egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin closed pull request #2973: Documentation for a correctly-rounded cube root - https://git.io/J3BRj
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin pushed 182 commits to master [+32/-12/±676] https://git.io/JnXXo
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin 1e2f583 - Start documenting something that should have been documented nearly three years ago
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin 8f50679 - γKahan
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin 59926e4 - sym
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] ... and 179 more commits.
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<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @XKdiver yeah but we can’t use MechJeb code in other mods, because GPL
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ so someone would need to redo it if it is going to be a general-purpose library 🙃
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ On an unrelated note, moar documentation (for code that’s not there yet) https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/blob/master/documentation/cbrt.pdf
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ Why would it being GPL prevent its use in other mods?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ because Principia is not GPL, and MechJeb is GPL, not LGPL
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ Ah dang, I am simultaneosly curious about why principia chose MIT over a stronger copyleft but also don't want to start a religious war over two different types of licenses which are both free lol
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ yes I don’t think this line of discussion would go very far without falling prey to the wrath of the egg pursuant to at least #rules five and seven (though the meaning of seven here is admittedly somewhat nebulous)
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ ye
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Though I should note that Principia literally contains bits of a mathematical library, which should answer part of the question for you
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<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ Hmm, I thought they were compatible but am struggling to find a concrete thing specifically about MIT
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ Not too knowledgeable about the laws regarding this, but now is a good time for me to look everything up lol
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ In intent GPL is more restrictive than MIT, so if they were compatible in that direction it would plainly be failing at its task. IIRC it is fine for a GPL thing to depend on an MIT one, but this is not what is being discussed here.
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ Yeah, that's what I meant. I do understand if a more restrictive license is a no-go for the main branch of principia, but, if it isn't a no-go I don't think there would be an issue
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ Yeah, that's what I meant. I do understand if a more restrictive license is a no-go for the main version of principia, but, if it isn't a no-go I don't think there would be an issue (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Yes, but no, so no.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Even in the GNU world, a thing that is effectively a numerics/physics/astronomy library is the kind of thing that gets LGPLed, not GPLed.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ This isn’t the GNU world anyway, full of yaks though it may be.
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ yeah i already rewrote it once for myself
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ah so I guess it is tractable
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ it wasn't cleanroom so its probably a bit polluted with some mechjeb ideas still, but if i rewrote it again it'd probably get a bit unrecognizable
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ at what point do we care about copyright that hard when its all $0?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ well, there may be some useful stuff in Principia
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (see the recurring joke of an astronomy & numerics library which happens to have a KSP mod growing out of it)
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ haha
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ that IS what this game is turning into, and that's awesome
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ yeah but i doubt anyone who ever contributed to MJ would lob a sueball at Principia, they'd care a lot more if that code crept into KSP 2.0
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ in the foreseeable future, sure; but copyright lasts much longer than the foreseeable future
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ something something Ляпунов exponent something
<raptop> Reminder that Sherlock Holmes is not yet public domain
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ yeah, but for linking or access via reflection when there's $0 on both sides of the equation...
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ and on a long enough timescale C# and C++ are dead languages
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ well, FORTRAN is alive and well…
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ that's because its a zombie
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ I think sherlock holmes is public domain? There was a small legal fight over whether or not sherlock holmes *with emotions* is public domain or not
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ anyways thats a bit offtopic lol
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ sure, but it is hardly inconceivable in principle than a company or other institution may want to use the Principia libraries at some point, there’s some useful stuff there—especially in the numerics, but even some of the numerics has nice things; and institutional users are rather more paranoid about the taint of GPL
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ sure, but it is hardly inconceivable in principle than a company or other institution may want to use the Principia libraries at some point, there’s some useful stuff there—especially in the numerics, but even some of the astronomy has nice things; and institutional users are rather more paranoid about the taint of GPL (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ sure, but it is hardly inconceivable in principle than a company or other institution may want to use the Principia libraries at some point, there’s some useful stuff there—especially in the numerics, but even some of the astronomy has nice things—; and institutional users are rather more paranoid about the taint of GPL (edited)
<raptop> Skylar: I mean, as long as you don't put Sherlock Holmes in a straight relationship, it should be okay
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ Sherlock and Watson sure are spending a lot of time together…
* raptop could easily believe that sherlock is gay or aroace given the way he acts in the novels/short stories
<raptop> also, he's blatantly ADHD and ASD
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ I haven't read any of the stories, but, aroace/gay sherlock is my headcannon now. Maybe aro/gay? 🤔
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ sure, but it is hardly inconceivable in principle that a company or other institution may want to use the Principia libraries at some point, there’s some useful stuff there—especially in the numerics, but even some of the astronomy has nice things—; and institutional users are rather more paranoid about the taint of GPL (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ As best I can tell we have the best elliptic integrals in existence (by slight improvements over Fukushima’s FORTRAN implementation), and we will soon have the only correctly-rounded cube root (and the second fastest cube root, after Apple’s).
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ yeah but if you're linking or using MJ via reflection its fairly easy to see where to chop the code in order to remove the GPL
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<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ if it were using MJ, the actual mod would become GPL-licensed, at that point I would probably at least want a separate repository for the mod to ensure that there is no risk of cross-contamination between the GPL mod and the less restrictively licensed underlying libraries (the file system is inadequate for that, most directories depend on most of the others), and that is getting far too disruptive (
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<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #3034: Legible instants - https://git.io/Jn2SK
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ hmmm, i may want to write libdv for other reasons because its a simpler use case of a bigger problem i have
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tandecco⟩ "charging money for a patch" considered an extraordinary occurrence
<queqiao-> ⟨N​obody⟩ I always thought that the reason why games nowadays get regular fixes and content patches is because they are released unfinished.
<queqiao-> ⟨N​obody⟩ also because its more viable if you sell your game over the internet instead of cds.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ What about tge other way round? Games are released unfinished because they know they can fix it in patches?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ What about the other way round? Games are released unfinished because they know they can fix it in patches? (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Sounds like a good approach, inheritance turns out to be a poor fit in many cases imo.
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<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ "sherlock holmes with emotions" 😆
<queqiao-> ⟨K​irk (He/Him)⟩ Even in the CD/floppy days games got released unfinished
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Isn't that just Sherlock Holmes without opium?
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ figure out the orbital perturbations a sherlock holmes hat shaped asteroid and stationkeeping frequency
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ haha
<queqiao-> ⟨K​irk (He/Him)⟩ The Japanese versions of Nintendo games are notoriously buggy, because they got release months to years before the North American/European versions
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ figure out the orbital perturbations around a sherlock holmes hat shaped asteroid and stationkeeping frequency (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ figure out the orbital perturbations around a sherlock holmes hat shaped asteroid and stationkeeping frequency and minimum feasible altitude (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨K​irk (He/Him)⟩ Computer games also tended to be more polished in later markets, or got updated mid-run
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Games are publicly tested to satisfy the big bad investors as they require money and don't care about bad publicity. Only about a year after the first public test release would an average AAA game these days be considered released. Which means a second influx of money
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Indie games are different
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Hence the mention of AAA and investors
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ They can be more polished and still not live up to the developers' idea of complete
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Not saying indie games are always better but I can call m count the number of AAA releases living up the hype on a few fingers the last couple of years
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Not saying indie games are always better but I can count the number of AAA releases living up the hype on a few fingers the last couple of years (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ And that's simply because they know the fanbase will pre-order anyway. So why bother in polishing a product anyway
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ I like indie games
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ 1. They run on my computer
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ 2. Smaller in scope but usually more focused
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ 3. Don't require as much of a time investment always
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ 4. Can take more creative risks without a publisher
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ 5. People buy it because they *want* to , not because of a hype train.
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ I like indie games
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ 1. They run on my computer
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ 2. Smaller in scope but usually more focused
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ 3. Don't require as much of a time investment always
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ 4. Can take more creative risks without a publisher
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ 5. People buy it because they *want* to , not because of a hype train or other people telling them it's good (plus they're usually cheaper) (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ I but AAA too. But only after the "public beta" period and when it is at a discount
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ I buy AAA too. But only after the "public beta" period and when it is at a discount (edited)
<raptop> Paculino: Sherlock Holmes does things like cocain and tobacco more than opium IIRC
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ I stopped buying AAA because I don't have the money and time to invest in huge games--I'd never finish them or be able to justify the cost
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<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I've only ever bought minecraft and ksp
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Malekit300 opened issue #3038: Crash after loading screen with ksp 1.10 - https://git.io/JnyRd
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ when I was younger I bought some games (10 total max), but not so much now
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ I've seen some people whose game libraries have spiralled out of control to 300+ games. I don't understand it
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ You people are taking the food from my mouth. 😐
<queqiao-> ⟨s​iimav⟩ Poor starving Butcher!
<queqiao-> ⟨s​iimav⟩ Also, think of the kittens
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ And the ksp mods?
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Taking food out of her mouth.
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ What sort of games do you help make anyway?
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Or are you not supposed to tell which ones for some reason?
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ The last game I worked on was Returnal.
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ I can say, once they are announced.
* raptop looks at the colors, and assumes that Butcher's cat is 豪徳寺 ミケ
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ My cat is what?
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ 豪徳寺 ミケ
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ 豪徳寺 ミケ
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I don't have a PS5, and don't play shooters (edited)
* raptop does play shooters at times, but also doesn't have a PS5
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I have access to a PS2 though
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I don't think it could run it though
<queqiao-> ⟨K​irk (He/Him)⟩ Does anyone have a PS5?
<queqiao-> ⟨K​irk (He/Him)⟩ My store still hasn't gotten any
<queqiao-> ⟨K​irk (He/Him)⟩ We did get a dozen Xbox Series X
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy commented on issue #3038: Crash after loading screen with ksp 1.10 - https://git.io/Jnyww
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Oh, they just came out?
<raptop> Can't recall, is the Series X the same generation as the revised PS4s, or the PS5s
<raptop> ...or is that the XboX One X?
<queqiao-> ⟨l​pg⟩ xboxonex is the ps4Pro contemporary, series X the ps5 contemporary
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Xbox one series x box one x
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Ms dropped the ball on names.
<raptop> ...maybe referring to them by year would be easier
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Maybe they'll call the next one "original xbox" to really troll us
<raptop> I mean, there's already the "xbox one" for some reason
<queqiao-> ⟨l​pg⟩ my money is on XBox Xero
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Raptop, or just increment the number each release.
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Hey we could have the "one xbox"
<raptop> "The XboX Two is the 5th iteration of the XboX series..."
* raptop is still sad that the 360 wasn't called the NextboX, even though Apple would have gone ballistic
<queqiao-> ⟨l​pg⟩ MS will never beat Apple's new the new ipad though
<raptop> aaaaa
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Heh that would have been cool
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ What about Nintendo who called the new 3ds, "3ds".
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Completely unambiguous
* raptop wants to say that Dell XPS laptops are annoyingly difficult to work out the model numbers for also
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Amazon call al the kindles the same thing too. But then change the size by 1mm so cases don't fit.
<raptop> 🔪🔪🔪
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ I only have 192 in Steam :-(
<raptop> hm, 172
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ I think about 25% or do are free games or things that came in a bundle which I never played
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Do note: I've been a stream user since day 1 almost :p
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ A friend of mine is looking at 750+ games
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ And another at 500+
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Sooooo. Yeah. (IRL friends. Not fake online friends)
<raptop> *angry robot sounds*
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ And for the wtf of the moment: the 750+ guy is always complaining about not having enough money. Yet he keeps spending all his money on BS stuff like a fun-play-and-refurbish-mx5. A dog. And all other sort of random bullshittery. Like those Zelda figurines that you or in a glass cabinet. WHY.
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ /rant
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Going to bed now. Have had covid and amidst recovered after 3 days of fever :-(
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Going to bed now. Have had covid and almost recovered after 3 days of fever :-( (edited)
<raptop> aaaaaa
* raptop 's expenses usually seem to amount to "rent" and "everything else" since moving to a costal city