egg|nomz|egg changed the topic of #kspacademia to: https://gist.github.com/pdn4kd/164b9b85435d87afbec0c3a7e69d3e6d | Dogs are cats. Spiders are cat interferometers. | Космизм сегодня! | Document well, for tomorrow you may get mauled by a ネコバス. | <UmbralRaptor> egg|nomz|egg: generally if your eyes are dewing over, that's not the weather. | <ferram4> I shall beat my problems to death with an engineer.
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<egg>
whitequark: which thing are you loling at eggsactly
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<egg|cell|egg>
Bofh: also send me that draft 喵
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<egg>
bofh^28: nevermind, that has the right thing on the diagonal but it grossly overestimates the maxima
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<bofh^28>
egg: yeah, what on *earth*
<bofh^28>
10:40:51 <@egg> bofh^28: for fixed degree n, the maximum is roughly eggsponential in the order, with the maximum for order 0 being 1 and (2n-1)!! for order n
<bofh^28>
for fixed degree n, and what value m?
<bofh^28>
10:44:42 <@egg> bofh^28: you said that you had an asymptotic thingy
<bofh^28>
yeah they asymptotically look like a weirdly scaled Bessel f'n :p
<egg>
bofh^28: m is the order
<egg>
bofh^28: also where is that draft
<egg>
bofh^28: did it get eaten by a rat in the sewers or what,
<egg>
bofh^28: also there are 3 copies of me in this channel, clearly this is appropriate for peer review
<egg>
egg number 3
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<bofh^28>
the egg review board,
<egg>
bofh^28: um
<egg>
bofh^28: so
<egg>
bofh^28: this bound (n,m) is not too far from the geometric mean of (2 m - 1)!! and A001498
<egg>
cursed bound
<bofh^28>
egg: this makes sense, since like, the polynomial itsself over [-1,1] should have extrema ~ \pm 1 as the degree grows (since it's monic and asymptotically you can bound a polynomial by the absolute value of the leading coefficient's maximum)
<bofh^28>
also didn't part of your thesis touch upon AA001498 iirc?
<egg>
it's a shitty bound for n=2 and then it gets much finer quickly
<bofh^28>
wtfffffffffff
<bofh^28>
I mean I'm not too surprised about a geometric mean of some simple combinatorial stuff coming up, that tends to happen nontrivially often for no good reason at all.
<bofh^28>
but still.
<egg>
bofh^28: I mean it's not eggsactly that, but it's close
<egg>
bofh^28: ... actually i don't need closed forms for those maxima, I can just throw Mathematica at them and stick them in a table :-p
<kmath>
<MattDoogue> Spiders may not be the pure predators we generally believe, after a study found that some make up a quarter of thei… https://t.co/yQZDtHqOS5
<UmbralRaptop>
!meow bofh^28, egg, egg|cell|egg, and egg|work|egg
* Qboid
meows at bofh^28, egg, egg|cell|egg, and egg|work|egg
<egg>
so many eggs
<UmbralRaptop>
Enough that someone could have a thesis committee entirely of eggs.
<egg>
UmbralRaptop: snake eggs?
<UmbralRaptop>
Sure
<SnoopJeDi>
UmbralRaptop, aaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
<egg>
a?
<SnoopJeDi>
the thought of even one egg on a committee gives me a pang of imposter terror!
* egg
gives SnoopJeDi an egg carton
<UmbralRaptop>
SnoopJeDi: alternate joke: a committee full of eggs for a gender studies thesis
<kmath>
<jim_deane> @rjallain I took all my meter sticks outside and spray painted the inches side silver. ⏎ ⏎ On at least two occasions,… https://t.co/txuC54REaz
<SnoopJeDi>
don't let the inmates run the asylum etc.
<iximeow>
hey who runs kmath? can we fix the "truncates tweets with elipses and t.co" thing?
<SnoopJeDi>
but also lol SI evangelists
<iximeow>
(there's a poorly documented flag to provide when making API calls that should do the trick)
* egg|cell|egg
pokes bofh with the output of wpn
<egg|cell|egg>
!wpn
* Qboid
gives egg|cell|egg an invisible fluent
<SnoopJeDi>
iximeow, kmath is icefire's bot IIRC?
<UmbralRaptop>
SnoopJeDi: as long as they're not talking about how great Celsius is…
<SnoopJeDi>
UmbralRaptop, one more month (and then a few more)
<UmbralRaptop>
SnoopJeDi: until the snakefight?
<SnoopJeDi>
UmbralRaptop, until 26th CGPM
<SnoopJeDi>
and assuming the resolution passes (I can't imagine why it wouldn't), the adoption of the new standard next April
<egg|cell|egg>
;8ball did bofh get eaten by a moth
<kmath>
egg|cell|egg: As I see it, yes
<SnoopJeDi>
(i.e. redefinition of Celsius to be not-bad, among other things)
<iximeow>
;o;
<iximeow>
!wpn bofh's mofh
* Qboid
gives bofh's mofh a clopen tau
<SnoopJeDi>
μ0 being a measureable will be slightly weird o.O
<UmbralRaptop>
SnoopJeDi: eggsperimentally determine the value of π?
<SnoopJeDi>
!wpn -add:wpn Buffon's needle
<Qboid>
SnoopJeDi: Weapon added!
* egg
pets whitequark
* egg
meows at whitequark
* iximeow
pets at egg
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: no, you should add needle as a wpn and Buffon as an adj
<egg>
!wpn -remove:Buffon's needle
<Qboid>
egg: Invalid type
<egg>
!wpn -remove:wpn Buffon's needle
<Qboid>
egg: Weapon removed!
<egg>
!wpn -add:wpn needle
<Qboid>
egg: Weapon added!
* iximeow
gives SnoopJeDi a Buffon Buffon's needle
<egg>
!wpn -add:adj Buffon
<Qboid>
egg: Adjective added!
* egg
gives iximeow a 荒漠貓
<SnoopJeDi>
!wpn -add:wpn continued fraction
<Qboid>
SnoopJeDi: Weapon added!
<iximeow>
jokes on you, that is me!
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: ...
<egg>
!wpn -add:wpn fraction
<Qboid>
egg: Weapon added!
<egg>
!wpn -add:adj continued
<Qboid>
egg: Adjective added!
* SnoopJeDi
gives egg a continuous continued fraction
<egg>
!wpn -remove:wpn continued fraction
<Qboid>
egg: Weapon removed!
<egg>
!wpn -add:wpn trout
<Qboid>
egg: Weapon already added!
<egg>
unsurprising
<iximeow>
!wpn -add:wpn continuous trout
<Qboid>
iximeow: Weapon added!
<iximeow>
:3
<iximeow>
!wpn -remove:wpn continuous trout
<Qboid>
iximeow: Weapon removed!
<SnoopJeDi>
lol
* egg
continuously slaps iximeow with a trout
<iximeow>
!wpn -add:adj extinct
<Qboid>
iximeow: Adjective added!
<icefire>
hmm
<SnoopJeDi>
!wpn -add:adj smoked
<Qboid>
SnoopJeDi: Adjective already added!
<SnoopJeDi>
!wpn -add:adj cured
<Qboid>
SnoopJeDi: Adjective added!
<egg>
!wpn icefire
* Qboid
gives icefire a parabolic ladder
<icefire>
yeah kmath is mine
<SnoopJeDi>
;mission kmath?
<egg>
;8ball is kmath really icefire's
<kmath>
egg: Outlook not so good
<icefire>
rip mission 2014-something I forget
<SnoopJeDi>
kmath, well yea, the Outlook database is trash
<egg>
!wpn
* Qboid
gives egg an ISO 9 ineffable dunder/fish hybrid
<icefire>
whats going on with truncated tweets?
<egg>
icefire: what do you mean eggsactly
<icefire>
idk iximeow was saying something about it
<egg>
icefire: i suppose some layer truncates at 140 characters
<iximeow>
it's shorter than 140, frustratingly
<egg>
even 140 wouldn't be enough so,
<icefire>
/statuses/ but yeah
<iximeow>
icefire: you should be able to append ?tweet_mode=extended, which retrieves the full text directly (i'd have to double check that it shows up in the same field)
<iximeow>
oh right, statuses
<iximeow>
transcribed poorly :D
* egg
meows at iximeow
* egg
pets at ixipet
<egg>
wait no wrong case
* egg
pets ixipet
<icefire>
hmm not sure if displaying whole tweets would be good?
<icefire>
it would have to truncate at 512 anyway, or print multiple lines
<icefire>
what would you guys prefer
<egg>
bofh^28: whitequark: iximeow: UmbralRaptop: what do you think
<iximeow>
yeah, just a suggestion. tweets are still capped at 280, but tweets with like 50 users tagged and long urls could still get hairy
<egg>
also it's 512 bytes not 512 codepoints
<icefire>
^ that
<egg>
and it's 280 whatever-twitter-counts
<icefire>
linking JP tweets gets large quickly
<egg>
which now is veeeryyy slowly converging to weighted egcs of sorts?
<egg>
icefire: yeah but those are limited to 140 codepoints
<egg>
in a way
<iximeow>
yeah.. not sure how twitter counts for length
<kmath>
<✔Dr_ThomasZ> Just heard that all @NASAKepler campaign #19 data are on the ground! Super excited for this courageous spacecraft a… https://t.co/rx7gNDeYlc
<kmath>
<bofh453> <egg> every increasing ω-sequence of screams converges to a limit in the long scream ⏎ <bofh> I think you just explained US politics twitter.
<SnoopJeDi>
although they don't work *on* it
<UmbralRaptop>
egg: yes, but I've seen him ranting about it.
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: what, no, punycode is perfectly reasonable in comparison
<egg>
it's just a compatibility thingy, works decently, fails ugly, but aside from that isn't utter madness
<SnoopJeDi>
"twitter is idiosyncratic" seems like a more favorable outcome than "the web is trashed"
<SnoopJeDi>
although neither is good heh
<egg>
yes but "the web is trashed" is an overstatement
<egg>
overstatements annoy eggs
<SnoopJeDi>
I don't think it's overstating things when apple.com gets shadowed
<SnoopJeDi>
and the best solution is hoping the browser vendor has a good whitelist :/
<egg>
what do you mean
<egg>
you mean UTS #39? that has nothing to do with the punycode encoding scheme itself
<SnoopJeDi>
but if it annoys you, let's not discuss
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: yes, browsers that don't implement Unicode technical specifications on security and implement punycode are bad, news at eleven
<egg>
this has nothing to do with punycode
<egg>
this is about homographs in Unicode, it doesn't trash things, and browsers do implement the technical specification (which is very comprehensive, because the people on the Consortium and affiliated companies whose job it is to deal with homograph attacks are actually decent are their job)
<egg>
and the typical reaction of "Unicode allows homographs attacks which I do not understand, therefore for our application we must retreat to ASCII which is good enough for poorly-typeset English and therefore the world" is something that I have to fight as part of my job, so yes, it annoys me
<SnoopJeDi>
based on that I'd expect you to think punycode isn't a great idea
<egg>
wat
<SnoopJeDi>
"we can't into Unicode therefore we made an encoding to ASCII part of infra"
<egg>
you have to remain compatible with the existsing scheme and support Unicode, that's a workable solution
<SnoopJeDi>
I mean maybe I'm ill read about this but that's my understanding: it's too hard to *actually* support Unicode, so just paper over it
<egg>
yes, you're ill-read. this hackaday thing, is, again, unrelated to the punycode encoding scheme
<SnoopJeDi>
I mean, it's not like homograph attacks are really specific to punycode, sure
<SnoopJeDi>
but why add even *more* surface area for phishing
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: yes, when clearly English is good enough for everyone
<egg>
are you actively trying to troll me?
<SnoopJeDi>
nvm
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: you are mingling the separate questions of 1. "punycode as a weird encoding scheme to support Unicode", and yes, it's weird, but you can't rebuild the entire infrastructure whereupon the web is built; 2. Homograph attacks are a thing when you have Unicode identifiers or any sort
<egg>
2. is dealt with by Unicode itself, in technical specification number 39
<UmbralRaptop>
Technically keming allows for homoglyph attacks in 7bit ASCII >_>
<egg>
yes
<egg>
also I and l
<egg>
and 1
<SnoopJeDi>
good thing nobody's ever used that to phish someone
<egg>
amusingly UTS 39 does catch those
<egg>
but hey, Unicode implies homographs therefore homographs imply Unicode, so surely ASCII is safe >_<
<SnoopJeDi>
that's a straw-man
<SnoopJeDi>
I don't appreciate it
<egg>
good, my job implies dealing with straw men
<egg>
presumably mills too
<SnoopJeDi>
I know you don't think much of me egg, but conversations like these feel awful
<SnoopJeDi>
so if I'm not welcome I'd rather just be told that :/
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: at the end of the day, yes, supporting Unicode comes with cost, at many levels, from font rendering with advanced logic (and yes, this logic is occasionally broken, I have my name on an iOS release because of that), to homograph attacks (those are fairly well handled by the UTS, but of course you have to implement the damned UTS)
<SnoopJeDi>
right, a standard is only as good as its adoption
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: on the other hand, there are people who don't speak English, there are people who don't use the latin script, and hey, they have the internet too
<SnoopJeDi>
and supporting their scripts is an excellent idea!
<SnoopJeDi>
egg, so UTS 39's confusability criteria avoid all homograph attacks?
<SnoopJeDi>
or some substantial fraction?
<egg>
UTS #39 deals very well with the homoglyph stuff, if your browser actually shows that hackaday url as "apple.com" you should get another browser
<SnoopJeDi>
yes, I looked at UTS 39 a bit before reading the question, but figured I'd ask you (an expert) the question
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: this exists since August 2006
<SnoopJeDi>
egg, begging the question of why the attacks were ever possible in the first place, no?
<egg>
so yes, if you have a twelve-year-old browser, there's a problem
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: because people half-arsed the implementation?
<SnoopJeDi>
did we decide as a species to put half-arsing away for good?
<egg>
haha
<SnoopJeDi>
I mean you're right, "the web is trashed" is an overstatement
<egg>
it turns out that supporting all languages and script in common use is harder than just 128 symbols
<SnoopJeDi>
sorry, I should've thought more about how this is *literally* your job before resorting to hyperbole
<egg>
(128 - control characters)
<egg>
(I mean, you can be naive with ASCII too, and get random control characters)
<SnoopJeDi>
right, it's never a question of making flaws go away, it's about threat surface
<SnoopJeDi>
and from where I stand punycode seems like the ultimate realization of bad band-aids on top of "properly implementing Unicode is hard"
<SnoopJeDi>
I'm not criticizing it, mind. You're right, nobody's gonna rip up the infra
<SnoopJeDi>
and I guess between the two I'd rather have URLs that aren't anglophone-centric
<SnoopJeDi>
still feels creepy
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: but again, you're mingling two unrelated issuse
<egg>
s/se$/es/
<Qboid>
egg meant to say: SnoopJeDi: but again, you're mingling two unrelated issues
<SnoopJeDi>
sure I'm not criticizing punycode-as-an-encoding
<SnoopJeDi>
it's an accomplice to homograph attacks
<SnoopJeDi>
which as you say are A Big Problem with Unicode
<SnoopJeDi>
language: apparently kinda hard
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: all the "Unicode is hard", "homoglyphs are a thing", the "web is full of phish" would eggsist even were things interchanged in UTF-8
<SnoopJeDi>
agreed
<egg>
the encoding is a bit silly, but works
<egg>
Unicode is hard, but necessary, and infinitely better than the plethora of twisty little encodings, all different, that would be the unavoidable alternative
<SnoopJeDi>
egg, so did str/bytes :P
<egg>
it didn't
<SnoopJeDi>
fsvo "works"
<egg>
see my preceding message, you need an encoding
<SnoopJeDi>
yea, I guess the encoding doesn't matter at all as far as what I care about
<SnoopJeDi>
I just use "punycode" as a clumy way to refer to homographs
<egg>
if that encoding is ISO-646-whatever on one end and КОИ-8 on the other end, you're having fun
<SnoopJeDi>
which is misleading
<egg>
well, the encoding matters in that you thankfully don't have to deal with it
<egg>
because IDNs happened after Unicode
<egg>
thankfully
<SnoopJeDi>
yea, we'd be even deeper if Unicode hadn't come along when it did
<SnoopJeDi>
!wpn -add:wpn EBCDIC
<Qboid>
SnoopJeDi: Weapon added!
<egg>
even atop ASCII
<egg>
having КОИ-8 domains and ISO-8859-1
<egg>
domains in some fashion sounds scary
<SnoopJeDi>
domain-specific encodings, you mean?
<egg>
well, if you didn't have a unified encoding for all scripts, German domains would use a German encoding, Russian domains a Russian one, and god forbid you look at a Russian domain from a German browser
<egg>
ËÏÔÑ.ÒÆ
<SnoopJeDi>
yea I just wasn't quite sure what you meant by @egg | having КОИ-8 domains and ISO-8859-1
<egg>
(note: I don't think котя.рф is actually a domain)
<SnoopJeDi>
bah, what even then is the point (/s)
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: exactly what "bags of bytes" means in a non-Unicode world
<egg>
you'd use ISO-8859-1 for western European languages
<egg>
and КОИ-8 for Russian
<egg>
and go to ËÏÔÑ.ÒÆ to get котя.рф
<SnoopJeDi>
what's the "language" of a domain?
<SnoopJeDi>
gtld?
<egg>
ill-defined
<egg>
what I mean is that in a non-Unicode bags-of-bytes world, the interpretation of the bytes depends on the encoding, which generally comes with the language in an eggstended sense
<SnoopJeDi>
right, and with DNS we have a de-facto agreed upon language
<SnoopJeDi>
"why make a new channel when we can use ASCII as a carrier"
<SnoopJeDi>
without disrupting anything etc.
<egg>
no but more importantly, we have an definition of *what the hell it is that we are carrying through that encoding*
<egg>
punycode is a weird encoding, but it maps to Unicode code points
<egg>
and those are universal
<SnoopJeDi>
yea it's weird but I think okay
<SnoopJeDi>
and as you say, the inherent problem is one level of abstraction up
<egg>
well, the inherent problem is that A Α А look alike, yes
<SnoopJeDi>
or rather, the "other" problem, where you decide using an idiosyncratic encoding is fine if you have a very clear prefixing scheme
<SnoopJeDi>
(or maybe it's not a prefixing scheme? I don't quite recall)
<egg>
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
<egg>
!u AΑА
<Qboid>
U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A (A)
<Qboid>
U+0391 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA (Α)
<Qboid>
U+0410 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER A (А)
<egg>
but that is a known and well-handled problem
egg is now known as xn--wr9h
<xn--wr9h>
!wpn SnoopJeDi
* Qboid
gives SnoopJeDi a 511 keV 🗡
<SnoopJeDi>
ha!
<SnoopJeDi>
xn--wr9h, you should register that nick :P
<xn--wr9h>
I maintain that IRC clients should suppor punycode in nicks
<xn--wr9h>
SnoopJeDi: again, we have the same thing with IRC
<xn--wr9h>
IRC predates Unicode
<xn--wr9h>
it even predates the ASCII-based encodings, which is why \ and | are equivalent in nicks
<xn--wr9h>
and [] {}
<SnoopJeDi>
hmm, would that mean extending nicks substantially (arbitrarily?)
<xn--wr9h>
SnoopJeDi: as you may have noticed, most half-decent clients actually support UTF-8 as the message encoding
<xn--wr9h>
SnoopJeDi: at the end of the day, UTF-8 is essentially a weird hack that's ASCII-on-8-bits-compatible and allows you to encode Unicode
<SnoopJeDi>
of course, that's the point
<xn--wr9h>
now, IRC is stricter on nicks
<xn--wr9h>
which means that you can't have non-ASCII nicks
<xn--wr9h>
the obvious conclusion is: punycode nicks :-p
<SnoopJeDi>
!wpn -add:wpn minifier
<Qboid>
SnoopJeDi: Weapon added!
<xn--wr9h>
(same weird hack, but alphanumeric-with-hyphen, assuming that people don't actually write strings that look like punycode in real life)
<SnoopJeDi>
RIP people with xn-- nicks :D
<xn--wr9h>
eggsactly
xn--wr9h is now known as egg
<egg>
!wpn SnoopJeDi
* Qboid
gives SnoopJeDi a rotary de Sitter tomahawk
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: otoh the characters are all the same width, not a shaping script, no diacritics, Chinese has only one plural case, so way nicer than any of the languages using the Latin script from an i18n point of view :D
<SnoopJeDi>
the width is so visually satisfying
<SnoopJeDi>
!wpn -add:adj regular
<Qboid>
SnoopJeDi: Adjective already added!
<SnoopJeDi>
!wpn -add:wpn polyhedron
<Qboid>
SnoopJeDi: Weapon already added!
<SnoopJeDi>
good, good
<SnoopJeDi>
!wpn -add:adj stellated
<Qboid>
SnoopJeDi: Adjective already added!
<egg>
;8ball did bofh^28 get eaten by a bat
<kmath>
egg: Very doubtful
<egg>
hmmm
<iximeow>
;8ball did bofh^28 get eaten by a grue
<kmath>
iximeow: Most likely
<iximeow>
oh no
<egg>
!wpn
* Qboid
gives egg a FORTRAN density
<SnoopJeDi>
considering the stability of FORTRAN, that's probably pretty dense!
<SnoopJeDi>
someone in freenode #python was on a tear about how scientists are dumb because they won't rewrite "outdated" FORTRAN in "modern" languages
* SnoopJeDi
hugs BLAS, LAPACK, et al.
<egg>
well, there comes a point when the cost of interfacing glue can be significant, but for specialist matters you do want to know what you are doing if you translate this kind of thing
<SnoopJeDi>
sure, hence GSL, Boost etc.
<SnoopJeDi>
the appeal to novelty is always like a punch to the side of the head though
<SnoopJeDi>
...he said, having just appealed to novelty in a roundabout way in criticizing the use of punycode? :thinking:
<SnoopJeDi>
speaking of language things, egg is there a standard for :emoji_codepoint:? I know Slack has done a lot to popularize that form of reference, but am unsure if it's formalized anywhere
<egg>
hmm
<egg>
I have managed to stay away from emoji matters, so not sure
<egg>
there might be
<SnoopJeDi>
it seems like they're *sorta* based on the codepoint names
<egg>
yeah that seems like the obvious choice
<egg>
though they're sometimes silly names
<SnoopJeDi>
right, human beings clearly have simplified at some point
<egg>
there are the CLDR names (localized, so that you know that oeuf maps to the EGG codepoint)
<egg>
sometimes a mess, because sometimes a language doesn't have different words for two different emoji
<egg>
iirc squid and octopus have this problem in one scandinavian language
<SnoopJeDi>
ooooh
<SnoopJeDi>
I guess you just "FOO Variation [12]"
pthag has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: not sure what compromise they pulled
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: imagine having an emoji for "crow (not carrion crow)" and "carrion crow" (corresponding to the french "corbeau" and "corneille")
<SnoopJeDi>
haha
<SnoopJeDi>
"I'm not sure what she thinks of me, she said she had a great time but she sent me a carrion crow emoji with it...?"
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: also english has raven vs. crow
<egg>
but the distinction if it eggsist doesn't align with corbeau/corneille :D
<egg>
SnoopJeDi: also french has a separate name for jackdaws
<egg>
so I guess it would be (crow/raven (neither carrion crow nor jackdaw), jackdaw, carrion crow)
<egg>
and then try coming up with short names for that in English and despair
<SnoopJeDi>
whoa, the etymology between corbeau/corneille is neat
<egg>
ultimately seems to come to the same root, but before Latin
<SnoopJeDi>
yea
<egg>
rqou: <egg> 25112225121
<egg>
<egg> rqou: how does this kind of input method work for non-simplified grass radicals