<soundnfury>
whitequark: I'll quote esr at whomever I wish
<bofh>
soundnfury: that's unnecessarily mean.
<whitequark>
soundnfury: welcome to /ignore
<whitequark>
bofh: you could argue that xen qualifies as a microkernel, sort of, sometimes
<whitequark>
xen with unikernels is a microkernel if you squint at it.
<whitequark>
but instead of RPC you have... IP
<soundnfury>
whitequark: be that way; I'll be over here with the dread reposturgeon
<bofh>
I guess. It's hard thinking of xen as anything other than a virtualization system
<whitequark>
is it still a microkernel if it requires linux to run?
<whitequark>
and other philosophical questions
<bofh>
LOL
<bofh>
going to go with "no" on that one
<whitequark>
I mean, compare to seL4
<whitequark>
which most people would put into "definitely a microkernel" camp
<whitequark>
but in real world it will usually be used with linux anyway!
<whitequark>
you'd IOMMU-passthrough most non-essential devices into the linux instance and run your crappy linux apps there
<whitequark>
isolating the mission-critical parts in seL4 land itself
<whitequark>
(that's how seL4copter was set up; DoD had a red team that couldn't do anything despite having root on the inner linux)
<bofh>
well yes, but there's a difference between inner linux and outer linux
<whitequark>
I thought dom0 isn't special in any way except having a hold of most devices by default plus access to management interface
<whitequark>
like it is definitely running in a VM
<whitequark>
it allocates memory through Xen and so on
<bofh>
"isn't special in any way except being the thing that has the default device access ability"
<bofh>
that's, uh, pretty special
<bofh>
like at the end of the day the main thing distinguishing the hypervisor from the guest instance is that one has direct access to hardware devices
<whitequark>
mmh
<bofh>
(this is at least my perception, feel free to correct me)
<whitequark>
not *default*, I think?
<whitequark>
like if you have IOMMU then dom0 just gets all the forwards because that's what you usually want
<whitequark>
not because the design of Xen inherently requires dom0 to have access to all hardware
<bofh>
ahh.
<bofh>
well okay IOMMU simplifies a lot of things
<bofh>
related, why did it take so long for those to exist in even server hardware?
<bofh>
like I feel they weren't popular until at least 2004-2005
<whitequark>
I don't think we had hardware-assisted virtualization in 2004-2005
<whitequark>
vt-x is 2006
<whitequark>
... I suppose v86 counts as hardware-assisted virtualization
<whitequark>
technically
<whitequark>
oh wow
<whitequark>
bofh: I just discovered that Intel Iris+ supports *time-sharing* virtualization
<bofh>
wait what
<bofh>
*boggle*
<whitequark>
looks like for VT-d to work you need: chipset support, firmware support, FLR, MSI...
<whitequark>
so I suppose just the usual legacy crap prevented it from being very useful
regex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<whitequark>
(might even be MSI-X, not sure)
<egg>
whitequark: on an unrelated note, have you managed to put some food inside of you? you probably should >_>
<whitequark>
egg: nope
<whitequark>
I'm refactoring some C++
<egg>
I have done that today and I can confirm that this is not a nutritive activity
<egg>
anyway, I should sleep
<egg>
goodnight!
<UmbralRaptor>
egg: Uh, I'm not that familiar with Sex. I think there are some distant galaxy clusters there, but try someone who lives in the southern hemisphere?
<egg>
(and try to eat at some point in the foreseeable future)
<whitequark>
it's... very addictive
<whitequark>
the C++ that is
* UmbralRaptor
wonders what the Calorie per KLOC ratio is.
* Iskierka
wonders if she missed a line somewhere
* Iskierka
should probably also go to bed though
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: wait, don't you get to see Sex from where you are? you are further south than I am, right?
<UmbralRaptor>
Well, sorta. I had to grab a sky chart.
<bofh>
can confirm, the NON-MAGNETIC sticker is there IRL
<bofh>
(also speaking of things that started out old and got more old: getting escorted off LANL premises every night b/c foreign national)
<UmbralRaptor>
...someone stuck a "non-magnetic" sticker on a giant magnet?
<bofh>
(I will not miss that)
<bofh>
so I suspect that's either a joke or refers to the material of the outside of the magnet
<bofh>
then again the field is surprisingly well contained on that one
<bofh>
like I think it's rated for <1.5T outside from a few cm away (the peak field is 60T for about a second)
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: so, from the Snowder blog, Population III stars, and a dim galaxy edge-on; so in a smallish scope, Sex is indeed as boring as it looks.
<bofh>
egg: had to look up what you meant and yeah asterism does apparently mean different things in astronomy and materials science
<bofh>
was very confused for a second
<UmbralRaptor>
bofh: Also
<UmbralRaptor>
Er, also editing paragraphs! ⁂
<UmbralRaptor>
!u ⁂
<Qboid>
U+2042 ASTERISM (⁂)
<Qboid>
U+200F RIGHT-TO-LEFT MARK ()
<bofh>
ooh, handy to know
<UmbralRaptor>
egg: If you're looking for Pop III stars, may I suggest an 8 m scope instead of an 8 cm? >_>;;
<bofh>
also damn some nice Enceladus pics complete with cryovolcano on this Cassini downlink pass
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: indeed, also you have a giant spider next to you again in that emoticon
<UmbralRaptor>
If that's a spider, then are its mandibles glowing?
* soundnfury
gives UmbralRaptor a pilcrow
<UmbralRaptor>
soundnfury: I feel like that should let me use a paragraph as a polearm.
<soundnfury>
!wpn -add:wpn pilcrow
<Qboid>
soundnfury: Weapon added!
<soundnfury>
(gmta)
<soundnfury>
the paragraph _is_ mightier than the glaive...
<soundnfury>
such colour, many lighting, so banding
<bofh>
gotta love specular reflections in a shoddy 256-colour palette
<pizzaoverhead>
Very 90s-futuristic.
<egg>
bofh: so yeah, Cassini's been around for as long as I can remember, pretty much literally
<egg>
---and now it's going to end :'(
<bofh>
yeah I'm quite sad about that
<egg>
what's the next outer solar system thing
<egg>
JUICE?
<Qboid>
egg: [JUICE] => Jupiter ICy moons Explorer
<bofh>
I don't actually know.
<bofh>
like part of the issue is that Jupiter sort of moved out of the way of things so it's not terribly useful for gravity assists to planets beyond it for another 2-3 decades
<bofh>
which really irritates me since I want an ice giant orbiter damnit
<egg>
there's JUICE in 22 arriving in 30 to Jupiter and in 33 to Ganymede orbit and help those year numbers are too big
<bofh>
wow
<bofh>
also man one of the best bits of last year was watching the Juno orbital insertion
<bofh>
wait, Galileo took 6 years and Juno took 5. 8 seems a bit long.
<bofh>
Are they not doing any grav assists with JUICE or something?
<Qboid>
egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<egg>
!acr -add:GALA GAnymede Laser Altimeter
<Qboid>
egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<egg>
!acr -add:RIME Radar for Icy Moons Exploration
<Qboid>
egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<bofh>
oh so the EVEE insanity is b/c they don't have a budget for a large rocket
<bofh>
so they need that to get sufficient delta-v
<egg>
well it's an Ariane 5
<egg>
that's not puny
<egg>
and it's an esa mission, so that's their biggest launcher
<egg>
unless they ask for trouble and a proton
<bofh>
well yes, but couldn't they have convinced NASA to let them use a Titan IV/Centaur or something?
<whitequark>
bofh: wait what?!
<whitequark>
2-3 decades?!
<whitequark>
that sucks
<egg>
bofh: the thing used to be an ESA/NASA mission, then NASA got Congressified, and ESA got sick of it
<egg>
!acr -add:RIME Radar for Icy Moons Exploration
<Qboid>
egg: I already know an explanation for RIME! (Update it with !acr -update:RIME Radar for Icy Moons Exploration)
<egg>
!acr -add:J-MAG JUICE MAGnetometer
<Qboid>
egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<egg>
!acr -add:PEP Particle Environment Package
<Qboid>
egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<bofh>
whitequark: egg: so there was a wikipedia page that listed times when outer planets lined up for gravity assists being viable
<bofh>
but I can't seem to find it
<egg>
hmm
<egg>
bofh: oh that reminds me, did you see that ESA posting about that competition for global trajectory optimization?
<bofh>
(actually Uranus I think had a time in 2030 when Jupiter would be usable, but that would require building and launching the probe in like 3 years)
<bofh>
nope!
<egg>
apparently that competition is a thing
<egg>
sounds fun :-p
<egg>
!acr -add:RPWI Radio & Plasma Wave Investigation
<Qboid>
egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<egg>
!acr -add:3GM Gravity & Geophysics of jupiter and Galilean Moons
<Qboid>
egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<bofh>
though like ORNL is finally making Pu-238 at non-glacial speeds so that's at least approaching feasible now
<egg>
!acr -add:PRIDE Planetary Radio Interferometer & Doppler Experiment
<Qboid>
egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<bofh>
also like you know that aphorism "if con- is the opposite of pro-, what is the opposite of progress?..."
<bofh>
well it's fucking true
<whitequark>
lol
<egg>
bofh: I have ceased have any expectations from NASA tbh, even before this administration
<bofh>
so like I ceased to have expectations from NASA since GWB's admin
<egg>
ESA seems to have a whole lot more stability in its projects
<egg>
not sure how the chinese work (in mysterious ways), since documentation on their plans is scarce
<egg>
!acr -add:ORNL Oak Ridge National Laboratory
<Qboid>
egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<egg>
also wow there are a lot of acronyms; the OS talk above had some but I didn't follow that closely
<bofh>
yeah appologies
<egg>
it's fine :-p
<egg>
I'm just permanently impressed at the amount of silly acronyms that get produced
<Qboid>
egg: [OSIRIS] => Optical, Spectroscopic, and Infrared Remote Imaging System
<bofh>
on an unrelated note it continues to amuse me that we have so many spacecraft orbiting Mars that RF interference/congestion among them is actually a thing
<egg>
oh? neat
<whitequark>
amazing
<egg>
soo more than an hour ago I said that I should sleep :-p
<kmath_>
<nascom1> Showing that even around Mars there can be conjestion (of the RF type). Poor @MAVEN2Mars first showing clean gets s… https://t.co/kfXKkB8fle
<egg|zzz|egg>
whitequark: also try putting food inside of you eventually
<bofh>
^
<bofh>
I also recommend food at some point
* whitequark
sighs
<whitequark>
but I just started a new round of refactoring C++
<egg|zzz|egg>
>_>
<whitequark>
lemme just refactor the rest of solvespace and I'll get food?!
<bofh>
again the nutritive value of C++ is questionable :P
<bofh>
fine
<egg|zzz|egg>
"the rest of solvespace" uh
<egg|zzz|egg>
how big is this codebase again
<bofh>
fairly large
<whitequark>
40kloc
<egg|zzz|egg>
does that include tests?
<whitequark>
no
<whitequark>
neither it includes vendored libs
<bofh>
like in theory the human body can survive a few weeks w/o food if you make sure to handle micronutrients
<whitequark>
solvespace is incredibly small for a cad
<whitequark>
bofh: right
<bofh>
mind you the few days it takes for your neurons to pullstart the enzymes needed to function on ketones sounds like a very unpleasant time
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: ... please don't give whitequark ideas
<whitequark>
egg|zzz|egg: oh it's nothing particularly new
<whitequark>
i'm aware of ketosis
<egg|zzz|egg>
:-p
<whitequark>
egg|zzz|egg: there's nothing more dangerous (to oneself) than free access to the entirety of pubmed :p
<bofh>
I'd jokingly wonder whether whitequark winds up eating something first or I wind up sleeping first but he has like a good 10 hours head-start
<bofh>
(got 5 hours of sleep last night)
<whitequark>
i'm not a he
<bofh>
er
<bofh>
apologies :(
<bofh>
as for pubmed, just don't try testing arsine poisoning remedies :P
<whitequark>
I'm not *nearly* mad enough to work with arsine
<whitequark>
at least, not without far better PPE
<bofh>
heh, reminds me I still need to find some fluorochemists
<whitequark>
(for the rest of the channel, the gist of it is: you inhale air with like 50ppm of arsine and all your red blood cells instantly explode)
<bofh>
apparently the one lab in Canada that does radical-phase fluorochemistry has an alarm for detecting fluorine leaks
<whitequark>
I feel like that could be a good replacement for those "no trespassing" signs
<whitequark>
"we have an alarm for detecting fluorine leaks"
<bofh>
if you are in the part of the lab that works with the fluorine, you have 30-60 seconds to get out before essentially 5cm thick metal/glass doors slam shut all around
<bofh>
and if you're inside, well enjoy the F2/F-
<bofh>
(you probably won't)
<whitequark>
I recall someone in my high school asked what happens if a human gets exposed to fluorine
<whitequark>
the answer was short: "human fluoride"
<egg|zzz|egg>
whitequark: so, principia has 60431 lines of manually-written C++, including tests; as well as 5047 lines of C#; of the C++, 22282 is tests and 2066 are utilities for tests
<whitequark>
egg|zzz|egg: before i took over solvespace it didn't have tests
<egg|zzz|egg>
so, by you metric... solvespace is still slightly bigger than my KSP mod :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
s/you/your
<Qboid>
egg|zzz|egg meant to say: so, by your metric... solvespace is still slightly bigger than my KSP mod :-p
<egg|zzz|egg>
[my ksp mod is silly]
<whitequark>
solvespace is a very... interconnected codebase
<whitequark>
by which is mean it is goddamn full of spaghetti
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: ?
<bofh>
"...demonstrated the extraordinary oxidative fluorinating ability of KrF2 by using it to prepare IF7 and XeF6"
<egg|zzz|egg>
oh
<egg|zzz|egg>
wait
<egg|zzz|egg>
you're fluorinating *what* ? O_o
<UmbralRaptor>
Yeah, it turns out noble gases don't live up to their rep when faced with fluorine.
<whitequark>
oh god flying with XeF6
<egg|zzz|egg>
flying?
<egg|zzz|egg>
whitequark: what you want to take a tank of the stuff through customs?
<bofh>
"On another occasion on a Saturday morning whilst they were trying to get a KrF2/AuF5 mixture (actually KrF2/[Kr2F3]+[AuF6]-) mixture into solution with HF, the mixture incandesced in the tube and as Gary threw it clear, it exploded leaving him (luckily) without fluorine burns but with a gold-plated hand.
<bofh>
+"*
<whitequark>
egg|zzz|egg: it's from the book
<egg|zzz|egg>
OO_Oo
<UmbralRaptor>
...why is the book $364? Is this one of those Ignition! like things where it's way out of print?
<whitequark>
egg|zzz|egg: also I refuse to handle anything even slightly explosive myself
<whitequark>
I like my fingers and I'm not deluded enough to think I have the necessary discipline or skill
<egg|zzz|egg>
whitequark: oh, you're actually somewhat sane on some aspects :-)
* egg|zzz|egg
still can't quite wrap his head around the dental madness though :-p
<whitequark>
.... why does everyone hang onto that specific thing
<whitequark>
it wasn't even particularly painful
<egg|zzz|egg>
well, self surgery isn't exactly something common is it?
<whitequark>
define surgery
<whitequark>
piercing a nail to drain a hematoma under it counts as "surgery" too under this definition
<bofh>
^
<egg|zzz|egg>
hmm
<bofh>
whitequark: my god this keeps getting more and more insane
<bofh>
like it's not just they got it through customs
<bofh>
they flew it to Strasbourg
<whitequark>
yeah that's what I was referring to
<bofh>
from CANADA
<whitequark>
XeF6 isn't that bad even
<whitequark>
XeO3 is what *really* bothers me
<egg|zzz|egg>
the tooth thing is rather more permanent though?
<whitequark>
like okay they probably don't have enough to breach the plane
<whitequark>
but if the dewar is, the plane is now full of LN2 that rapidly stops being L
<whitequark>
and it's well enough to displace all oxygen inside
<bofh>
so it said dry ice so I hope that's the case
<bofh>
b/c otherwise yeah, a pressurized LN2 dewar is a lot of N2
<whitequark>
this was actually the argument of the airport security for not letting me fly with a canister of R-141b
<bofh>
that's not a wholly unreasonable argument fwiw
<whitequark>
its vapor pressure at the temperature in the luggage compartment is very low
<whitequark>
but yes
<whitequark>
I agreed with them
<bofh>
so yeah it appears all fluorochemists are bonkers
<bofh>
and this is why I need to go talk to them more
<bofh>
(I still can't believe someone thought that O2F2 didn't have enough oxygen so they one-upped it to O3F2, and then someone one-upped that still to O4F2)
<bofh>
I don't *think* anyone's succeeded in making O5F2 yet
<GreeningGalaxy>
well, it's good to have you periodically reminded about what it feels like to look at a link of eggsplanations that are hard to understand.
<egg|zzz|egg>
GreeningGalaxy: nah, but that's bona fide abstract nonsense
<bofh>
I believe wikipedia still describes it as "the real line, except much longer"
<egg|zzz|egg>
that's a good description
<egg|zzz|egg>
:D
<bofh>
(it's ω_1 x [0,1))
<bofh>
oh I should probably mention my undergrad was in pmath, mostly functional analysis. so unfortunately a lot of this is familiar to me.
<whitequark>
ω?
<bofh>
whitequark: first uncountable ordinal
<egg|zzz|egg>
the first infinite ordinal
<whitequark>
is it like ヽ(*・ω・)ﾉ
<bofh>
LOL
<egg|zzz|egg>
uh, right, uncountable
<egg|zzz|egg>
that's _1
* egg|zzz|egg
slaps egg
<egg|zzz|egg>
bofh: well, did a BS and MSc. in math, so I've done that nonsense too :D
<whitequark>
oh i'll just get some fast food
<whitequark>
._.
<egg|zzz|egg>
all those glorious spaces that serve as counterexamples in topology
<egg|zzz|egg>
whitequark: sure, that counts as food, I am confused as to what is conveyed by that emoticon though
<whitequark>
egg|zzz|egg: i *ought* to cook something but am too immersed in C++
<whitequark>
(is "immersion in C++" one of those occasions they have eyewash stations for?)
<egg|zzz|egg>
I was thinking it was a differential geometry thing
<egg|zzz|egg>
whitequark: immersion, submersion, and embedding; sadly embedding doesn't have the same sort of feel to it in english
<whitequark>
(I recall a story about some guy who got immersed in fairly concentrated hydrofluoric acid, and survived, thanks to a particular formulation of a neutralizing solution, even without disability)
<whitequark>
egg|zzz|egg: so if I'm working on a remotely-operated underwater vehicle
<whitequark>
all three are ambiguous
<egg|zzz|egg>
the french word for embedding is plongement, so that also means... basically the same thing as immersion and submersion :D
<whitequark>
lol
<egg|zzz|egg>
nice naming scheme
<whitequark>
also "plongement" sounds totally made-up
<egg|zzz|egg>
very submarine-themed
<egg|zzz|egg>
whitequark: plonger, to submerge (or to dive)
<bofh>
LOL
<bofh>
it does sound totally made up, yes
<egg|zzz|egg>
I guess you could call embeddings divings
<bofh>
02:24 <@egg|zzz|egg> all those glorious spaces that serve as counterexamples in topology
<whitequark>
egg|zzz|egg: it's like if someone tried to make a "simple english" neologism but mostly failed
<bofh>
I still say my favourite name-wise is Cantor's Leaky Tent
<whitequark>
up goer five
<egg|zzz|egg>
whitequark: I gather you speak french?
<whitequark>
egg|zzz|egg: not a word
<egg|zzz|egg>
ah, this isn't a tolstoi novel then
<bofh>
counterexample-wise I'm partial to the Moore plane and the Topologist's sine curve
<UmbralRaptor>
They actually claim to use IR lasers to charge stuff.
<GreeningGalaxy>
I mean, that's not *impossible* but it certainly is insane
<whitequark>
GreeningGalaxy: oh right I wanted to respond to that
<whitequark>
but you left
<whitequark>
GreeningGalaxy: so what I did is I found another install of Debian (that won't boot on this machine because... reasons)
<whitequark>
union-mounted its /usr *below* the erased /usr
<whitequark>
chrooted into it then aptitude reinstall $(dpkg --get-selections)
<GreeningGalaxy>
wow
<whitequark>
this naturally overwrote everything in the /usr, and of course the writes went to the erased one
<GreeningGalaxy>
that's clever.
<whitequark>
I had to do this from memory because I had neither inernet access nor a working smartphone (for... reasons)
<whitequark>
that part was annoying
<whitequark>
also mounting all this from initrd.
<GreeningGalaxy>
The worst tale of linux woe I have is losing my graphics drivers to an update and not finding out until I rebooted, while working on an important project, very late at night.
<whitequark>
so I use LVM
<whitequark>
(I assume you know what is LVM)
<whitequark>
once I discovered pvmove I became determined to find out if pvmove can be used on my root partiion
<GreeningGalaxy>
I do, and I checked the box during install, but I'm not very good at operating it.
<whitequark>
to move it to an USB drive
<whitequark>
I haven't realized that the port is flaky.
<GreeningGalaxy>
oh.
<whitequark>
okay. sure. rebooting. it's sorta messed up
<whitequark>
then I discover that LVM actually puts its metadata in string form near the beginning of the PV
<whitequark>
cool
<whitequark>
I do this again sometime later and discover that it just doesn't actually work for some reason, even if the USB port isn't flaky
<whitequark>
the good thing was that I already knew how to recover :p
<whitequark>
GreeningGalaxy: for added fun I suggest porting linux to something.
<whitequark>
I ported linux to a video ad once
<bofh>
heh
<bofh>
oh god that
<GreeningGalaxy>
eek
<bofh>
(best linux port)
<GreeningGalaxy>
oh yeah, once a kernel update (4.4 to 4.5 under Arch) did something dreadful to my mediocre HP laptop that made it look like the HDD was dying. It started giving me the same { DRDY ERR } { ABRT } things that my old old Dell laptop sometimes gets when its HDD runs over too many bad sectors.
<whitequark>
>Arch
<GreeningGalaxy>
wait, actually that was the OpenSuSE install first. I thought it was a corrupted install and nuked it, and then it claimed the Arch one too.
<bofh>
Arch is somewhat of a tire fire
<GreeningGalaxy>
I completely agree
<GreeningGalaxy>
I use Manjaro now. That has me on a more reasonable update schedule (more incremental, less immediate) but still reasonably up-to-date. And I rather like pacman.
<bofh>
Hm, curious what the worst thing I did to a system.
<bofh>
Okay, overwriting part of the UEFI NVRAM via poking all of the i2c space to see what was there was *annoying*, but only took like 6 hours to fix
<whitequark>
did you have to desolder the SPI flash
<bofh>
(and I swear at least one of those was just me screaming internally on how it loads code out of a battery EEPROM and executes it in SMM to determine charge levels and alert timers)
<GreeningGalaxy>
(I'll be back in about 30 minutes, gotta go home)
<whitequark>
oh it was EEPROM
<whitequark>
also WHAT
<whitequark>
IT DOES FUCKING WHAT
<whitequark>
CHRIST
<whitequark>
wait
<bofh>
so like I overwrote more than one thing
<whitequark>
... is it signed
<whitequark>
because we don't have an overabundance of SMM exploits
<bofh>
I have no idea, it's a 1K EEPROM
<bofh>
I assume this is specific to that line of shitty Asus knockoff netbooks
<bofh>
I could try to desolder it tomorrow and see what the heck is in it
<whitequark>
that would be interesting
<bofh>
(I cracked that battery open when trying to resurrect it due to charge controller chip failure)
<whitequark>
to dmytro oleksyuk i think
<bofh>
(holy flying fuck laptop batteries are INSANE)
<bofh>
like I think it was uh
<bofh>
superglue, then 3 layers of ultrasonic welding
<whitequark>
that's completely within my expectations
<bofh>
I basically had to use a hacksaw to start the cut then a knife to open the rest of it
GreeningGalaxy has quit [Ping timeout: 206 seconds]
<bofh>
like jeez I'm pretty sure I've run across gloveboxes/anoxic storage chambers that were less hermetically sealed.
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<GreeningGalaxy>
re: Linux distros, basically, I like my Plasma 5, I don't like Kubuntu (and my current main hardware is 32-bit, so no Neon for me), and I have enough Stockholm syndrome to think that I like managing Arch-based systems as much as Debian-based ones. Thus, I use Manjaro.
<GreeningGalaxy>
My HP laptop (which I don't use because its chassis is so shitty) still has an Arch install on it, but it's broken and when I boot it up it's into Debian.
<whitequark>
GreeningGalaxy: oh, same
<whitequark>
i use plasma 5 with i3wm
<whitequark>
i start it with a custom .xsession does this count as arch enough
<whitequark>
it's actually remarkable how well this works
<whitequark>
at this point it needs basically zero hax
<whitequark>
it used to need more but then kde advanced
<GreeningGalaxy>
cool
<GreeningGalaxy>
Yeah, KDE really made a big step at some point there. People still have the impression that the desktop environment is necessarily a resource hog, but I have mine (not modified much, still using Kwin even for compositing) running comfortably on an old Toughbook CF-30 with the lowest-end integrated Intel graphics around
<whitequark>
I don't use compositing
<whitequark>
(because well i3)
<whitequark>
can't say how much of a resource hog it is but scrollin gon a 3200x1800 display isnt happening without acceleration
<GreeningGalaxy>
sure, I should probably bother myself to move away from it, especially since my touchpad is so bad and I never have space for a mouse.
<GreeningGalaxy>
I don't have any effects enabled, or even Vsync, but I mean it's still a stacking window manager
<GreeningGalaxy>
and I'm still on ye olde 1024x768 so I suppose that helps
<GreeningGalaxy>
one of the more annoying things about this machine is that it has no good way of scrolling. the touchpad is not only strictly single-touch, but apparently also strictly relative-only, so there's no provision for either two-finger or edge scrolling.
<whitequark>
gross
<GreeningGalaxy>
I've been toying with the idea of trying to install some kind of mechanical scrolling thing into the case next to it.
<GreeningGalaxy>
or maybe some kind of thin touch sensor to act like edge scroll would, to avoid having to cut through the chassis
<whitequark>
mmm
<whitequark>
is the chassis plastic or metal
<whitequark>
also how good are you with embedded
<whitequark>
if it's plastic i'm thinking a vusb stack on an attiny, mounted on a kapton pcb, with capacitive sensing
<whitequark>
should be fairly robust and the HID part is trivially implementable
<whitequark>
mounting outside of the case seems unlikely to survive for long except with very careful use
<GreeningGalaxy>
just starting out. I learn this kind of thing fast because I end up spending all my time on it, but I got to programming a Nucleo in mbed for the first time last weekend.
<GreeningGalaxy>
mm, true
<bofh>
wait are we talking DIYing a touchpad multitouch element?
<whitequark>
singletouch
<whitequark>
multitouch sounds pretty annoying to actually polish
<whitequark>
and using a non-polished one would be nightmarish
<whitequark>
also the reporting sucks
<GreeningGalaxy>
the chassis has a lot going on. I haven't actually found a way to fully open it, but what I've seen inside it has a LOT of different layers of circuit board, and a pretty extensive armored endoskeleton which the literature tells me is a magnesium alloy. The exterior is all plastic.
<whitequark>
so the reason i said "kapton tape pcb" is you might be able to put it between the chassis and the plastic case
<whitequark>
however the plastic sounds pretty thick
<whitequark>
so the next best thing is...
<whitequark>
debug that thing really well, then gouge an indentation in the outer plastic, put the pcb there
<whitequark>
and fill it with epoxy
<whitequark>
it'll be smooth and good to touch, it'll be indestructible too
<GreeningGalaxy>
sounds good
<GreeningGalaxy>
if I ever do find a way to get this thing open, I have reason to believe there's an internal USB interface I'll be able to commandeer. There's a touchscreen digitizer on the screen that shows up in lsusb but I think is broken.
<GreeningGalaxy>
I might even be able to get at it without significant disassembly, since the hinge cables are easy to get to.
<whitequark>
yes, there is absolutely an internal usb interface
<whitequark>
worst case you'll have to do with the one on the mini-pcie card
<GreeningGalaxy>
(I tried the usual "$PRODUCT disassembly" video, but got stuck at a point where the guy goes "now just lift out the keyboard" and mine is still firmly stuck in place)
<whitequark>
huh
<GreeningGalaxy>
kinda wonder if the previous owner upgraded from the standard keyboard to the backlit island-style it has now and used some kind of glue.
<whitequark>
ew
<GreeningGalaxy>
could also just be really old double-sided tape
<GreeningGalaxy>
An amusing feature this has is a BIOS 'odometer' type thing that counts up the total runtime hours of the machine. When I got it, it was at something like 35000 hours.
<GreeningGalaxy>
Assuming that's to be trusted, it's aged really well. The external screws are a little tarnished, but other than that it looked basically new when I got it. (I've added my own scratches since then, though)
<GreeningGalaxy>
No company stickers. My best guess is that it spent its life in a cop car, because I've seen a lot of cop cars with very similar computers inside.
<whitequark>
that's still a lot of years, even at 12 hours/day
<GreeningGalaxy>
just the Intel Centrino Duo sticker, Energy Star, and a Windows Vista sticker which I peeled off and replaced with an Ubuntu sticker that I stole from one of my unis computers (they all have them, but none of them actually run it even as a dual boot)
<GreeningGalaxy>
My machine doesn't either, but you know.
<whitequark>
someone cheaped out!
<whitequark>
I suppose they have some sort of enterprise windows license
<whitequark>
but didn't bother to get PCs from an enterprise supplier
<GreeningGalaxy>
That's probably it, which surprises me because they're all those fully mediocre dells that you'd expect to come from an enterprise supplier
<GreeningGalaxy>
I suppose it also occurs to me that they could be from some secondhand refurb shop that put the stickers on them
<GreeningGalaxy>
christ, I hate it when google puts words in my mouth. "touchpad scroll" [Enter] ~magically~ turns into "touchpad scrolling not working windows 10"
<GreeningGalaxy>
ah, this is perfect. You have no idea how long I've wanted this but assumed it wasn't a thing.
<whitequark>
same
<whitequark>
@munin has shown it to me I think
<whitequark>
I used to put quotes around things but google will STILL suggest you shit even then
<whitequark>
"helpfully"
<whitequark>
now I use duckduckgo though where that isn't a thing
<whitequark>
and its autocrrects are less malicious but more irritating
<whitequark>
it converts CFString to cstring
<whitequark>
ddg why
<GreeningGalaxy>
...okay. I just heard heavy rain falling on the other side of my ceiling, which I thought was normal and relaxing for about five seconds before I remembered that 1) it's way too cold to be raining, and 2) I live in the garden apartment of a three-story building.
<whitequark>
'garden apartment'?
<GreeningGalaxy>
pronounced "basement"
<whitequark>
lolwhat
<GreeningGalaxy>
I don't know whose idea it was first, but it's a very common thing around here to call the lowest floor (basement, if furnished) the "garden" level
<GreeningGalaxy>
at least for apartments
<GreeningGalaxy>
Anyway usually when I say "I live in a basement" on IRC, people assume it belongs to one or both of my parents (which is apparently somehow less desirable than having it belong to some rando landlord? IDK) so I thought for some admittedly tenuous reason that "garden" would be less ambiguous
<whitequark>
ahh that makes esnse
<GreeningGalaxy>
have you used nRF24L01+ modules much? I'm starting to get into them with my uni's robotics club.
<GreeningGalaxy>
I think I almost got one working using someone else's C++ library today, but the problem is that I only got *one* to do anything, so I don't know if the link would actually have worked.
<whitequark>
GreeningGalaxy: I kinda really wanted to use them but never had a chance
<GreeningGalaxy>
It's kind of a funny story. Robotics club was going to a makerfaire, but our robots didn't have any way of being controlled wirelessly yet, and we had four days to go. We went to a local "robot store" which mostly sold novelty robot-ish things for parties but also had a few serious components and got four of these modules, and then promptly discovered that exactly one of us (me) even knew
<GreeningGalaxy>
how to read the manual for how to use them.
<GreeningGalaxy>
well, not promptly. Not until we actually got to the faire.
<whitequark>
haa
<GreeningGalaxy>
I've worked with SPI devices before, but these things are an order of magnitude more complicated than an MCP3008
<GreeningGalaxy>
although it's pretty straightforward if you use some library, if that library actually works.
<GreeningGalaxy>
The reason we never got them working in time was that I was the only one who knew how to read the 75-page datasheet, but I didn't know much about programming for Arduino, which is what we had. If I had then what I have now, I could've pulled it together on a Nucleo, but I didn't even know about Nucleos then.
<GreeningGalaxy>
They're all CS and game design majors. I'd like to say that I have an easy time collaborating with them, but that would be lying.
<GreeningGalaxy>
anyway, I need some sleep. see you around
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<egg|zzzz|egg>
!seen whitequark
<Qboid>
egg|zzzz|egg: I last saw whitequark on [11.03.2017 05:41:32] in #kspacademia saying: "haa"
<whitequark>
egg|zzzz|egg: wh
<egg|zzzz|egg>
whitequark: principia is apparently a drink?
<whitequark>
ye
<egg|zzzz|egg>
whitequark: also I gather I should say something about nice parts per thousand
<whitequark>
parts per thousand?
<egg|zzzz|egg>
there's a percentage next to the drinks
<whitequark>
oh
<egg|zzzz|egg>
probably ethanol by either volume or mass?
<whitequark>
yes, ABV
* egg|zzzz|egg
stares at the pings in various other channels... pinging on "double" was a mistake
<whitequark>
double trouble
<egg|zzzz|egg>
eggsactly
<egg|zzzz|egg>
!tell *Galaxy it's good to have you periodically reminded about what it feels like to look at a link of eggsplanations that are hard to understand. <<< abstract nonsense isn't a good way to do that, otoh the talk of eleggtronics or operating systems works well
<Qboid>
egg|zzzz|egg: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<egg|zzzz|egg>
speaking of which there was apparently a scanlime stream while I was asleep
<egg|zzzz|egg>
maybe someday I'll understand more than the cat in these streams
<kmath_>
<sigfig> videogame physics engines need some renewed mathematical attention they do not have to be as unstable as they are
<egg|zzzz|egg>
videogame people need some mathematics eggsplained to them >_>
<egg|zzzz|egg>
or really, some numerics at least
<egg|zzzz|egg>
I understand the convenience of having forces that you apply once per frame, but that doesn't necessarily mean doing it with Euler, they could use Newton-Delambre-Stoermer-Verlet (leapfrog) for the same cost
<egg|zzzz|egg>
an they'd have higher order *and* symplecticity
<egg|zzzz|egg>
or even a multistep method I guess, if they're willing to store the forces from previous frames; but then you'd need to mark discontinuities somehow, so that's perhaps not ideal
<egg|zzzz|egg>
anyway, enough ranting, there's principia#1241 to review
<Qboid>
egg|phone|egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<egg|phone|egg>
!Acr -add:NCSA National Center for Supercomputing Applications
<Qboid>
egg|phone|egg: I added the explanation for this acronym.
<egg|zzz|egg>
whitequark: do you know whether in clang-format there is an option to prefer foo->\nbar to foo\n->bar?
<egg|zzz|egg>
Thomas: remember kountdown's .t?
<Thomas>
sorry, no idea what that was
<egg|zzz|egg>
Thomas: gave the time (arguably not very useful), but had an association of users and timezones, so you could do .t Thomas and see Thomas's local time
<Thomas>
aha
<egg|zzz|egg>
Thomas: now arguably given how screwed up everybody's sleep is around here this might be of limited usefulness
<egg|zzz|egg>
... or maybe we could set our effective time zones
<e_14159>
egg|zzz|egg: For me, there's not really a difference.
<egg|principia|egg>
#kspacademia: linking a rocket picture and using it to veer off into numerical analysis
<egg|principia|egg>
...
<egg|principia|egg>
Today in "KSP is dumb": the FloatingOrigin system puts the origin where the root part of the vessel is (i.e. at top typically). Then the camera is offset from that so that it's at the barycentre of the vessel.
<egg|principia|egg>
because putting the barycentre of the thing to which physics happens at 0 and the camera looking there would be too sane
<whitequark>
lol
<whitequark>
clearly it's "kerbal space program" because it was written by kerbals
<egg|principia|egg>
that... that explains a lot of things
<egg|principia|egg>
also hello zlaing, I assume you're that astronomer bofh was talking about
<UmbralRaptor>
egg|principia|egg: I try to keep sane hours, but failures happen.
<egg|principia|egg>
UmbralRaptor: hah
<egg|principia|egg>
!wa time in Kansas City
<Qboid>
egg|principia|egg: current time in Kansas City, Missouri, United States: 9:06:57 am CST | Saturday, March 11, 2017
<egg|principia|egg>
this is sane though
<egg|principia|egg>
!wpn UmbralRaptor
* Qboid
gives UmbralRaptor a samarium katana
<UmbralRaptor>
!wpn egg|principia|egg
* Qboid
gives egg|principia|egg a radial octahedron
<egg|principia|egg>
also, hi Majiir
<UmbralRaptor>
!wpn Majiir
* Qboid
gives Majiir a reactive cow/suitcase hybrid
<egg|principia|egg>
UmbralRaptor: samarium does not sound like a good material for a sword
<UmbralRaptor>
Presumably it's a sword to get through customs, and can then be converted into something else?
<egg|principia|egg>
*drops sword into deep fryer* *sword ignites*
<bofh>
egg|principia|egg: feh, SmCo5 would make for a decent sword IMO
<bofh>
now a cow/suitcase hybrid OTOH...
<egg|principia|egg>
bofh: right, but that would be a samarium cobalt sword, which is something else that Qboid may generate
* UmbralRaptor
doubts that it was both a cow and a suitcase at the same time.
<bofh>
UmbralRaptor: so I'm assuming \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}(|cow> + |suitcase>)
<egg|principia|egg>
UmbralRaptor: cows are self-propelled leather suitcases used for the transport bovine products
* UmbralRaptor
had entirely too much trouble parsing that LaTeX.
<bofh>
egg|principia|egg: oh, so much like cars are basically a bunch of couches in a box that moves forward by blowing up really fast?
<egg|principia|egg>
bofh: that's specifically petroleum cars though right
<egg|principia|egg>
bofh: speaking of QM, I hope your client encloses nicks in <>
* UmbralRaptor
hopes @ is hermetian.
<egg|principia|egg>
oh
<egg|principia|egg>
right if your client does that for ops my nickpun fails utterly
<bofh>
ahh, I see
<bofh>
well I can always just assume @egg and egg are different eigenstates :P
<egg|principia|egg>
e.g. in the Thomas-whitequark logs it looks right:https://logs.tmsp.io/kspacademia/
<bofh>
(treating principia here as some operator)
<bofh>
brb, boarding a flight
<egg|principia|egg>
yes, my status has to be an operator of sorts, maybe an observable?
<egg|principia|egg>
bofh: have a good flight
Majiir is now known as Snoozee
egg|principia|egg is now known as egg|tea|egg
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<whitequark>
!wpn GreeningGalaxy
* Qboid
gives GreeningGalaxy an arsenic polonium counter
<whitequark>
what a device
<GreeningGalaxy>
!wpn whitequark
* Qboid
gives whitequark an inert resistor
<Qboid>
GreeningGalaxy: egg|zzzz|egg left a message for you in #kspacademia [11.03.2017 09:00:03]: "it's good to have you periodically reminded about what it feels like to look at a link of eggsplanations that are hard to understand. <<< abstract nonsense isn't a good way to do that, otoh the talk of eleggtronics or operating systems works well"
<GreeningGalaxy>
whitequark: I can't tell, is that a generic counter made of arsenic and polonium, or a counter for counting polonium made of arsenic? Or something else
<whitequark>
GreeningGalaxy: it's killing you.
<whitequark>
*mic drop*
<GreeningGalaxy>
well yes but I want to know what it's for and what it does before I succumb
<Iskierka>
I think that's the mic drop
<UmbralRaptor>
So that's why its MAX_INT is only 1?
<GreeningGalaxy>
"how much polonium?" "one polonium"
<egg|tea|egg>
!wpn GreeningGalaxy
* Qboid
gives GreeningGalaxy a pointy ㎭ refractor which strongly resembles a cabbage
egg|tea|egg is now known as egg
<egg>
today in Ada anecdotes: Ada has rather a lot of keywords https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Keywords, and back when he was on the ARG, phl wanted to find a concept that would allow "is not at all" to mean something (he didn't find anything though)
<whitequark>
"is not at all constant"
<egg>
:D
<egg>
whitequark: I am unsure what the dynamic semantics of that are, but it sounds scary :-p
<egg>
bofh: I knew about his algorithm, but not his approximation (those are wonderfully descriptive names aren't they)
<bofh>
yes
<bofh>
09:12 <@egg|zzzz|egg> I understand the convenience of having forces that you apply once per frame, but that doesn't necessarily mean doing it with Euler, they could use
<bofh>
Newton-Delambre-Stoermer-Verlet (leapfrog) for the same cost
<bofh>
who on earth calls leapfrog anything other than leapfrog? :P
<egg>
so, it depends to whom you speak
<egg>
astronomers say Leapfrog
<egg>
molecular dynamicists say Verlet
<SnoopJeDi>
PIC folks kinda use both
<egg>
not sure who says Stoermer, they exist
<bofh>
oh, point, I do vaguely recall Verlet at times
<egg>
and I learned Stoermer-Verlet
<egg>
bofh: and then, I looked that mess up
<whitequark>
god damn it
<whitequark>
now it failed the download
<whitequark>
itunes is written by completely incompetent people
<bofh>
yes
<bofh>
yes it fucking is
<bofh>
so did I tell you about the iTunes VM? I have a Windows 7 VM that I cloned from the same image I use to disassemble malware.
<bofh>
egg: "Notably, it appears in Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, in section II (De inventione Virium centripetarum), in the proof of theorem I."
<Qboid>
[#1244] title: Is there a commit I can build that will work with 1.2.2? | I was wondering if there's a commit that'd work with 1.2.2. I know how to build the project, and already tried building both the latest commits in the master and Cardano branches. The Cardano behaves ... | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/1244
<bofh>
man I now want to make music via 20W fiber laser + steel plates
<bofh>
time for more flying, though with wifi this time.
<bofh>
can't wait to be back in the land of America's Maximally Asshole Drivers
<egg>
bofh: are they more assholeish than parisian drivers though
<GreeningGalaxy>
I still have my old iPod touch in here somewhere. That device followed a satisfaction curve about exactly proportional to 1/t
<GreeningGalaxy>
Day 1: "cool, my first pocket-sized device with wifi!" Day 50: "I want music but my storage is completely flooded with "other."
<GreeningGalaxy>
then the home button "broke" even though the hardware was fine. It would do nothing on the first press, then register a double-press when you pushed it again.
<GreeningGalaxy>
It's only been about 3 years, but the battery is now scarcely better than no battery. I don't get how people think apple stuff is good-quality, honestly.
<GreeningGalaxy>
!wpn egg
* Qboid
gives egg an eta intensive pigeon
<egg>
!wpn GreeningGalaxy
* Qboid
gives GreeningGalaxy a serpentine repeater
<bofh>
egg: it's been like over a decade since I was last in Paris and I don't recall much about the drivers there.
<bofh>
(flight delay, yaey)
<bofh>
egg: Illinois drivers are in some ways worse than the ones in Rome, some ways better
<bofh>
though honestly I feel like that's at least half due to there being less one-way roads in Chicago
<egg>
Rome has some resemblences with Pariss let's say
<egg>
s/ss/s
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: Rome has some resemblences with Paris let's say
<GreeningGalaxy>
bofh: heh, my neighborhood in Chicago is entirely 1-way roads
<egg>
bofh: mind you, I don't drive, so I can only tell you about drivers from the pedestrian perspective of a pedestrian
<egg>
pedestrian puns
<bofh>
GreeningGalaxy: my condolences.
<bofh>
egg: I also can't drive, so
<GreeningGalaxy>
me either
<bofh>
but the experience of almost getting run over every time I go to see the symphony orchestra is ""fun""
<GreeningGalaxy>
I do bike, but mostly illegally (e.g. on the sidewalks, because I don't have any lights)
* egg
has a bicycle, but too much slope here :-p
* egg
lazy
* GreeningGalaxy
pokes egg with gears
* egg
pokes GreeningGalaxy with a gravitational potential
<GreeningGalaxy>
I used to bike between my house in Edgewater and my job in Evanston over the summer, but usually only on the way home at night for some reason
<GreeningGalaxy>
(I would ride the train with my bike on the way out)
<GreeningGalaxy>
I'm luck I didn't get hurt doing that, probably. It was kind of a long ride down dark streets with no lights or reflectors to speak of.
<GreeningGalaxy>
(I did wear a helmet, I'm not a madwoman)
<egg>
GreeningGalaxy: also, because I nerd-sniped myself into doing the calculation, I need to expend about 590 J/kg to go from ETHZ to my house
<GreeningGalaxy>
that's not too bad
<egg>
also that's a terrible lower bound :-p
<GreeningGalaxy>
so if an egg weighs 70 kg and a kcal is 4184 J, that's not a lot of food
<egg>
also while we're doing silly unit things that's 3.7 TeV per microgram
<egg>
GreeningGalaxy: mind you that's just the gravitational potential, I utterly ignored things like my house not being right above ETHZ and efficiencies
<GreeningGalaxy>
ah, fair enough
* egg
doesn't actually live in a house floating 60 m above ETHZ)
<GreeningGalaxy>
ok, I need to lever myself up and go get some stuff done, it's after noon and I haven't done anything today besides clean up my kitchen a little
<SnoopJeDi>
There's definitely defensible measured numbers for energy expenditure in the literature
GreeningGalaxy has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
<SnoopJeDi>
Doubly-labeled water, mostly
<bofh>
as in... tritated and what else?
<SnoopJeDi>
hm?
<bofh>
oh and oxygen-18
<bofh>
was wondering what the second "label" waals
<kmath_>
<eggleroy> Double-double sum vs. ill-conditioned compensated summation in multistep integrators: hitting the floor vs. going u… https://t.co/0C7k1P7sUm
<bofh>
naturally I am curious how well Clenshaw-Curtis/Fejér Quadrature worked :P
<egg>
oh hello again Чебышёв
<egg>
bofh: we only have SPRKs, SRKNs, and some conjugate symplectic (symmetric) linear multistep integrators
<bofh>
I see you've just given up on deciding how to transliterate 'ё' :P
<egg>
I've given up on transliterating all of his name
<egg>
well, we have an adaptive stepsize ERKN too
<egg>
bofh: english wikipedia: His name can be alternatively transliterated as Chebychev, Chebysheff, Chebychov, Chebyshov; or Tchebychev, Tchebycheff (French transcriptions); or Tschebyschev, Tschebyschef, Tschebyscheff (German transcriptions). But, that's not all! Italian wikipedia uses the ISO 9 Čebyšëv, and mentions Cebisceff e Chebycheff in italiano; and in romanian you have Cebîșev :D
<egg>
while we're at it, hu Csebisev, pl Czebyszow, fi Tšebyšov
<bofh>
"Čebyšëv"
<bofh>
that's a thing? fucking seriously.
<egg>
bofh: note that there are plenty of variants on how to transliterate ы, all of which are terrible
<egg>
bofh: that's a thing, and one of the earliest ISO standards (9 !!!)
<egg>
you rarely see an ISO number that low
<egg>
the point is bijectivity
<bofh>
what's wrong with using 'io' or 'jo' for 'ë' there?
<bofh>
also I use y for 'ы' since that's what slavic langs written in latin script use
<whitequark>
like I know y is used in *translit*, but translit is basically completely unrelated to what people use to *properly* write slavic langs in latin
<whitequark>
this would be a pretty impressive coincidence
<bofh>
tho apparently the russian one is more a Close central unrounded vowel
<bofh>
(fuck the IPA vowel system)
<bofh>
(well more just fuck vowels full stop)
<egg>
bofh: as I was telling whitequark in another channel, that sound [ɨ] exists in viet (and thus I can pronounce it), but not in any western language that I know of; it's pretty much the dotless i in turkish though
<egg>
whitequark: and yes, 37 symplectic or conjugate-symplectic integrators \o/
<egg>
(this is obviously a very reasonable KSP mod)
<egg>
bofh: I mean if you want IPA [y] that's just the german ue (can't be arsed to type an umlaut :-p) or the french u
<bofh>
no I don't mean IPA [y]
<bofh>
I mean IPA [ɨ], which is written in Polish/Czech/Serbian/etc orthography as 'y'
<egg>
bofh: silly thing in mathematical terminology: in geometric group theory, one says that a group that has a finite index subgroup which is <property> is *virtually <property>*.
<egg>
bofh: this is usually used to say "virtually cyclic" or "virtually free" or "virtually abelian" or "virtually free abelian" or whatnot
<egg>
bofh: but of course now you can call finite groups "virtually trivial groups" :D
<egg>
(top hydrolox, bottom kerolox I think? apparently I didn't do the hypergolics)
<whitequark>
so I actually can't explain how it sounds because my knowledge of english slang is not nearly vast enough
<whitequark>
but "днище" also can literally translate to "rock bottom", except with 500% more of "we're *so* doomed" connotation
<bofh>
egg: so my extensive use to cloud2butt has meant I keep trying to backtranslate that as "tank cloud"
<whitequark>
imagine if you had an ISO standard for "Elliptical [single word for someone spending 14hr/day in profanity-laden arguments on 4chan]"
<egg>
hah
<egg>
bofh: huh
<egg>
btw this general review of buttless engines is likely quite outdated
<bofh>
21:48 <@whitequark> imagine if you had an ISO standard for "Elliptical [single word for someone spending 14hr/day in profanity-laden arguments on 4chan]"
<bofh>
so like that would be a very useful single word
<egg>
I feel like I should learn russian slang and profanity
<egg>
though I have to say french isn't bad at profanity and generally colourful expressions
<whitequark>
egg: english profanity is so tame it barely registers in my mind at all
<egg>
(a favourite example of mine is "splitting hairs", for which we have two expressions: the boring "quartering hairs", and "fucking flies in the arse")
<whitequark>
actually, I think at this point I suspect most of the actual obscene words are derived from descriptors of social conflict
<whitequark>
which is rather interesting
<whitequark>
like Dutch profanity is, I think, mostly diseases
<whitequark>
russian is mostly genital-oriented
<egg>
yeah we do have quite a bit of that in french
<egg>
I mean "con" for stupid, which is extremely common, is etymologically cognate to "cunt" (though has a very different meaning)
<egg>
if you add to it the pejorative suffix -ard, you get connard, which roughly translates to (metaphorical) arsehole
<egg>
if you say (literally) arsehole (trou du cul, abbreviated to trouduc'), it sounds very mild
<egg>
whitequark: oh, there is this weird thing, it might be slang emanating from the places of higher education, the verb "biter" (from bite, slang for penis) means "to understand"
<whitequark>
um
<egg>
whitequark: also the grandes écoles have weird slang, not profanity, but... well, Polytechnique is called the X, and those who take 2 years of preparatory school to get there are called 3/2, those who fail the exam on the first try, 5/2
<egg>
because they integrate X from 1 to 2, resp. 2 to 3
<egg>
whitequark: also they call their sword the tangent
<egg>
because it's tangent to seam of the trousers
<whitequark>
*facedesk*
<bofh>
*facepalm*
Majiir is now known as Snoozee
<bofh>
whitequark: so in RU social conflict in large part is due to genitalia is what you're saying?
<whitequark>
bofh: no I mean the modern english profanity is based on social conflict
<bofh>
what would you classify as "modern english profanity"?
<egg>
whitequark: does russian have composability of profanity like french? in french you can take basically anything that can be used as profanity and use it as an intensifier as '<profanity> de'
<whitequark>
egg: yeah
<whitequark>
you turn it into an adjective
<egg>
whereas english is pretty limited intensifiers once you're past fucking, sodding, bloody, damn, and a few of others
<egg>
s/few of/few
<whitequark>
and you can also turn it into a prefix and put it onto that adjective
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: whereas english is pretty limited intensifiers once you're past fucking, sodding, bloody, damn, and a few others
<egg>
whitequark: hmm
<whitequark>
in which state does "bloody" count as profanity
<egg>
whitequark: grammatically it's that kind of intensifier
<whitequark>
ah
<e_14159>
whitequark: s/state/kingdom
<Qboid>
e_14159 thinks whitequark meant to say: in which kingdom does "bloody" count as profanity
<egg>
yes, that, too :-p
<egg>
whitequark: clearly I should learn russian to complement french to express my feelings about programming languages
<whitequark>
egg: do it
<egg>
whitequark: an advantage of having family who did language design: I am from the outset firmly convinced that any programming language sucks, it might just suck in a different way :-p
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<egg>
hmm, time to try out ksp_plugin serialization in game
* egg
eggspects hilarious failure
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<egg>
well it doesn't seem to fail too much
<egg>
I feel like we're getting closer to Cardano
<egg>
btw, RFC: phl wants to switch to a regular release system after Cardano, where we release whatever we have every, e.g., 6 weeks; that sounds like a good idea (otherwise we end up with nonsense like Cardano's WIP since August), but I worry about quick fixes for bugs (we always increment the mathematician when making a new version)
<bofh>
by Cardano you mean his formula for solving the quartic?
<egg>
by Cardano we mean the mathematician, the releases of Principia are named after mathematicians
<soundnfury>
egg: maybe you could name bugfix releases "Cardano b", "Cardano c" like eggsoplanets
<bofh>
egg: italic handwritten cyrillic is fucking hell to read
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: leap seconds are still better than the frequency offsets + leaps they had before
<bofh>
it might as well be steganography
<egg>
bofh: have you tried mathematician-written fraktur though
<egg>
I don't think I've had two profs who wrote that in similar ways
<bofh>
egg: there is no reason for leapseconds existing for most uses of time. Most people actually want TAI.
<bofh>
so, like
<egg>
use TAI then \o/
<egg>
our internal type is TT
<bofh>
I've both tried and USED mathematician-written fraktur
<bofh>
so really my main issue is NTP uses UTC
<bofh>
were it not for that decision leapseconds would be both: little-known and uncontrovertial
<UmbralRaptor>
Can we just spin up the Earth instead of using UT1?
<bofh>
since NTP is the only way that everyone does timesync for most cases
<egg>
NTP sucks
<egg>
also unixtime is stupidly defined
<bofh>
agreed, but it's what everyone uses
<egg>
yup
<egg>
but indeed, if you want TAI, use TAI
<whitequark>
UmbralRaptor: there was a whatif about this
<whitequark>
the answer is this would solve the UT1 problem but not how you think it will
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: well if we can manage to spin up the earth and keep it at a constant rate, UT1, TT, TAI, and UTC run parallel
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<UmbralRaptor>
If it doesn't solve the spinning and it doesn't kill everyone, I will be very confused.
<bofh>
egg: the problem is I want *NTP* to use TAI
<egg>
ah, but NTP sucks
<egg>
:-p
<egg>
(partly because it doesn't)
<bofh>
but everyone uses NTP and that seems easier than getting everyone else to use some other timesync algorithm
<egg>
partly for other reasons iirc, but I'm rather incompetent here
<bofh>
(in large part b/c time synchronization is hard)
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<egg>
bofh: time is hard, too.
<egg>
I mean explain what the difference between TAI, TT, and TDB is to somebody
<soundnfury>
#taimasterrace
<egg>
and how it varied through IAU resolutions
<soundnfury>
egg: but who cares what the IAU say? After all, they think Pluto isn't a planet :P
<UmbralRaptor>
Incidentally, the definition of a parsec now means that sin(x) == x
* UmbralRaptor
slaps soundnfury around with Ceres, Eris, Haumea, Makemake, and Sedna.
* soundnfury
throws a Hydra at UmbralRaptor
<UmbralRaptor>
Hrm. Senda isn't officially a dwarf planet.
<egg>
bofh: (currently, TT is a linear scaling of TCG; TAI is a *measurement* of TT---with a non-integer second offset for meaningful historical reasons---, TDB is a linear scaling of TCB that's chosen to be close enough to TT for a good while)
<bofh>
like isn't TAI just an averaging over a bunch of atomic clocks to minimize collective phase jitter?
<bofh>
23:33 <@UmbralRaptor> Incidentally, the definition of a parsec now means that sin(x) == x
<bofh>
WAIT WHAT
<egg>
but since TAI is a measurement, after a while you get a bulletin telling you "we have measured the measurement errors, here is how much TAI is off from TT at this date"
<egg>
TAI isn't actually parallel to TT, it's whatever is measured
<bofh>
shouldn't it be at most a few hundred microseconds?
<egg>
oh sure
<bofh>
the measurement error shouldn't be too large, since TT is defined in terms of Cs-135 hyperfine transitions iirc
<egg>
but it's conceptually a very different thing
<egg>
TT being *actually time* (scaled linearly)
<bofh>
so if the delta is so small as to be practically meaningful, I don't care :p
<UmbralRaptor>
bofh: Okay, to explain a bit, the AU is currently (since 2012 or 2015 or so) as 149,597,870,700 m. The parsec is defined as 648,000/π AU.
<egg>
it's the time coordinate of the GCRS, scaled linearly
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: the recommended abbreviation by the IAU resolution is au
<bofh>
sorta like how in numerics if the taylor series error term winds up being < DBL_EPSILON it might as well be zero
<UmbralRaptor>
egg: doh.
<egg>
UmbralRaptor: prior to that the BIPM recommended ua fwiw :-p
<egg>
because franzosen
<UmbralRaptor>
egg: I'd probably read that as unified atomic mass >_>
<UmbralRaptor>
bofh: But, yeah. Think of a right triangle with the short leg 1 au long, the long leg 1 pc long, and the angle between the long leg and the hypotenuse is 1 arcsecond.
<bofh>
egg: ua?
<bofh>
UmbralRaptor: same
* soundnfury
gives UmbralRaptor a simple pendulum
<UmbralRaptor>
And, well, since every star is >1 pc away (<1"), the errors are quite small.
<bofh>
re: unified mass
<egg>
bofh: unité astronomique
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<soundnfury>
egg: I'd just assume they meant micro-astronomers but didn't have a μ in ASCII :P
<egg>
that would be micro ares
<soundnfury>
... good point
* GreeningGalaxy
reads this morning's scrollback, imagines egg hoisting himself upwards on a rope from ETHZ to his floating house
* GreeningGalaxy
using a bicycle, that is
<soundnfury>
so a µa is... a cm ²?
<whitequark>
egg: easy question
<whitequark>
let's say i am drawing a quad
<egg>
a quad?
<whitequark>
i have the o, u and v vectors
<whitequark>
a... rectangle
* soundnfury
is totally going to start calling square centimetres µa :)
<egg>
a quadrilateral?
<whitequark>
yeah
<egg>
what are o, u, and v?
<soundnfury>
I'm guessing normal and two edges?
<whitequark>
some point and the two sides adjacent to that point
<egg>
[talking to me tends to require definitions, because I'm really not familiar with CG stuff]
<whitequark>
u and v are perpendicular
<whitequark>
i'm not familiar with it either :]
<egg>
ok
<whitequark>
so now i need a matrix
<egg>
also the word lerp should die in a fire
<egg>
and the word slerp in a metal-fluoride fire
* soundnfury
gives egg an affine hull
<whitequark>
transformation matrix, to be precise
<whitequark>
erm, let me give you a bit more context
<whitequark>
i'm doing a software renderer because $REASONS
<soundnfury>
whitequark: u and v are thereby also basis vectors for your co-ordinate system on the quad, yes?
<whitequark>
i have a method to draw a quad, which takes 3-vectors o, u and v, and a texture
<whitequark>
now i need to project it onto a 2d surface
<whitequark>
i *think* i can apply the camera transformation to all three vectors then just discard z
<egg>
well how is the camera transformation defined :-p
<soundnfury>
yup, as long as it's linear
<whitequark>
oh the camera transformation is ... um
<whitequark>
i dont really understand it but it works