egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<queqiao->
⟨lpg⟩ does starlink do boats?
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<queqiao->
⟨vevladdd⟩ I don't think it's impossible
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ I'm not sure if they did did cross-linking between satellites in Starlink, but I don't think so. (It's often in plans, but actually not especially easy to implement.) If not... coverage in some parts of the ocean will be really hard if there isn't a ground station that can see the same point in space your boat can.
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<raptop>
is vevladdd diomeda, or just someone with similiar hobies?
<queqiao->
⟨vevladdd⟩ Diomeda? Who's that
<raptop>
Guess not, then
<raptop>
Just another person who was involved somewhat with Principia-adjacent things for a while
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<queqiao->
⟨Quadrupole⟩ Is there an easy way to tell if my periapse from interplanetary transfer is on the near side of the planet?
<queqiao->
⟨Quadrupole⟩ Or, to put it in another way, is there a way to set orbit prediction to a fixed time length (instead of steps)?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ not sure what you mean by the near side; if you want to know whether it is on the day side you can use body-centred parent-aligned (which I keep meaning to rename to body-centred parent orbit)
<queqiao->
⟨.+*maddie*+.⟩ I think they mean the side facing Earth, for comms reasons no doubt
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ The trick I use is to set the flight plan's length to just a little bit longer than your expected time of periapsis. Now put yourself in body-centered inertial and take note of where Earth's prediction line ends. That's where Earth will be at your closest approach and it should be pretty easy to eyeball whether you'll have signal or not.
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ The trick I use is to set the flight plan to end just a bit after your planned periapsis. Now put yourself in body-centered inertial and take note of where Earth's prediction line ends. That's where Earth will be at your closest approach and it should be pretty easy to eyeball whether you'll have signal or not. (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I guess there might be a (fairly situational) use for a body-centred, home-body-aligned frame…
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ wouldn’t be hard to add, would be very hard to name well
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ I mean, didn't you just give a name? Ex. Mars-centered Earth-aligned makes sense to me
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ I mean, didn't you just give a name? Ex. Mars-centered Earth-aligned makes sense to me, or at least is consistent with the existing parent-aligned frames (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah but the existing name is confusing and inconsistent with real-life conventions
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ It should be Jupiter Sun Orbit (JSO)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ It should be Jupiter[-centred] Sun Orbit (JSO) (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (and geocentric ecliptic, but earth-centred sun orbit is fine)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (and geocentric solar ecliptic, but earth-centred sun orbit is fine) (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (and geocentric solar ecliptic (GSE), but earth-centred sun orbit is fine) (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Mars-centred, Earth observer? (since these are the trajectories that you would see relative to Mars, from Earth)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ but Observer and Orbit start with the same letter
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ ah but Sun and Earth don’t so it’s fine
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<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ > wouldn’t be hard to add
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ On second thought, doing it naïvely has issues.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ We want a Jupiter-centred frame fixing the direction of Earth, but that leaves a degree of freedom.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ If we just take the definition of JSO and substitute Earth for the sun, we get a reference frame that fixes the centre of Jupiter (specified), the plane of the sky as seen from Earth (specified), and the apparent motion of Jupiter in that plane (unspecified).
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ That last one is a mess, because the apparent motion of the planet is sometimes retrograde (something something epicycles), so that this frame would flip upside-down every now and then.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Instead we should probably do plane of the sky and projection of the axis thereon (but the Earth’s or the target body’s ?)
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<queqiao->
⟨TexSpace⟩ it says here principia for 1.11.2 will this work for 1.8.1 too?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I guess the earth’s axis is what makes sense here. So it would be a fairly different kind of frame, Jupiter-centred Sky or something
<raptop>
LoS questions inevitably lead to more triangles, right?
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Would the earth-facing planet-centered reference frames have holes in them when the sun is in-between?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ ??? what does it even mean for a reference frame to have a hole in it
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ you will have things that are behind other things, but that has nothing to do with reference frames
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I mean the trajectory as shown in it would jump sometimes
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ why
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ why does a body that is not at all involved in the definition of the reference frame have any incidence on that
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Okay
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ and why would a continuously-defined reference frame have discontinuities
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I thought it might be helpful in mission planning to see more easily when the comms outage would be
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ sure, visibility is discontinuous. But visibility isn’t a reference frame, much like « in the atmosphere » isn’t a reference frame
<raptop>
Ah, the ferram4 reference frame
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ What uses other than comms would the earth-facing planet-centered (or however the correct terminology would be) have?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ the reference frame of the plane of the sky centred on a body can help with visualizing shadowing behind that body, that is indeed the point
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ I mean, that would just look like 🌍 🪐 🛰️
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ but you cannot define frames that fix an arbitrary number of bodies, so if you happen to be in the shadow of something else, you will have to check that separately
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ much like you cannot simultaneously look at your Pluto and Charon, and Styx closest approaches
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ there is no reference frame that allows you to look at everything with respect to all bodies at the same time, this is why the reference frame selector is so important
<queqiao->
⟨Damien⟩ this seems like busy work to procrastinate doing the rotating pulsing frame
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I really should overhaul the frame selector, the verbiage in there is probably a bit obscure too
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Just the phrasing, or the ui too?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (part of that is that when it was designed the camera didn’t orient itself accordingly, so I had to say « the reference plane » when I can now say « the horizontal »)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ the UI also sucks but I suck at UI
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I think it is good as it is
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I thought you might be saying that somehow the ui was misleading
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ no, the UI is just clumsy (you often want to switch back and forth between two frames that are two clicks away from each other with an intervening irrelevant frame)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ the text is confusing, though I do not think it is misleading
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I feel like a different UI would make it easier to select the incorrect frame in the switch back and forth; how it is now forces you to be more intentional, so you make fewer mistakes
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I am not sure why you think a different UI would necessarily have that property, unless you are thinking of a specific kind of different UI
<queqiao->
⟨scimas⟩ Maybe time to make use of some of the discussion and content from that old UI overhaul PR, from formicant I believe. The mockups were definitely appealing.
<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Just open a second ksp instance in a different reference frame and stream all the ksp data to that instance while your pc suffers :RO:
<raptop>
Obviously you should be running KSP on a cluster
<queqiao->
⟨davjet1⟩ I don't have the option to target celestials, I am in the map view and its not there under KSP features
<queqiao->
⟨davjet1⟩ was this removed or is there something else im missing here