egg changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | <egg> the flashlight is tamper-proof, courtesy of the department of mathematics | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> … one of the other grad students just compared me to nomal O_o | <ferram4>
<egg>
!wpn Majiir
* Qboid
gives Majiir a phosphorus expansion
<UmbralRaptor>
!wpn Soozee
* Qboid
gives Soozee a phi hypothesis
<egg>
d20 -- summon Majiir
<Soozee>
egg: 11
<Majiir>
Turns out that was a DC10
<Qboid>
Majiir: SilverFox left a message for you in #kspmodders [24.03.2017 03:47:21]: "I've been trying to get the level of formality that 을까 is at and ended up finding the 16th honorific: 을래, which is also a question thing, at the same level of honorific as 을까, whatever that may be"
<Qboid>
Majiir: SilverFox left a message for you in #kspmodders [24.03.2017 03:56:17]: "을까 is at the level of 어, you can add 요 and 습니다 forms to it too, but it becomes "을껍니까" but you can't 습니까 the 을래 form, so that's 19 honorifics im at now"
<Qboid>
Majiir: MobileFox left a message for you in #kspmodders [24.03.2017 12:53:51]: "yanno, I think CL iS a better Rihanna than she is a Lady Gaga. She has too much of a bad bitch feel to be Lady Gaga"
<Majiir>
but you stumble over a Qboid
<egg>
ah yes, the canids strike again
<egg>
Majiir: principia release on the new moon!
<egg>
Majiir: we've decided to switch to a lunar release cycle
<egg>
(should the release involve some sort of druidic ceremony? >_>)
<UmbralRaptor>
Blood sacrifice?
<Majiir>
You should start a time-scaled simulation and only release when the planets are aligned
<Majiir>
Switch to the new code with each release
<Majiir>
This is good incentive to never release code where the planets won't align
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: mistletoe?
<Iskierka>
does the number of planets aligned define how major a release is allowed?
<egg>
(wait why are the english words for faucille and serpe the same O_o)
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: the french word for the kind of sickle used to cut mistletoe isn't the same as the word for the kind of sickle that represents the means of production
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: are there papers on social organization of vocaloids though
<UmbralRaptor>
egg: Ask an AI researcher? >_>
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: ah, so the wikipedia article for serpe corresponds to that for billhook; but somehow wiktionary translates serpe to sickle? anyway, in french the thing druids use to cut mistletoe is called serpe, not sure whether in english it should be a billhook, a sickle, or whatever
egg is now known as egg|zzz|egg
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn UmbralRaptor
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptor a practical xenon photothyristor
<egg|phone|egg>
!wpn
* Qboid
gives egg|phone|egg a Brillouin comma
* UmbralRaptor
assumes that GG has a use for that photothyristor
<kmath>
<TheStrangeLog> An educator will no longer get the option to teach their student about their area of expertise if the student is dead
<egg|phone|egg>
????❓
<UmbralRaptor>
!u ????❓
<Qboid>
U+1F406 LEOPARD (?)
<Qboid>
U+1F404 COW (?)
<Qboid>
U+1F406 LEOPARD (?)
<Qboid>
U+2753 BLACK QUESTION MARK ORNAMENT (❓)
<Qboid>
U+1F52D TELESCOPE (?)
<UmbralRaptor>
There are currently bits of cloud falling onto the ground, so not really.
<egg|phone|egg>
Nah, trying to express ANBO with emoji
<UmbralRaptor>
Ah
<UmbralRaptor>
UK flag, FR flag, Cow, Telescope?
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Majiir is now known as Snoozee
* UmbralRaptor
is fairly certain that the same (deterministic) code is giving different values on different computers.
<UmbralRaptor>
AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
<UmbralRaptor>
...also, why am I sitting alone in a half-darkened apparement debugging stellar spectra code on a Friday night?
UmbralRaptor is now known as NomalRaptor
<NomalRaptor>
>_<
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<whitequark>
egg|phone|egg: um
<whitequark>
how do you send a message to someone who's offline
<whitequark>
was there a bot command
<egg|phone|egg>
!Tell whitequark good morning
<Qboid>
egg|phone|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<whitequark>
!tell GreeningGalaxy please don't ever use MAPP gas with anything other than a torch designed for MAPP gas.
<Qboid>
whitequark: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid>
whitequark: egg|phone|egg left a message for you in #kspacademia [25.03.2017 08:00:33]: "good morning"
<egg|phone|egg>
!Wpn whitequark
* Qboid
gives whitequark a first/follow jellied compass
egg|zzz|egg is now known as egg|breakfast|egg
egg|breakfast|egg is now known as egg
<egg>
whitequark: which OS do you use for KSP?
<egg>
(if it's Windows principia works, if it's Linux I know the unit tests pass, but I haven't tried the mod in-game, sometimes I screw up linking, if it's Macintosh there's no build because I haven't heard from our Macintosh builder in ages)
<whitequark>
egg: linux
<egg>
whitequark: ok, so there's a chance it'll work (assuming I didn't screw up the makefile)
<egg>
(or something else: I had a linux-specific bug once because an uninitialized variable was always 0ed by MSVC and not clang)
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<egg>
VSOP?
<Qboid>
egg: [VSOP] => Variations Séculaires des Orbites Planétaires
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<egg>
!wpn ferram4
* Qboid
gives ferram4 a x-ray goose
<egg>
ferram4: currently preparing for the new moon^W release
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<egg>
so, release name idea for the M releases: ᠮᠢᠨᠭᠭᠠᠲᠦ
<egg>
this is properly formatted vertically of course :D
<Iskierka>
how far in advance are you planning exactly?
<egg>
Iskierka: the only thing we have completely planned is the set of C releases, that goes into early 2018
<egg>
but ildly thinking about silly version names is fun :-p
<egg>
hmm, we have a step in the releasing process that says " The executable runs. This takes a long time, 3-4 times longer than without instrumentation. Have a cup of coffee.
<egg>
"
<egg>
we had tea instead
<egg>
will the release still work? D:
<whitequark>
you may never know
<egg>
whitequark: why?
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<egg>
Thomas: GreeningGalaxy: whitequark: Norgg: can one of you test that the Linux build of Cardano works? binaries are available here: https://goo.gl/BCjxaF
<Thomas>
I dont have a linux anymore
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<GreeningGalaxy>
I don't have a KSP anymore
<Qboid>
GreeningGalaxy: whitequark left a message for you in #kspacademia [25.03.2017 08:16:59]: "please don't ever use MAPP gas with anything other than a torch designed for MAPP gas."
<GreeningGalaxy>
sigh fiiiiine
<whitequark>
you can, though, use a MAPP torch with butane gas afaik
egg is now known as egg|taxes|egg
<GreeningGalaxy>
purely hypothetically speaking, what would be the first thing to go wrong if you fed MAPP gas into the wrong kind of torch?
<GreeningGalaxy>
and then tried to light it, assuming something didn't go wrong before even then.
<egg|taxes|egg>
!wpn GreeningGalaxy
* Qboid
gives GreeningGalaxy a Riemann multimeter
egg|taxes|egg is now known as egg
<egg>
!wpn whitequark
* Qboid
gives whitequark a pulsed dodecahedron
<egg>
!wpn Iskierka
* Qboid
gives Iskierka a polynomial dip pen
<egg>
Iskierka: that's the second dip pen Qboid has given you in a few days; does it know that you like pens?
<GreeningGalaxy>
!wpn
* Qboid
gives GreeningGalaxy a balance
<Iskierka>
unknown. though I do not actually own any dip pens
<egg>
whitequark: so, FYI, the link above should give you Cardano, changelog is https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/wiki/Change-Log#cardano. I will officially release (forum post etc.) on the new moon (or whenever I'm awake close to the new moon), but you should be able to use that in the mean time already (do tell us if there are issues with the build)
<UmbralRaptor>
The loading screen seems to be somewhat confused by i3's approach to windowing.
<UmbralRaptor>
Woo, segfault. >_<
<egg>
ow
<egg>
uh, do you have a trace of sorts?
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: when did it segfault?
<UmbralRaptor>
It's a screen thing, and during the loading.
<UmbralRaptor>
Got it to run now.
<UmbralRaptor>
The music on the title screen is lagging.
<UmbralRaptor>
Load average: 2.07 (I have 2 cores, so...)
<UmbralRaptor>
81 C CPU, menus lagging badly.
<UmbralRaptor>
Not going to bother to see what it's like in flight or VAB.
<UmbralRaptor>
>_<
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: ok, do you see the PRI/NCI/PIA icon in the space centre scene though
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: and if you click on it do you see the ugly principia UI
<UmbralRaptor>
I gave up before starting a new game.
<egg>
ah :-p
<UmbralRaptor>
If the *menus* maxed out my CPU...
<egg>
yeah
<UmbralRaptor>
Also, that was to see if stock KSP would run. I, uh, don't have Cardano downloaded.
* UmbralRaptor
stares at github.
* UmbralRaptor
wonders what sort of dark magic is required to build the Cardano release.
* UmbralRaptor
sobs.
<Iskierka>
mine can run stock but apparently at some point apt decided to update the nvidia drivers which breaks compatibility with bumblebee cause they're naming the drivers stupid things that are different every release so bb can't find them
<Iskierka>
there we go
<UmbralRaptor>
Hrm. I'm using old ATI (yes, ATI, not AMD) card.
* Iskierka
decides to just note changes required rather than try hold the drivers which could go bad: find+replace in /etc/bumblebee/bumblebee.conf, dpkg-reconfigure bbswitch
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<Iskierka>
egg: principia UI displays by default and is ... inverted off the screen, or something?
<egg>
Iskierka: uuh what do you mean? O_o
<Iskierka>
ah, DLL failed to load error appears later
<egg>
Iskierka: that's expected
<egg>
Iskierka: it's because it tries to load principia.dll as a managed dll, which it is not
<egg>
Iskierka: but what do you mean about the UI?
<Iskierka>
it does mention libraries are required which are not installed currently
<Iskierka>
was attempting to screenshot but it disappeared and refused to return after a misclick into SPH. restarting (with libraries requested)
<Iskierka>
the UI is not borken with libraries apt-ed
<Iskierka>
so let's just launch something with infinite fuel and see what happens
<egg>
Iskierka: oh, glad to see that the missing lib warning worked and was useful!
<UmbralRaptor>
I might be stuck with software rendering for OpenGL for some rason, though.
<Iskierka>
have one of the principia navballs in flight scene, am at reasonable FPS with a tiny 6-part probe, UI appears, now launching to spess
<egg>
Iskierka: wheee \o/
<Iskierka>
... is unstable, should probably have installed MJ
<Iskierka>
hrm. MJ doesn't want to work but that's an unrelated thing. ... might've forgotten to install MM
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: to build the cardano release it's <dependencies magic>, make release
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: but you might need a bird
<Iskierka>
there we go
<Iskierka>
mostly green clock on ascent with the comsat Lx rocket
<Iskierka>
trajectory appears correctly and the navball design switches, though the predicted kerbin impact appears to be at the sub-surface periapsis
<egg>
Iskierka: yes, that's how we do it
<egg>
we predict an impact when the Pe occurs below the surface, because that's lazy-but-works :-p
<Iskierka>
fair nuff. Not sure what's expected to not work so just going through with stuff :p
<egg>
sure
<egg>
does flight planning appear to work?
<egg>
and the various reference frames for plotting?
<Iskierka>
will test once in in orbit
<egg>
good idea :D
<Iskierka>
reference frames ... I presume are correct? and flight planning with random poking has produced a 14 day plan that will end up at 172 km from mun surface for 761 m/s
<UmbralRaptor>
egg: Obviously I should apply for a grant.
* UmbralRaptor
recalls doing just that back in 2015, and not getting an explicit acceptence or rejection.
<Iskierka>
... something decided to attempt to fly the manoeuvre 20 minutes early and I'm unsure how to tell the flight planning to use the changed orbit
<Iskierka>
flight planner disagrees with KSP burn time estimate by 10 seconds (if 80.7 in FP)
<Iskierka>
it is yellow clock in orbit with the FP open
<Iskierka>
155% CPU on one thread, 45% on another
<egg>
Iskierka: yeah, that seems to all be as eggspected
<egg>
Iskierka: thank you very much for your testing btw
<egg>
!wpn Iskierka
* Qboid
gives Iskierka a toasted Eva
<egg>
!wpn Iskierka
* Qboid
gives Iskierka a recursive-descent falcon
<Iskierka>
neither the cutoff countdown given nor adding 10 seconds actually ended up on quite the trajectory predicted though. deviation wormed in somewhere
<SnoopJeDi>
recursive falcons, eh?
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<Iskierka>
performance in map view seems to have significantly degraded but is fine in spess view
<Iskierka>
possibly too much detail in the history trajectory? Helps a lot if you clear it with killing the length
<Iskierka>
entertaining: enabling patched conics and watching them wibble in timewarp
<egg>
When the time comes we'll definitely have Διόφαντος, probably Δημόκριτος too
* soundnfury
is looking forward to Εὔδοξος
<egg>
!wpn e_14159
* Qboid
gives e_14159 a cosmological astronomer
<egg>
!wpn UmbralRaptor
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptor a mu kindle
<egg>
!wpn Iskierka
* Qboid
gives Iskierka an iron Халатников counter
<egg>
!wpn whitequark
* Qboid
gives whitequark a zircon field extension
<Iskierka>
e_14159, ubuntu's nvidia drivers recently started installing to separate directories but the people who choose what bb build to put on apt still choose one that just targets "nvidia", so have to edit config and rebuild the bumblebee package for target, and have bumblebee itself held back to a version that actually works internally (since there's a couple other problems with the compatibility too)
<Iskierka>
egg: alright, though it might be nice to have an option to swap in the names for what KSP uses. And maybe with history to limit path resolution somehow, skip nodes that are close in time to make it more like the prediction paths
<Iskierka>
(Since I presume it is just a case of too many nodes/much detail, given if I timewarp a lot I don't build up as much lag for a given history size)
<Iskierka>
this low stability orbit is also at the point that in a burn 6h from now, within a mm/s are at least one path to, within 15 days, kerbin escape, two to mun impact, and a few that don't end up going anywhere just yet
<egg>
Iskierka: yeah, the history thing needs decimation; we want to do things properly and decimate it according to rendered curvature, but this will take time and won't be in the next release (though the things we'll have to do for vessel-centred frames will help pave the way for it). For predictions we use a variable-step integrator, so the points come out closer to what's needed
<egg>
Iskierka: for the names in the Frenet trihedron, I'd rather stick with what we have; maybe I can use the stock KSP *icons* in addition to my words though
<egg>
Iskierka: as for unstable mun orbits, yup, you have a chaotic system :D
<egg>
Iskierka: feel free to send screenshots btw, I like looking at trajectories people come up with :D
<Iskierka>
a << mm/s (in a periapse burn!) is impressive though
<egg>
yeah
<egg>
Iskierka: but remember the retrobop analysis
<egg>
where I had millimetric *position* errors getting amplified to complete dephasing within half a decade
<Iskierka>
am collecting screenshots as I see how long this thing's very limited fuel can keep it in a very marginal orbit
<egg>
(longer timescales, but those are celestial bodies)
<egg>
Iskierka: periapsis burns should also affect things more I think? something something Oberth? I'm not sure, I'm bad at physics actually >_>
<Iskierka>
Apoapse would change the periapse velocity more which I feel like would mean more sum position -> force error
<Iskierka>
so for absolute value of dV I think periapse should be less sensitive
<egg>
hm
<Iskierka>
but it may take a bit more analysis than a tired brain to confirm that
<egg>
I keep getting confused by the oberth effect
<egg>
Iskierka: but if your base velocity is greater, the same change in velocity will increase your kinetic energy more
<Iskierka>
but it's not necessarily the KE that will introduce more error
<Iskierka>
but I'm now confused and headachey (latter probably not related)
<egg>
well, the energy is the thing that constrains your orbit though
<egg>
e.g. can be what makes it stable (or at least bounded)
<egg>
Iskierka: or alternatively (because impulsive burns are a fiction), if you go faster, the same force for the same time will exert more work (because you went further while burning)
<egg>
classial mechanics is dark magic sometimes
* egg
bad at physical intuition
<Iskierka>
I believe relativity states you're always burning the same distance as far as matters. See: rocket engine efficiency is independent of any velocity measurement bar the exhaust - is relative to the rocket-exhaust system
<Iskierka>
and I've managed to end up in a weirdly stable period considering it occasionally changes my plane and ascending node by the better part of a radian
<egg>
:D
<Iskierka>
okay, there's an escape to prevent
<egg>
Iskierka: hmm, but once we're considering your kinetic energy (in some frame) and whether you're at Pe or Ap (fast or slow), we've fixed a reference frame, so things aren't frameless anymore---tbh I'm just looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberth_effect, but it seems to make more sense than when I last looked at it
<egg>
(arguably considerations of energy are slightly academic when you're in a truly weakly-bound orbit by Hill's criterion)
<egg>
!seen UmbralRaptor
<Qboid>
egg: I last saw UmbralRaptor on [25.03.2017 19:31:32] in #SpaceX saying: "..."
<egg>
O_o
<Iskierka>
but in terms of the energy a thing has we can't just make up frames like that because the numbers don't actually add up. Which can be confirmed by trying to estimate the power of a rocket using surface-relative velocities instead of local
<Iskierka>
which is kinda where the oberth oddity comes in, power and energy differ weirdly
<Iskierka>
... so maybe the longer distance applies but it's dubious
<Iskierka>
energy is silly
<egg>
energy does matter though
<egg>
stability by Hill's criterion is a useful thing
<Iskierka>
it's a weird emergent property of trying to integrate motions and reactions and such
<egg>
yes, but it does give you some constraints
<egg>
e.g. "whatever happens you're not escaping"
<Iskierka>
except for the fact you can have very unpredictable energy exchanges between two bodies
<Iskierka>
two other bodies, rather
<egg>
beyond the CR3BP it's madness
<egg>
but in the CR3BP energy is still very useful (and plenty of things are the CR3BP in practice)
<Iskierka>
unrecoverable (no dV remaining) collision on day 119
<Iskierka>
now let's see how happy imgur is to have this many images at once
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<Iskierka>
aaand I tried to make an imgur gallery and it's completely fecked up the order
<Iskierka>
UmbralRaptor, for what it's worth, with 4 (logical) cores I'm only getting two used, so that's evidently the limit where you just need more singlethread
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<Iskierka>
since several were taken in bunches and would be confusing if they're not combined with alternate perspectives
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<Iskierka>
first is the weird UI-inverted that seems to just be undefined behaviour from libc++ missing
<Iskierka>
but other than history, runs fine in this linux
<Iskierka>
while the curvature-correctness method is obviously best, something like a similar adjustment box to limit how close together drawn history steps can be would make a nice intermediate that would make it a lot more playable. and mean it's up to the player if they care about the curve accuracy or not
<Iskierka>
other than the performance hit there it'd be pretty much fine to be integrated into any KSP game, even heavily modded
<egg>
Iskierka: nice trajectories!
<egg>
Iskierka: have you looked at them in other reference frames? (KMB, MCKA, MCMF?)
<Iskierka>
used the flight planner for a couple capture burns to get the stability to not-immediately-gone then controlled it with just simple pro/retrograde burns
<Iskierka>
looked at different references during capture but not for the rest of the flight
<egg>
yup, it's easy to tune by seat-of-the-pants
<egg>
RCS is great at that too
<egg>
(because when you're talking mm/s that's what you want)
<egg>
Iskierka: re histories lagging, any kind of decimation would be quite a bit of work to implement; we're well aware that it is a big issue though, and we'll keep it in mind (e.g. the thing we'll do for rendez-vous utils will facilitate it)
* egg
really likes the look of this weakly-bound orbit :D
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: WSB \o/
<UmbralRaptor>
Iskierka: 2 physical cores (and 2 logical because this system is from the hyperthreading interregnum)
<Iskierka>
so you have as much parallelisation as can be utilised (according to this system, at least)
<egg>
yeah, KSP doesn't parallelize, and atm neither do we
<egg>
(we will, eventually)
<Iskierka>
presumably based on my utilisation, you're at least parallel to KSP itself?
<egg>
nah
<Iskierka>
hrm. then how do I get 155 on one thread and 45 on another ...
* UmbralRaptor
obviously should learn how to run Principia without KSP.
<egg>
maybe there are things on your computer that are neither KSP nor principia?
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: contribute a curses-based UI for principia? >_>
<Iskierka>
egg: htop gives load of individual threads, these are the two highest each threads of KSP
<egg>
hm
<egg>
Iskierka: we do thread when saving the game
<Iskierka>
maybe they parallelised a little bit?
<egg>
maybe Unity did?
<Iskierka>
yeah, this was extremely consistent
<Iskierka>
definitely not a saving thing
<egg>
yeah
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: oh yeah, that /topic is filling up
<UmbralRaptor>
There are many things on my computer that are not KSP or Principia.
<UmbralRaptor>
eg: sneks
<UmbralRaptor>
Oh, right. the /topic
<egg>
sneksneksneksneksnek
<UmbralRaptor>
...5? Is that what happens when you try to use 3 and 2 at the same time?
<UmbralRaptor>
I guess the question is what quotes to move to the gist.
* Iskierka
wonders if depressurised fish is floating around somewhere
<egg>
Iskierka: O_o
<Iskierka>
I think it was an unofficial thing
<Iskierka>
when talking about the floating-on-water fishtanks
<egg>
hmm, I don't think I remember?
<UmbralRaptor>
I think lizzie recorded it for posterity?
<egg>
but... Lizzie is no more
<Iskierka>
did anyone record lizzie for posterity?
<egg>
ah <GreeningGalaxy> `tweet <Iskra> I'm not sure, never tried to depressurise a fish before
<Iskierka>
I suspect I have logs of it but I'm too lazy to grep
<egg>
!wpn Iskierka
* Qboid
gives Iskierka a lead ␆/reactor hybrid
<egg>
!wpn UmbralRaptor
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptor a graphite faithful torch
<egg>
!wpn -add:adj pressurized
<Qboid>
egg: Adjective added!
<egg>
!wpn -add:adj depressurized
<Qboid>
egg: Adjective added!
<egg>
!wpn -add:wpn fish
<Qboid>
egg: Weapon already added!
<Iskierka>
!wpn -add:adj fish-compatible
<Qboid>
Iskierka: Adjective added!
UmbralRaptor changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> … one of the other grad students just compared me to nomal O_o | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer.
<UmbralRaptor>
!wpn egg
* Qboid
gives egg a serpentine delta function
* UmbralRaptor
put the flashlight in the gist.
<UmbralRaptor>
uh, that doesn't count as tampering, right?