier?
<Ellied>
presumably. I'm just reeling at having to re-confront the fact that such a ubiquitous class of device (smartphones) is built out of chips with no publicly-available datasheets.
<Ellied>
I've been able to play FLAC on android since I got my N5, so that would be version 4.4
<Ellied>
couldn't say about earlier.
<Iskierka>
also just before I go to bed, no DM or such from daniels?
<Iskierka>
@ Ellied in case distracted
<SnoopJeDi>
Ellied, where else would you put the magic smoke?
<Ellied>
Iskierka: No. I'm guessing she didn't see it. :/
<Iskierka>
Proooobable. Patreon says there should be a discord, so ... might try find out where that is tomorrow, since I didn't get auto-added
<Iskierka>
I'd've also suggested I could see if I could try an earlier version of android, but apparently the original moto G got patched all the way to 5.1. I am impressed by that
<Ellied>
possibly also try tumblr? I'm not on there, dk if you are
<SnoopJeDi>
21:21 < grym> luatex should converge on \tau
<SnoopJeDi>
21:21 < grym> that'll show 'em
<Iskierka>
... I mean I probably have a tumblr account somewhere just because it's convenient to throw out accounts you might need to reserve names
<kmath>
<NSFVoyager2> What a contrast! Pioneer 11 reached Saturn in 1979, taking this photo. The B Ring is dark due to an image processin… https://t.co/fm2jL60eDl
<SnoopJeDi>
!
* UmbralRaptor
sings the praises of ISO 8601 versioning.
<kmath>
<jesserogerson> @CassiniSaturn @NASAJPL @esa @cassini @NASAVoyager @MuseeAvEspace @NASA 108/ #Hyperion looks more like a chunk of c… https://t.co/zCbiEKK96i
<Ellied>
as far as I can tell, what happened with Android is that they started it off with this whole "everyone can make apps" thing as one of their core ideas, but because they're Google, they also went and made it easy to put ads and microtransactions in your app, which caused a huge influx of garage developers making garbage apps for a quick buck, which is why so much of Android's security features are
<Ellied>
now inward-facing, to alleviate the inevitable case in which one of those billions of shit apps turns out to be more malicious than incompetent/greedy.
<SnoopJeDi>
No sweat writing an RTOS from scratch will Definitely Fix The Problem(s)
<Ellied>
so that's why the platform is a tire fire and you have to sift through burning dumpsters to find any of the few and sparse Good Apps.
<Ellied>
oh goddd that RTOS project is so scary
<Ellied>
"Android turned out pretty bad, so now we want to make it again and get you to install it on literally everything you own and interact with"
<SnoopJeDi>
I think that the Stagefright vuln may have been the exact moment I lost faith in mobile devices ever being not-terrifying
<UmbralRaptor>
The past few years have been depressing for vulns.
* UmbralRaptor
stares at heartbleed.
<UmbralRaptor>
So, uh, a parent asked me if I'm happy [at GMU].
* UmbralRaptor
was mildly tempted to reply with "what is happiness?" but that might not go over well.
<bofh>
yeah, sounds, erm, suboptimal as a response
* Ellied
is experimenting with disabling google play services on her phone
<Ellied>
it's clearly been designed to make doing that a huge pain but I think I can get it sorted out
<SnoopJeDi>
realtalk though, it's a good thing to admit "I'm not feeling great" if it's true UmbralRaptor. Mindfulness of mental health is such an alarmingly large (and overlooked!) dimension
<SnoopJeDi>
err, with someone, I mean. I can definitely see why you might not wanna discuss it with particular persons :P
<Ellied>
it really is. after some deliberation a while back, I decided to be transparent with everyone I meet about my antidepressant regimen, because in all likelihood a very large percentage of people I talk to are also being treated for depression and might feel like it's some kind of taboo to mention it
<bofh>
what SnoopJeDi said, basically.
<UmbralRaptor>
SnoopJeDi: not that so much as dealing with parents is inherently stressful,
<SnoopJeDi>
I think you can make a good case that this is literally the function of parents once cognitive development is mostly done
<SnoopJeDi>
inasmuch as stress is how we grow :P
<bofh>
yes but grad school already provides ample amounts of it IMO
<kmath>
<JPMajor> Mosaic of #Saturn made from raw images captured by #Cassini on Sept. 13, 2017 during its #GrandFinale dive.… https://t.co/BZN2koVffU
<Ellied>
so about an even mix of google apps a) work fine without play services, b) gripe with a little notification about it, but continue to work fine all the same, or c) flatly refuse to work without it.
<Ellied>
ironically, all of the category c apps are the ones that have no technical reason to depend on a device-wide framework for what they do (hangouts, youtube, groupme)
<bofh>
rofl, amazing. why am I not the least bit surprised about that?
<Ellied>
oh, groupme actually lets you click out of the dialog box. the others don't.
<bofh>
lmao
<bofh>
amazing
<Ellied>
hmm, maps doesn't appear to be interested in showing me where I am anymore. I can still search for places and find them, but my little location blob is off in the middle of Nevada.
<bofh>
so I think it needs Play Services to access Location Services, but don't quote me on that.
<Ellied>
nope, it just didn't have a GPS fix. it worked when I went outside.
<Ellied>
Location still works fine in other apps too, although GPS Essentials' google maps integration is broken.
<kmath>
<Alex_Parker> "I wish we had mounted the mag-boom on pyros. We could jettison it and survive entry for longer." #ThingsCassiniEngineersSay
<bofh>
the sad part is how sensible this is to me right now
<Fiora>
i assume we'll lose contact before it burns up?
<bofh>
yeah, the boresight on the High-Gain Antenna is very narrow, it'll go off-point well before the S/C sustains much damage.
<bofh>
actually that's something that we'll know more of in a few hours, since the S-band beam is much wider than the X-band one... so even after X goes off-point we should still get S-band carrier for a few seconds... now how many is the interesting question.
<Fiora>
i meant from atmospheric interference, even!
<SnoopJeDi>
I was under the impression that stationkeeping was the biggest limiter, but I haven't poked at the details really at all
<Fiora>
oh yeah stationkeeping seems reasonable
<bofh>
X-band has minimal attenuation from atmospherics, heck how we do radio science is we transmit unmodulated carrier thru $GAS_GIANT atmosphere & measure effects on Earth... it never results in too much attenuation.
<Fiora>
geez
<bofh>
keep in mind that demodulation of Cassini's signal when the *bit signal margin* is ~1dBm below the noise floor b/c 5/16 Viterbi codes are magic and give a ~2.4dBm *symbol* SNR boost. it's ridiculous.
<bofh>
+is possible*
<bofh>
I accidentally a subordinate clause there, lol.
<Fiora>
heh, not as crazy as GPS
<SnoopJeDi>
I am in perpetual awe of how much radio you know bofh
<bofh>
Fiora: point, GPS is utterly loopy.
<bofh>
I'm honestly amazed it works as well as it does on commodity h/w
<Fiora>
10db below noise flooooor
<bofh>
SnoopJeDi: I'm a radio amateur & read a lot of DESCANSO docs. also worked with SDRs a bunch in 2015. it's really fun, and IMO straightforward in that a lot of it builds naturally on other aspects of it
<bofh>
Fiora: yep. and we pick it up with *tiny* antennas is the coolest/most mind-boggling thing
<bofh>
...oh great now I'm getting *Cassini-themed Elsevier sponsored tweets*. Dear Azathoth, why is this a thing?
<kmath>
<SarcasticRover> @tweetsoutloud You tell me.
<Iskierka>
SnoopJeDi, "you can't measure a radius" is a pretty good argument
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn UmbralRaptor
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptor an epsilon culverin
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn Iskierka
* Qboid
gives Iskierka a sarcastic theory of everything
<Iskierka>
so just the one we already got?
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn котя
* Qboid
gives котя a thallium coilgun
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<bofh>
~4 mins to loss of signal
<Iskierka>
... twitter why are you putting replies that were fine to show when I wasn't logged in under hidden when I am, when I have hidden set to by default apppear?
<kmath>
<iamscicomm> Thank you Jonathan Lunine for this vision of @CassiniSaturn's last moments, based on a poem by Swinburne.… https://t.co/ZoGnLJs5TG
<bofh>
and yep :'( :'( :'(
<hattivat>
at least there is definite closure instead of a slow drift towards eventual cancellation
<kmath>
<bofh453> For some lesser-known @CassiniSaturn images, here are zooms of Uranus taken in 2014 & Neptune/Triton a month ago.… https://t.co/Pssy8LdmbE
<bofh>
eh, planetary probes tend to do that. I mean MESSENGER's impact into Mercury was only a little over two years ago.
<bofh>
and I will have you know that Voyager is and still will be returning good science for very likely at least another 10 years.
<bofh>
but yes, it did SCIENCE right to the end and even managed to surprise us in the last seconds of its life
<bofh>
by managing to keep on-point for a little over a full minute longer than predicted
<Iskierka>
Huh, I thought from the FFT graph it only did a few blips for a few seconds after. But I guess data is probably readable while not visible there with good enough receivers
<bofh>
so first off only X-band carried telemetry, S & Ka were just carriers
<kmath>
<nascom1> @bofh453 I still think its cool locking Telemetry with an SSNR of -6db,BSNR +2db. 1/6 converlutional encoding is really noise tolerant
<hattivat>
@bofh: I am well aware of that, but Voyager will eventually get cancelled or go silent without us knowing why, so it will go with a whimper, not a bang
<bofh>
true. also "without us knowing why": we'll run out of power to run the X-band TWTA is almost certainly the answer why.
<bofh>
the depressing thing with Voyager is the X-TWTAs are one of the biggest power draws, far more than any instrument (but still less than the bay/instrument heaters)
<bofh>
so there will be a point where we can run some instruments, all the onboard computers, and even the S/X-band exciters, but we won't be able to amplify the signal enough to transmit it.
<Iskierka>
doesn't have the batteries or otherwise ability to build up burst transmissions?
<bofh>
Nope. It has capacitors to deal with temporary transient power surges during switch-on of, say, an X-TWTA, but no batteries at all.
<bofh>
Anyway, I predict its useful life is longer than the team suspects, since I strongly suspect a lot of the systems on it can run at a lower temperature than designed for.
<bofh>
I mean that was true for UVS, the supplementary heater for it was turned off in 2015 and it was still returning useful data in April 2016 despite being at something like 50K - 90K for most of the electronics at that time.
<bofh>
And the biggest power draw on Voyager is by far the heaters.
<Iskierka>
so shut down the heaters and hope as it reaches the edge of tranmission power
<bofh>
Yep, basically. If we can turn off enough bay heaters and the thermocouples keep degrading as gracefully as they have been then there's a *small* chance of getting data back from at least one science instrument as late as 2037.
<bofh>
Which would be nothing short of amazing. But current predictions are that we're fairly safe until 2027 at the very least, tho gyro ops/MAGROLs will likely have to go in that time period.
<e_14159>
UmbralRaptor: I'd like to assert that I am not an engineer.
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: I last saw rqou on [14.09.2017 23:23:36] in #kspacademia saying: "yup, never studied that"
<Ellied>
I have to wonder if google et al did *any* pentesting at all before pushing out the face recognition thing as it stands now
<Ellied>
so far all of the selfies I've tested on all the screens I own have reliably unlocked my test phone (moved to my old Nexus 5 to avoid putting my main phone in harm's way, as it were)
<rqou>
egg|zzz|egg: the shitpost level here is even higher than in ##openfpga :P
<Ellied>
small channel, I suppose.
<rqou>
except that there's also a silly little bot in here
<Ellied>
multiple silly little bots
<rqou>
!wpn egg|zzz|egg
* Qboid
gives egg|zzz|egg an octapod [REDACTED]-like ?
<Ellied>
;mission
<kmath>
Ellied: You try to f?ind the zero-width space hidden in your mission. A fleet of pyrocopters invades the KSC.
<UmbralRaptor>
That was easier than eggspected.
<Ellied>
dammit icefire
<egg|zzz|egg>
rqou: well, it doesn't have an actual topic, so that helps
<egg|zzz|egg>
numerics and catpics and other things
<rqou>
and homework help? :P
<egg|zzz|egg>
sometimes linguistics when hattivat is there
<rqou>
anyways, i got the problem sets finished, so yay
<Ellied>
alright, I think I'm gonna give up on the android-sans-google-play thing for now. Google wins yet another round with their relentless frustration-sanctions.
<Iskierka>
it'd probably work if you fresh installed a version of android without it at all
<egg|zzz|egg>
rqou: well homework help is incidental to eggsplaining fancy mathematics :-p
<UmbralRaptor>
AOSP or something?
<Ellied>
it would, but it's hard to tell if I could get all the things working that I want. The tricky part is when you actually do want to use *some* of google's services, just not have them constantly monitoring your device.
<Ellied>
Abandoning google completely is easy enough; the hard part is when you want some but not all.
<Ellied>
Going googleless is probably an inevitability for me if I keep clinging to my ideas about technological autonomy into the scary future, but I don't think I'm ready yet.
<FluffyFoxeh>
I stopped using Chrome and Gmail a few years ago. I use F-Droid apps when I can (even on the Play store the only apps that don't suck are the FOSS ones) but my phone has Play Services on it still
<FluffyFoxeh>
location is disabled and I don't use voice recognition anything
<Ellied>
f-droid has a cool app called Yalp Store, which lets you update apps without google play and (perhaps more generally usefully) filter search results to exclude paid apps or ones with ads.
<Ellied>
...huh, I somehow managed to revoke a few permissions from Google Play Services without it flipping its shit and refusing to let any google apps work? cool
<UmbralRaptor>
bofh: wait, does that make eating apples a metaphor for something?
<hattivat>
egg|zzz|egg: egg!
<hattivat>
!wpn egg|zzz|egg
* Qboid
gives egg|zzz|egg a statistical octahedron
<UmbralRaptor>
Ellied: And I'm at a loss for what to do to derive it.
<Ellied>
wait, what
<Ellied>
how does - what?
<UmbralRaptor>
Given Lagrange's equation (and d'Alembert's principle, in the text), derive this alternate form. >_<
<Ellied>
step 1: magically tell a derivative to go away. 2: conjure a 2 from the quantum foam and destroy the corresponding anti-two before the symmetry police catch you.
<UmbralRaptor>
Sadly this is classical mechanics.
<Ellied>
oh wait, that's T-dot in the second one
<UmbralRaptor>
Yeah
<Ellied>
but somehow not q_j-doubledot in the denomenator
<Ellied>
fucking classical mechanics man
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* UmbralRaptor
feels like this is the revenge of the product rule.
<Ellied>
my uni's new makerspace has a laser cutter which, for some unfortunate reason, bears the product name "RetinaEngrave"
* Ellied
would prefer her retinas to remain unengraved
<Iskierka>
it's for engraving mac screens
<UmbralRaptor>
Does that mean my 1440x900 MBA is laser proof?
<Ellied>
wait I'm misremembering, that's the name of the software to control the thing
<Ellied>
probably
<Iskierka>
UmbralRaptor, let's try it
<UmbralRaptor>
Hah
<Ellied>
why would you name anything that has to do with lasers (or anything at all) RetinaEngrave
<Ellied>
just having the word "retina" in the same breath as "laser" is off to a very bad start
<Iskierka>
LASIK
<Ellied>
that uses a UV laser that doesn't reach your retina by design
<UmbralRaptor>
CorneaEngrave?
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<Iskierka>
inb4 it's someone who got one of the early cornea replacements that are transparent to UV and is unaware of the problem
<Ellied>
if I get the chance I'll see if I can rename the shortcut for the software to "Laser Eye Removal"
<Ellied>
although if the lens were also replaced I think the aqueous humor is transparent down to 300nm or so and I don't remember what the exact wavelength for surgery is
* Ellied
imagines Iskierka's brain as having a separate autonomous coprocessor lobe that constantly sifts the internet for amusing pictures and posts them on IRC as they are found
<Iskierka>
that would be a convenient addition
<Greys>
that's called a bot
<UmbralRaptor>
The true value of multiple cores.
<Ellied>
"why doesn't a woodstove melt when you build a fire in it" ah yes, how could I forget. All fires are the exact same temperature. this is why oxyacetylene torches can't cut metal and airplanes use wood-fired turbofans.
<UmbralRaptor>
Also, dramatically reduced structural strength can happen before melting.
<Ellied>
brb writing microcode for the Intel IME that writes and publishes shitposts based on the content of your RAM.
<UmbralRaptor>
Ellied: wait, that could work. o_O
<Ellied>
would require a pretty daunting amount of RE I bet, but yeah.
<Ellied>
SPC (ShitPosting Coprocessor)
<Ellied>
that might need to be an SCP joke article
<Greys>
brief googlering suggests it might be possible to make a wood burning jet engine
<Greys>
this seems like it could be optimized with some more complicated pipework
<Iskierka>
sawdust and an appropriate injector would probably be able to be comparable TWR to what we get
<Iskierka>
a reduction, but perfectly flyable
<Greys>
hmmm, powder explosion powered turbines
<Iskierka>
jet engines are purely heat engines and anything that can apply heat quickly enough is viable
<Greys>
because of the granular scale you'd probably need a powder turbine to be much longer so that it's not spewing still combusting fuel out the exhaust at a high density
<Iskierka>
the combustion chamber is very hot, likely will burn dust very quickly, and very short; significant length changes would not noticeably alter the engine design
<Ellied>
I'm imagining a flight crew throwing logs into an onboard woodchipper/shredder/pulverizer
<Ellied>
although I suppose a pellet-stove-like supply system would be far more realistic
<Ellied>
guessing storing loose sawdust would be undesirable since it might not pack densely enough
<Ellied>
or maybe it might, I haven't played with large amounts of sawdust in a while
<Ellied>
hmm, and I guess you'd likely grind it a lot finer than what you normally get from an actual saw
<SnoopJeDi>
Ellied, re:laser - emission theory?
<Ellied>
come again?
<Greys>
really if you were going to make a wood burning stove, the ideal would be to cheat and use wood gas
<SnoopJeDi>
I meant perhaps the silly name is because of the emission theory of vision (superman pew-pew is how you see)
<SnoopJeDi>
I didn't mean it very seriously though :P
<Iskierka>
hm, how would physics have to change for the eye to be able to remotely sense its beams impinging on objects
<hattivat>
that would be a really weird world, especially at long distances
<Greys>
then you'd compress the wood gass and store it in tanks o the aircraft
<hattivat>
think about the time delay when you first open your eyes in this model
<hattivat>
the world would gradually appear starting from the closest things
<hattivat>
if you blinked fast while looking at the moon, the effect would I suspect be bizarre
<Greys>
Iskierka, what if the eye emitted photons that were entangled with photons stored in bose einstein condensates bouncing between reflectors very slowly; then when the photon hit whatever, the entangled photon would somethingsomethingquantumshinanigans and you could use timing to range the Z depth of that scan point
<Greys>
vision would work like watching Cycles render
<Greys>
any time your vision perspective changed, you'd either have to invalidate your sight, or go scanner sombre style and keep a point space in your memory
<Greys>
which would mean that you could see things that you'd seen in the past but can't see now
<Iskierka>
at least you'd be able to measure long distances very accurately once the speed of light is determined
<hattivat>
Greys raises a good point, there is also the neurological side to it
<Greys>
kinda, you'd never be able to see the moon because it's constantly moving and your sight of it would be smeared across the sky
<hattivat>
our brains reconstruct the world from the data they receive from their eyes, so in this model they might have to do some really hard reconstructing
<Greys>
;wa distance to the moon in light seconds
<kmath>
Greys: convert Moon->distance from Earth to light seconds: 1.238 light seconds
<hattivat>
to keep a coherent representation that you could use to live your life
<Greys>
so whatever angular travel of the moon in 2 seconds would be your blur factor; unless the model identifies and simulates interframe motion
<Greys>
at this point you'd basically be implementing video compression on 3D point spaces
<Iskierka>
why would it blur? The eye emission will reach the moon all at once and be detected
<Greys>
presumibly the eye would be emitting constantly
<hattivat>
perhaps the eyes would evolve to blink at a constant, high rate
<hattivat>
then you'd be wathing a movie
<hattivat>
except for the mess with the moon
<Greys>
that wouldn't work because ranging defines sight delay
<Iskierka>
the eye as-is already detects constantly, but it only receives the light of the moon that bounced off exactly 1.238 seconds ago
<hattivat>
but then, well, biological organisms do not need to be able to see the moon clearly in order to survive
<Iskierka>
a projecting eye would only detect 1.238 seconds into the future
<hattivat>
so no reason for evolution ot select for that
<Greys>
right but the eye isn't building a spacial understanding of point positions
<Greys>
with a buffer based sight system you can just replace previous information with new information, with a space based sight system you have to figure out how to adapt previous information to match new information otherwise you'd constantly only see a sparse field of colored dots with a density relative to how many scanning photons you can emit and have live in a given time
<hattivat>
I wonder how bats do it
<Greys>
unless you have a time to live factor limiting your range to distances with insignificant delays, all your rays going to the moon are going to reduce your capacity to see in real time until they land
<Iskierka>
eye has finite resolution, just emit at least as many as sensor cells
<Iskierka>
although this raises a point that there would be aliasing in real life
<Greys>
really, if you don't have a time to live factor, looking at the sky would permanently blind you
<SnoopJeDi>
well...
<SnoopJeDi>
the name "time to live" is rather apropos in this sense, then
<Greys>
so then what would ever cause a creature to evolve a sufficiently long time to live to see the moon
<Greys>
;wa 4.7km to light seconds
<kmath>
Greys: convert 4.7 km (kilometers) to light seconds: 1.57×10^-5 light seconds
<SnoopJeDi>
hattivat, I've never poked at it but the research on echolocation seems to be rather incredible
<Greys>
if I recall, typical storm clouds at the horizon can be over 500 miles away, and seeing the weather is helpful, plus it would help to inform you of the sun's position'
<Greys>
;wa 500 miles to light seconds
<kmath>
Greys: convert 500 miles to light seconds: 0.002684 light seconds
<hattivat>
holy shit, the sun
<hattivat>
how do you see the sun in this model
<Greys>
so teh moon is a thousand times further away than it makes sense for a typical creature with this vision system to evolve their probe photons to last
<hattivat>
just think about it, the photons emitted by your eyes are reflected from the sun, how bizarre is that
<Greys>
after a few hundredths of a second you'd destroy the entangled photon and initialize a new pair to try seeing again
<SnoopJeDi>
oh huh, apparently yesterday was the 2017 Ig Nobel ceremony
<Greys>
logically speaking you just wouldn't see the sun, ever, you'd infer it's effects by observation
<Greys>
you'd also never see the moon, or any star ever
<Greys>
unless you invented photography for some reason
<SnoopJeDi>
Greys, perhaps in this universe a watched pot would boil? :)
<Greys>
I wonder if you could even detect color
<SnoopJeDi>
"THIS SUMMER: in a world where everyone is a walking Raman spectrometer, one woman..."
<hattivat>
also, you could literally bask in attention
<Greys>
so far you'd see that a point in space is, because your photon hit it and you know the angle it was fired, the position it was fired from, and the time of flight; you wouldn't I guess see luminosity or coloration, unless you were firing multiple wavelengths and inspecting absorption statistics
<Greys>
color and luminosity would need to be super valuable in this ecology to justify the massive drop in polling rate from having to send multiple types of probe photons repeatedly at the same place
<Greys>
also we've basically ignored the whole "other living things that move and want to eat you" part of life
<SnoopJeDi>
This makes me wonder what the ancients who believed such things invoked in order to explain...any of reality.
<Greys>
well, I'm gonna guess "bullshit"
* soundnfury
gives SnoopJeDi a Solar Probe Prussia
<SnoopJeDi>
Greys, hindsight is 20/20 in fairness
* SnoopJeDi
glances at epicycles
<SnoopJeDi>
okay but maybe sometimes things were legitimately silly
<Greys>
true, but more like; when science is wrong, the hypothesis isn't usually baseless
<SnoopJeDi>
soundnfury, I wish I was better at these hand-crafted riddles D:
<Greys>
was it Hermes Tres Majestes that said "Dragons are definitely real, and have nothing to do with aligators"
<SnoopJeDi>
Greys, to say nothing of "science" generally meaning the very short blip that is empiricism
<soundnfury>
!wpn SnoopJeDi
* Qboid
gives SnoopJeDi a Christoffel 1N4148
* SnoopJeDi
connects it
<SnoopJeDi>
!wpn soundnfury
* Qboid
gives soundnfury a FLOSS hyperbolic 2N3906
<SnoopJeDi>
I wonder how many devices Ellied has taught Qboid at this point
<Iskierka>
y'know you could just get a csv list and a script
* soundnfury
gives SnoopJeDi an inoperational µa741
<SnoopJeDi>
Iskierka, oh it has a wpn list command?
<Iskierka>
I meant to add all of the devices :p
<Iskierka>
I doubt it can list all of them
<SnoopJeDi>
ah
<soundnfury>
isn't there a wpn stats command?
<soundnfury>
!wpn -stats
<Qboid>
soundnfury: Total weapons: 662. Total adjectives: 847. Total possible combinations: 1259561015990.
<kmath>
<alt_kia> "drag isnt real," i assure myself as i turn off my imaging subsystems and ram Saturn’s atmosphere with my shitty mass spectrometer
<SnoopJeDi>
oh wow, bofh I've had this morning's broadcast playing while I work. Just watched the S-band drop away and I'm wowed by the reaction of those in the mission control
<Iskierka>
oh hey email worked
* Iskierka
watches tweetdeck have an aneurism updating April's feed
<Iskierka>
Also, Juno's scheduled to go in only around 2019?
<UmbralRaptor>
Juno is not long for this world.
<UmbralRaptor>
Or for Jovian ones.
<SnoopJeDi>
I'd not seen John Conway's Numberphile videos, but they're nice!
<kmath>
<ChrisKempshall> In many ways #Cassini died a true #academic's death. Crushed by overwhelming pressure after 20 years on the same project with no way home.
<soundnfury>
*snort*
<SnoopJeDi>
the very same UmbralRaptor
<soundnfury>
!wpn UmbralRaptor
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptor a Hermite hydrogen lemma
<kmath>
<spaceLenny> I can’t tell if my #LSTM is overfitting or if this is the best Seinfeld episode ever. #deeplearning #tensorflow https://t.co/d5WfCztVR9
<soundnfury>
incidentally, "Hail to the Dave" is also known as "my working day as a kernel networking developer"
<bofh>
LOL
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn hattivat
* Qboid
gives hattivat a panzer flaming reflector-like mission
<hattivat>
!wpn egg|zzz|egg
* Qboid
gives egg|zzz|egg an espresso
<hattivat>
speaking of which
<hattivat>
!wpn add cezve
* Qboid
gives add cezve a transitive ORBAT
<egg|zzz|egg>
ESPRESSO?
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: [ESPRESSO] => Echelle SPectrograph for Rocky Exoplanet and Stable Spectroscopic Observations
<egg|zzz|egg>
hattivat: -add:wpn
<hattivat>
-add:wpn cezve
<hattivat>
!add:wpn cezve
<egg|zzz|egg>
no, !wpn -add:wpn
<hattivat>
!wpn -add:cezve
<Qboid>
hattivat: Invalid type
<hattivat>
........syntax wars
<hattivat>
!wpn -add: cezve
<Qboid>
hattivat: Invalid type
<egg|zzz|egg>
!help wpn
<Qboid>
wpn: Creates weapons from a list of objects and adjectives
<Qboid>
parameters: -add (Adds objects or adjectives), -remove (Removes objects or adjectives), -stats (Shows data about the weapons)
<Qboid>
example: !weapon
<hattivat>
!wpn -add cezve
<Qboid>
hattivat: Invalid type
<egg|zzz|egg>
-add:wpn tho
<hattivat>
!wpn -add weapon cezve
<Qboid>
hattivat: Invalid type
<egg|zzz|egg>
:D
<hattivat>
!wpn -add wpn cezve
<Qboid>
hattivat: Invalid type
<egg|zzz|egg>
:
<hattivat>
!wpn -add:wpn cezve
<Qboid>
hattivat: Weapon added!
<egg|zzz|egg>
\o/
<hattivat>
sweet cthulhu, that was miserable
<hattivat>
but thanks, anyway
<hattivat>
!man wpn
<hattivat>
not POSIX-compliant, I see :P
* egg|zzz|egg
pokes hattivat with linguistics
<hattivat>
any particular linguistics you'd like to share?
<hattivat>
you probably have more contact with that than I do if you're still on the i18n team
<hattivat>
my life these last few weeks have largely been spent wrestling pandas, not much linguistics to it
<hattivat>
s/have/has
<Qboid>
hattivat meant to say: my life these last few weeks has largely been spent wrestling pandas, not much linguistics to it
<egg|zzz|egg>
hattivat: well I'm still doing YouTube i18n, but a lot of it is fighting people who want to invent date formats rather than chatting with linguists :-p
<hattivat>
I gather there are more than two date formats one might want?
<hattivat>
I only know two, and of course only one of them is not insane
<egg|zzz|egg>
hattivat: no, UmbralRaptor does not mean that
<hattivat>
oh wait, modified julian date
<hattivat>
didn't know the acronym
<UmbralRaptor>
Wait, MYD is a thing?
<egg|zzz|egg>
hattivat: I use a different date format for the date for every entry of the team meeting notes doc :-p
<hattivat>
and yes, I obviously would
<UmbralRaptor>
What do you even use it for? Poems glorifying Satan?
<hattivat>
UmbralRaptor: I assumed the abbreviations would be like the ones of word order in linguistics
<hattivat>
so MYD would be month-year-day
<UmbralRaptor>
uh
<hattivat>
egg|zzz|egg: :D
<UmbralRaptor>
Okay, how do you feel about TAI?
<bofh>
TAI is the one correct time IMO
<hattivat>
UmbralRaptor: I don't really have opinions about it
<hattivat>
I was thinking at a much less technical level, basically when egg|zzz|egg said date format the first thing I thought about was American vs European date order
<hattivat>
(with American being the one I was clumsily alluding to as being insane)
<egg|zzz|egg>
so for one meeting it might say 2017年9月15日 and then the following one 2017년 9월 15일
<egg|zzz|egg>
, ١٥/٠٩/٢٠١٧, or 15.09.2017
<egg|zzz|egg>
:D
<hattivat>
Chinese, Korean, Arabic
<Iskierka>
... this isn't the font size for CJK
<hattivat>
do I get a cookie for instantly recongizing them all?
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: nah, TCG and TCB are the only sane times
<UmbralRaptor>
hattivat: I feel like the correct thing for international groups is to impose ISO 8601.
<Iskierka>
first one I'd've called Japanese but because I don't interact with anything chinese much
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: or rather they are the only things that are defined as time :-p
<hattivat>
Iskierka: the characters are certainly the same
<egg|zzz|egg>
Iskierka: could be either, same format
<hattivat>
UmbralRaptor: yep, ISO 8601 is the sanest and most consistent choice in my opinion too
<hattivat>
egg|zzz|egg: does Khmer face the same font problems as Burmese?
<egg|zzz|egg>
hattivat: basic format (20170915) or eggstended format (2017-09-15)?
<egg|zzz|egg>
hattivat: I haven't heard of khmer issues
<bofh>
egg|zzz|egg: I object, TAI is also defined as time.
<hattivat>
I recall that getting it working on a computer was a real hassle back when I had some contact with it a few years ago
<hattivat>
situation might have improved since then
<egg|zzz|egg>
hattivat: and we do have khmer in YouTube! :D
<hattivat>
egg|zzz|egg: eggstended, if there are humans in the loop
<hattivat>
actually, even if there aren't, if someone then needs to use regexp to scrape data out of the program 30 years in the future when it's legacy, eggstended will give him an easier time
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: it's defined as the result of a measurement, in particular once published the errors remain part of TAI (and bulletins give the detailed difference wrt TT)
<hattivat>
egg|zzz|egg: nice
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: you could argue that TT is defined as time, but since it's defined as a scaling of TCG we just come back to that
<egg|zzz|egg>
and TAI is a measurement of (something that runs parallel to) TT
<bofh>
so we disagree, since I'm of the opinion that TCG is a scaled offset of TAI
<egg|zzz|egg>
... that's not a question of opinion, it's defined by the IAU and other bodies
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: the definition has changed though
<egg|zzz|egg>
it used to be that TT was time too, time at the geoid
<bofh>
I define time as inverse of a subharmonic of the frequency of a certain hyperfine transition in Cs
<bofh>
Last I checked, *this is also the SI second definition*
<soundnfury>
I define time as an illusion, half as much as lunchtime.
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: that doesn't incorporate GR in any way; the definitions of time scales start with time coordinates of some reference frame (either with the BCRS or the GCRS), see IAU2000 B1.1
<bofh>
egg|zzz|egg: that's my whole point, any sane definition is independent of reference frame and only depends on a frequency standard.
<egg|zzz|egg>
wat
<egg|zzz|egg>
how is that sane in any way
<soundnfury>
I think you're at cross-purposes.
<egg|zzz|egg>
the *unit* is of course reference-frame independent
<soundnfury>
egg|zzz|egg is talking about "absolute" time, while bofh is talking about relative time.
<egg|zzz|egg>
but a time scale must be linked to a reference frame
<soundnfury>
(of course, absolute time is still relative to some defined epoch and frame)
awang has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
awang has joined #kspacademia
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: in particular, in applications where you need a better realization of TT than TAI is, you can use TT(BIPM): ftp://ftp2.bipm.org/pub/tai/ttbipm/TTBIPM.16
<bofh>
egg|zzz|egg: oh, time *scale*
<bofh>
I see the difference, you care about absolute times, I only care about time interval lengths.
<bofh>
hence, this silly argument :P
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: but still, conceptually TAI is just a measurement, if for some reason the measurement is faulty that gets incorporated into TAI, and that's still not a change in the time interval
<bofh>
yeah, I keep forgetting that TAI is a *specific* averaged measurement of some 400 atomic clocks
<egg|zzz|egg>
i.e. by inspecting TT(BIPM) you can notice that the number of hyperfine transitions at the geoid between J2000 and J2000+1 s was not actually what's specified by the SI
<egg|zzz|egg>
whereas in TT it is, by definition (well if you interpret the definition of TT as defining the geoid now)
<egg|zzz|egg>
I meant J2000 TAI and J2000+1 s TAI of course
<egg|zzz|egg>
(by default Julian dates are to be interpreted as TT)
<bofh>
(yep)
<bofh>
what's BIPM stand for, anyhow?
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: also keeping track of those bulletins and circulars is a bit confusing
<egg|zzz|egg>
BIPM?
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg: [BIPM] => Bureau International des Poids et Mesures
<soundnfury>
Seems like a lot of trouble to go to just to time a car race...
<Iskierka>
the TT is bikes you waffle
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: also I now notice that I don't incorporate circular T into principia's compile-time time computation...
<soundnfury>
Iskierka: well, fsck.
<bofh>
oh, huh, you don't. that's interesting, why don't you?
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: maybe TAI literals should use TT(BIPM) to get converted to our Instant type :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: because I forgot?
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: because also I don't care that much, since Principia doesn't know about GR and identifies TDB and TT
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: so that Instant is both TT and TDB, which differ more than TAI does from TT - 32.184 s
<egg|zzz|egg>
(also I didn't mean circular T, I meant TT(BIPM))
* soundnfury
gives egg|zzz|egg a relativistic heavy ironing board
<egg|zzz|egg>
this is confusiiing why is half this stuff from IERS and half from BIPM aaaaaa
<bofh>
Ahh. I think there's an approximation to GR's time dilation effect that's straightforward to implement, iirc...
<egg|zzz|egg>
also so much aligned text files over ftp
<soundnfury>
International Egg Rotation Service
<soundnfury>
Bureau of Iskierka's Private Messages
<soundnfury>
Time Defined by Bofh
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: well the linear term is covered by TDB, then you have periodic oscillations, which iirc astropy time tries to approximate
<egg|zzz|egg>
so that's one area where astropy time is better than principia's timescale handling I guess :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
(also it does multiprecision which is kind of vital, and I couldn't be arsed)
<egg|zzz|egg>
but it doesn't cover old stretchy UTC! :D