egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited issue #3039: Grassmann OK but Gröbner crashes with old RetroRendezvous save - https://git.io/JnpCW
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited issue #3039: Grassmann OK but Gröbner crashes with old RetroRendezvous save - https://git.io/JnpCW
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited issue #3039: Grassmann OK but Gröbner crashes with old RetroRendezvous save - https://git.io/JnpCW
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited issue #3039: Grassmann OK but Gröbner crashes with old RetroRendezvous save - https://git.io/JnpCW
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited issue #3039: Grassmann OK but Gröbner crashes with old RetroRendezvous save - https://git.io/JnpCW
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited issue #3039: Grassmann OK but Gröbner crashes with old RetroRendezvous save - https://git.io/JnpCW
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<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin opened pull request #3040: Meeus - https://git.io/JcUzf
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<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ ah, great, they managed to throw a wrench into Principia in the very last update https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/162200-wip181-191-1101-and-1110%E2%80%932-principia%E2%80%94version-gr%C3%B6bner-released-2021-06-10%E2%80%94n-body-and-extended-body-gravitation/page/71/&tab=comments#comment-3996128
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (I guess the easiest solution will be to rename them to .totallynotadll; shipping things outside gamedata sounds like it will make a mess)
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ They must've been yolked when releasing 1.12
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Might that trigger antiviruses?
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<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I wonder what RTB did.... I ask
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I wonder what RTB did.... I will ask (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I wonder what RTB did.... I will ask for a copy (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ My reaction when I heard this: https://gfycat.com/ambitiousfluidkrill
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Well. At least you can now have a real DON'T DOWNLOAD FROM GitHub warning but download from readme instead
<queqiao-> ⟨S​paceman Spiff⟩ Hopefully it’s the last time you need to work around squad’s changes
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<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Squad won't be changing anything though
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Unless Egg wants to work on principia 2 <3
<queqiao-> ⟨!​[VADERIII]⟩ welcome to another episode of "Squad has not heckin idea what they are doing"
<queqiao-> ⟨!​[VADERIII]⟩ welcome to another episode of "Squad has not heckin idea what they want to do" (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨s​unnypunny⟩ ckan can install files outside of gamedata, it does that with .craft files
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ principia is not on ckan.
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Why is principia a c++ dll anyway?
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Because the entirety of Principia (minus KSP interface) is written in cpp?
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Why was is written in c++ was my question
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ I would guess performance
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ because perl proved to be too slow?
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Perl?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ (insert any language here)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ how or why did they mess up that loading process at the last possible moment anyway
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ I don't know
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Apparently we cant have nice things
<queqiao-> ⟨S​paceman Spiff⟩ Maybe they’ll switch back in the next patch
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ I don't think squad would do that maliciously
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ There was probably a reason or it was a mistake
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ I've been away from KSP for a while. Not sure why or what changed recently, however I noticed a new community bugfix mod based on harmony
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ which is a nice thing 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨s​unnypunny⟩ new unity version for 1.12, i thought that was what broke principia
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ They have done a lot maliciously in the past, I dont follow very close but I don't recall anything against mod makers so its probably just stupidity yeah lol
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Maybe
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ new unity? again?
<queqiao-> ⟨!​[VADERIII]⟩ yeah squad moved ksp to a lts version of unity
<queqiao-> ⟨!​[VADERIII]⟩ Unity 2019.4.18f1 LTS
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ i really should look at the changelog.
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ C++ is heckin fast
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ and then at the git history of that weird mod that turns every game dynamic on its head
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ re. the loading thing I think this entry from the change log is relevant
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ > * Failed reflection calls to incompatible or otherwise invalid mods are now handled, so they don't stop the game from loading.
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Maybe egg could write in assembly to increase performance 😂
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ The primary motivation for the language isn’t so much performance as it is the type system to be honest
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ dimensional analysis is vital
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (and typed reference frames, too)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ Ah, yes, XYZ vs XZY or some similar shenanigans
<raptop> Zeusbeer: you know that he'd write in FORTRAN for that
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ I'm going to guess vector operations are great to have
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Well yes
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ (doesn't c# have those?)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ I'm assuming they're referring to vectorized instructions.
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Yeah
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I don't know about the differences that much, I only know a bit of c++
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Like take the square root of these 8 numbers at once
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Since c# uses CIL, they probably don't have vector operations
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ also I am going to have to wave the fifth of the #rules in the general direction of the discussion on languages and performance because too much uninformed nonsense is being thrown around for my sanity at this time
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Yes I will stop 😅
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ We do use SSE2 intrinsics, though we did not do that from the beginning, and this is not part of the C++ language; they are implementation-specific extensions; it appears some level of SIMD support exists in .NET (though the extent of support, especially through mono, might be a different question).
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ More fundamental performance questions surrounding inlining etc. are more broadly relevant.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Again, the primary motivator was the ability to type things, not performance (though it is likely that similar wrappers, where they would even be feasible in C#, would incur a prohibitive cost that is eliminated by a decent C++ compiler).
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Another critical advantage is a clear-cut interface, which allows for journaling at the interface, and replaying to diagnose rare bugs.
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Ok cool
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Yeah I've been messing around a lot on compiler explorer
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Its amazing what they can do
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ I however will agree with @Sir Mortimer that writing Principia in Perl sounds like a bad idea in many ways :-p
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ principia sql edition
<queqiao-> ⟨l​pg⟩ principia as excel spreadsheet?
* raptop jokes enough about Kerbal Excel Program already
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Principia as a scratch project
* raptop misread that as "Principia as a scratching post"
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Well to be honest, some cats see many things as a scratching post
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ with respect to principia and stock career mode saves, does it break contracts or any other major things I should be aware of? also, I can't find as much information as I'd like to as to compatability, will it work with recent-ish versions of KSP? (1.10, 1.11?)
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ thanks
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<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ nevermind I saw the readme
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ questions about career still apply though
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ *runs principia entirely within a Turing machine written in the preamble of the bibliography LaTeX document*
<raptop> experimentalshells: and that's how you get nicely formatted logs
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Make all log files output in markdown
<queqiao-> ⟨c​hazzvader⟩ Might actually be helpful tbh
<queqiao-> ⟨§​κyℓαr ♀⟩ Principia elisp edition.
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