egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao-> ⟨T​exSpace⟩ does kOS works with principia?
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I think Butcher does some magic with KoS
<queqiao-> ⟨T​exSpace⟩ Buthcher?
<queqiao-> ⟨T​exSpace⟩ Butcher? (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @Butcher
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ The trick is however, that it still goes by conic, and it's one fat approximation, but that doesn't matter for some thingw
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ The trick is however, that it still goes by conic, and it's one fat approximation, but that doesn't matter for most things (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @Butcher has cats and a kOS script that helps with getting to the Moon
<queqiao-> ⟨T​exSpace⟩ oh the lemon guy
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Scary double ping
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<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I am a bit confused on ballistic capture? Do you need to launch into inclination of the moon to do it more efficiently? In a simulation it was rather easy to do with 0 degrees of inclination
<queqiao-> ⟨p​Edro⟩ Should be fine at the AN/DN
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ if they lie in a plane you probably aren’t going to call them « tubes »
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (no relation to the fish tube, please do not shoot salmon at the moon)
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Interesting
<queqiao-> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Egg is allowed to double ping.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ 🏓 🥚🏓
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Are you going for an external or internal ballistic capture?
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ external 🙂
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ It has fancier noodles
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ oh yeah the external one is probably going to be even more out-of-plane
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ The idea there is to get near the earth-sun L1 I think, so easier if your an/dn is in the line towards the sun
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Yeah I think going like ~5 degrees shouldn't be a problem, just a regular kourou launch
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Yeah, should be quite doable from the cape too
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ It is also suprising how little the window matters when the transfer takes 90 days
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ See GRAIL for an example IRL
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ How much does normal LEO -> LLO cost? I am getting about 3700 m/s in total for a 200x1700 orbit around the moon
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ 3150 + 900 for a 100 km orbit, the main saveing is in capture dV, so you should expect quite a bit less than 900 m/s there
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Yes the capture is quite cheap
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I could probably do a bit better too
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ There is also an example IRL of an internal ballistic capture, the HITEN probe, from Japan (just as a curiosity, not saying you should do it)
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Isn't HITEN external though?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ yeah I think it is; I don’t know if inner resonance transfers have been a thing IRL
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ if I recall correctly they save more in Kerbin
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Huh, looks like I read the wiki text wrong...
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ if I recall correctly they save more in Kerbin–Mun than Earth–Moon (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Seeing a nice bit of Dzhanibekov effect
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Was SMART-1 an internal capture?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ solar electric propulsion, that’s an other can of worms entirely
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ constant-thrust trajectories look like nothing else
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ but I guess it is a bit in that same vein
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​ombieZilla⟩ Solar sails when
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<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Important update
<raptop> Cat has been deployed successfully and is collecting solar power
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I am a bit confused by the tennisracket effect? Why does it not occur on hyperbolic trajectories, is it because you are not rotating around a body?
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I am a bit confused by the tennisracket effect? Why does it not occur on hyperbolic / escape trajectories, is it because you are not rotating around a body? (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ O_o you are a bit confused, yes
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ what does the tennis racket/Джанибеков effect have to do with your trajectory
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ you can spin however you want whether you are in an escape trajectory or not
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Yes but I mean the rotating of the craft
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ It occurs on one axis when orbiting Earth, but not when spinning in a trajectory towards the Moon
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Maybe the length of the rocket is also a factor
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ The different radiuses/mass distributions are the main factor
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ The different radii/mass distributions are the main factor (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ A pencil will flip end over end rather than spin, for example
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ interesting
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ The other name for the effect being the "intermediate axis theorem" -- rotation will only flip if it's about the axis with the intermediate value of angular momentum
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ I thought it was the intermediate value of moment of inertia
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Grr I'm an idiot
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ The other name for the effect being the "intermediate axis theorem" -- rotation will only flip if it's about the axis with the intermediate value of moment of intertia (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ > It occurs on one axis when orbiting Earth, but not when spinning in a trajectory towards the Moon
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ What?!
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ that sounds... strange
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @Zeusbeer what makes you say that
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ have you perhaps been using different spacecraft in LEO and on your trips to the Moon
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Yes that is exactly my problem
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ In LEO I just hat the satellite, and on the trajectory I had a candle sticked to it
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ https://youtu.be/l51LcwHOW7s
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ and ascribed their different motion to their trajectories, whereas it is their different shapes which is to blame
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ @Zeusbeer the Russian video is great, because they show counterexamples (and obviously they can show freely spinning things which is easier when there is no stupid ground in the way)
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Thanks!
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Thanks! (Luckily auto-translation exists) (edited)
<raptop> you must think in russian
<queqiao-> ⟨M​3tex⟩ Hey it's me (again ^^). Sorry to still ask about rendez-vous, but i couldn't play yesterday. I managed to get a close encounter with my target, now do i need to do like i do in stock ksp (translate towards target with RCS then "braking" when around 100 meters) or is there another way ?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ when you are close enough you still need to actually look at the spacecraft and pilot it, because otherwise you will bump into things
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Principia can give you encounters at a couple of metres, but if anything at that point this is counterproductive, rushing in at those distances is dangerous
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Principia can give you encounters at a couple of metres, but if anything at that point this is counterproductive, rushing in at those distances without looking at what you are doing with respect to the physical spacecraft is dangerous (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ It is just like stock once you get that close
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Just eyeball and use rcs to burn towards the target marker to get closer
<queqiao-> ⟨M​3tex⟩ Thanks for your help 😄 i managed to get close just like in stock
<queqiao-> ⟨M​3tex⟩ actually i found the rendez-vous itself more easy to plan than in stock (once u understand how the target mode of principia works ^^)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Principia rendezvous is _amazing_.
<queqiao-> ⟨M​3tex⟩ bruh i'm so stupid lmaooo i sent the wrong ship, this one doesn't have a docking port 🥲 🥲 🥲 🥲 🥲
<queqiao-> ⟨p​Edro⟩ I like the target mode, docking is really hard coming from Orbiter 2016 with all its fancy MFDs.
<queqiao-> ⟨M​3tex⟩ the sun is rising on my failure
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<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ @egg Currently flying the wiggly Vesta mission. What do you want me to do?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ well, first, save so that you can get back to it once More Questions arise
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Done.
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ other than that, dunno, record your observations
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Well... the wiggling seems _periodic_... the noodles shift towards the right side of the screen and then snap to the left, repeat.
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Also note that the occlusion is wrong:
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ the occlusion is wrong, but Vesta is misshapen; the occlusion assumes a sphere
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ what is the period of the noodle snapping?
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Uh, a few seconds?
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ I'll send a video
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I have a question if I'm allowed
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Does lowering the tolerance change anything?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ is it perchance ten (in-game seconds)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ please do send a video though
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ No, shorter. Two or three IRL seconds
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ huh
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Nope. Since it's only the noodles that wiggle and not the markers, I'm guessing it's a thing with the drawing code.
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ ...hmm the direction in which the noodles move seems independent of reference frame or viewing direction (as in, seems to always be towards the same direction relative to the celestials)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ ...though the period of the wiggle is linked to timewrap (both physics and on-rails)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Longer video with different reference frames: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ri00XOI8BReCmCZ3z0F-jV-Df5D3xXtd/view?usp=sharing
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Maybe a screensharing call could also help 🥚
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ Not really
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Also, the prediction noodle wiggles the same as the flight plan noodle
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