egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao-_> ⟨J​ustMozzie⟩ how badly does principia affect performance?
<queqiao-_> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ FPS is inversely related to number of vessels in flight (including debris and asteroids) times warp speed divided by 1/3rd of your number of cores.
<queqiao-_> ⟨S​ir Mortimer⟩ In other words: depends.
<queqiao-_> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ We should put this magic formula in the FAQs.
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<queqiao-_> ⟨B​utcher⟩ `fps = `:magic:
<queqiao-_> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Not sure that'll be super useful.
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy opened pull request #3070: Fix compatibility problems with a pre-Cohen save - https://git.io/JWXzb
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5051/
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy labeled issue #3039: Green & Grassmann OK but Gröbner crashes with old RetroRendezvous save - https://git.io/JnpCW
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Failure. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5051/
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #3070: Fix compatibility problems with a pre-Cohen save - https://git.io/JWXzb
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5052/
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Failure. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5052/
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Hey uh... I feel like I did some sort of mistake here
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin reviewed pull request #3070 commit - https://git.io/JW13G
<queqiao-_> ⟨m​aj. M.AL. (funq+10ⁿ)⟩ my pc starts chugging as soon as theres more than a few noodles flailing about
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin reviewed pull request #3070 commit - https://git.io/JW13B
<queqiao-_> ⟨Q​uadrupole⟩ Apparently you have launched into a bad window.
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Well, I was told to do an offplane TLI... I thought this was what they meant
<queqiao-_> ⟨Q​uadrupole⟩ By off-plane TLI you match LAN using PVG. You will intercept the moon at its ascending/descending node
<queqiao-_> ⟨Q​uadrupole⟩ So you need to wait until the moon is three or four days away from its nodes
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ I don't think anybody told me that
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ I think
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ wait, why 1/3?
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ @QuadrupoleSo, I do this. Right?
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ « missing the moon about as much as is possible » was not what people told you to do.
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Oh
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ « missing the moon about as much as is possible » was not what people meant. (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Sorry if I misunderstood, the instructions weren't that clear to me.
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ yes, I think we get that.
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ Again, this is about the hardest thing there is here, and you are starting out with Principia using that, while in career mode, when you still have trouble getting your rockets to stage properly. You are not going to space today. You should start with something more approachable.
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Well, the staging thing fixed itself when I replaced the solid boosters with liquid ones
<queqiao-_> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Uh did you try actually aiming the tli burn at the moon by changing the start time?
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Yes
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ Well evidently you did not, since you are literally going opposite the moon
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ which probably means that you did use a selenocentric reference frame to do the aiming
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ which probably means that you did not use a selenocentric reference frame to do the aiming (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ which hints at the fact that you have yet to learn the basics of Principia usage
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ for which I would strongly recommend doing a sandbox save from Kourou or something
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ otherwise you are going to fail to learn anything
<queqiao-_> ⟨B​utcher⟩ To go to the moon it helps if you aim at least vaguely in the direction of the moon.
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Well, I did not use a selenocentric reference frame because I thought the tutorial required that I first get the aim right in the Earth-centric one before doing the Lunar reference frame one.
<queqiao-_> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Uh, no.
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ Again, it is quite obvious that you do not yet understand what reference frames are for
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ Just make a sandbox save and get a feel for it
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ or better yet, a stock or JNSQ save
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ you would have done far more progress in a couple of days than you have by bashing your head against this one TLI for a couple of days
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ you're trying to learn to race in formula 1 before learning to drive a regular car
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ I do have a JNSQ savefile in which I used the reference frames correctly. Its just the tutorial kinda confused me.
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ I would say RSS is fine (you get effects that you do not get in stock/JNSQ), but starting from Kourou is a good idea
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ there is no tutorial for the TLI, so it cannot confuse you :D
<queqiao-_> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Sandbox with a decent rocket is not a bad idea
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ or better yet, an RSS install with SMURFF
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ remove all other variables than learning principia itself
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ I feel like there's something weird going on with the orbits of the planets. But I'm not sure.
<queqiao-_> ⟨Q​uadrupole⟩ You are using the wrong reference frame
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Oh, right
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Honestly, I haven't played with Principia in like a year. So of course I probably don't remember certain stuff from it.
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ well yes, again, that is quite apparent
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Yeah
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ which is why we recommend non mettere il carro davanti ai buoi
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ which is why we recommend *non mettere il carro davanti ai buoi* (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨r​sparkyc⟩ how difficult would it be to implement a feature to where you could add a maneuver node by clicking somewhere on the blue dashed line when you’re in planning mode?
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ 🙀
<queqiao-_> ⟨r​sparkyc⟩ maybe with a button, similar to how you select a target?
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ the fact that you've mentioned means that work is now complete and that feature will be in the next release
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ the fact that you've mentioned it means that work is now complete and that feature will be in the next release (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Well, I mean the simulation is basically me trying to get the manuever stuff right, since I'm not launching it in the game until I get it right... I think
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Also, I don't like the big load times, so that is also why.
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ no, the simulation is you bashing your head against the hardest tasks in Principia for far longer than it would take you to get a feeling for the basics
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ switching between reference frames appropriately should be second nature if you want to even attempt this sort of thing
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ I learned the hard way, and it turned out to be nowhere near as efficient as taking a break, learning it in easy mode then coming back
<queqiao-_> ⟨B​utcher⟩ I learned the hard way. 💪
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ I think I have done it?
<queqiao-_> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ I also learned the hard way, by realizing that there’s no point in figuring out how to eyeball the parking orbit.
<queqiao-_> ⟨Q​uadrupole⟩ You should have next to zero normal component, so no
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Oh
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Well crap. I have not done it then
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ hard to tell without a view of the whole trajectory (ideally in the three frames, ECI/MCI/MCEA)
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ oh yeah the manœuvre is Weird
<queqiao-_> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Judging by the dV and transfer time, it is highly suboptimal.
<queqiao-_> ⟨Q​uadrupole⟩ As I mentioned previously, wait until the moon is three to four days away from the nodes
<queqiao-_> ⟨B​utcher⟩ 2 days and 4 km/s is a high energy transfer.
<queqiao-_> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ A normal TLI from a reasonable parking orbit should take 3160 m/s or so, max
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Yeah, its probably pretty bad from me.
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Just realized I hadn't read that well that the tutorial on the wiki meant to use the barycenter.
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ MCEA is probably best
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Hey, what does the MCEA abbreviation stand for?
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ Moon-Centred Earth Aligned, but I should rename it to Moon-Centred Earth Orbit anyway
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ (but again, you should be constantly switching between all relevant frames at all times)
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ *the year is 3021, principia is now being played on KSP 200 by robots in space. barycentric frames still exist*
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Ok, looks not fine
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ (which requires you to have an intuition for what all of them are, which you can only get by playing around with them for a while, rather than trying to do one specific hard thing with no prior experience…)
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​ombieZilla⟩ What do you suggest the best way to learn principoa, just play with it in stock for a while?
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​ombieZilla⟩ What do you suggest the best way to learn principia, just play with it in stock for a while? (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ any setup that minimises variables. so stock, JNSQ, RSS without RO/RP-1 etc
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ whatever you're confortable with
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ I would go for RSS, and I am personally quite familiar with RO so I would go with that; absolutely not career
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ whatever you're comfortable with (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨B​utcher⟩ RO sandbox with modern engines maybe
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ I would suggest a seasoned KSP but not RSSRO vet speedrun all the milestones in stock (shouldn't take long at all) to learn the basics of the UI
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​ombieZilla⟩ I might try something like that, I've pretty much mastered stock
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ because people new to RSS also have to deal with the lunar inclination nonsense if using principia
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ yeah the main advantage of RSS is that you get to enjoy precession of Earth orbits and the moon eating probes
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ once they've got the UI and frames down, then practice in RSS
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ the probe-eating moon
<queqiao-_> ⟨B​utcher⟩ Nom
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​ombieZilla⟩ How many probes do I need to sacrifice to have a successful manned mission?
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ I could probably try installing principia in my JNSQ save... if it wasn't there's probably something which is flying to the Mun, and also the science stuff might glitch out from Mun and Minmus switching
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ I recorded my stock principia practice <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdbHCYyQhUs&list=PLQKjqjNIqew0Yr6zkNQWB5DhzbuSrd_AM>
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ did first launch to interplanetary etc over a week or so
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ moon landers, rendezvous, lagrange point orbits etc
<queqiao-_> ⟨Q​uadrupole⟩ Speaking of which, is there a video tutorial or book chapter on how to get into Lagrangian points?
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ a guy called abrin did some videos on it on youtube
<queqiao-_> ⟨Q​uadrupole⟩ could not find it
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ https://youtu.be/x98O9o4kLIc
<queqiao-_> ⟨Q​uadrupole⟩ Huh. Guess Youtube search is case-sensitive. Thanks anyways.
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​amien⟩ youtube's just generally terrible. I struggle to find my own youtube channel sometimes because it's an account I'm not logged into on my laptop
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ oh wow those it’s from the pre-פרנקל days
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ it took us a loooong time to get to plotting the celestials ourselves
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Damn, now I'm having more problems than just TLI after going back to the VAB... though that is more talked about in the #rp1-career-help channel
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ So, my attempt at sandbox mode ended up with the entire game going full black and not allowing me to go to the menu. Though I already told that in #rp1-support
<queqiao-_> ⟨u​riyuzhui⟩ KCT does not really work in sandbox
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Oh
<queqiao-_> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ this is the wrong channel but its there a way to disable KCT in a sandbox save?
<queqiao-_> ⟨D​RVeyl⟩ Yes, open up the mod settings in game, and disable it.
<queqiao-_> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ thanks
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin reviewed pull request #3070 commit - https://git.io/JW13B
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<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ From what I'm reading... Yeah I guess I understand why launching from KSC is a nightmare, though I do not know about what is a bi-impulsive transfer planer
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ From what I'm reading... Yeah I guess I understand why launching from KSC is a nightmare now, though I do not know about what is a bi-impulsive transfer planer (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Hmm I'm getting some jiggly noodles...
<queqiao-_> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ (This is at Vesta, with a 1 m tolerance)
<queqiao-_> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Interestingly, it's only the noodles that jiggle, not the markers
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Is kOS generally better at executing stuff with principia?
<queqiao-_> ⟨F​abioKevin⟩ Is kOS generally better at executing stuff with principia? Wait... Nevermind, just realized I had asked this question before (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ huh, that is weird
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ does it jiggle differently in different frames ?
<queqiao-_> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Ugh, I already exited out of the simulation. But I'll report back when I actually fly the mission
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<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy commented on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWMAa
<queqiao-_> ⟨B​utcher⟩ That seems misleading, a bi impulsive transfer is not required.
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor commented on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDI3
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #3070: Fix compatibility problems with a pre-Cohen save - https://git.io/JWXzb
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5053/
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #3070: Fix compatibility problems with a pre-Cohen save - https://git.io/JWXzb
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy reviewed pull request #3070 commit - https://git.io/JWDYG
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy reviewed pull request #3070 commit - https://git.io/JWDYn
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Failure. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5053/
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5054/
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy commented on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDYD
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDI3
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ What does the orbit analyser say?
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ (I am just really curious)
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Failure. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5054/
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #3070: Fix compatibility problems with a pre-Cohen save - https://git.io/JWXzb
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5055/
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<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5055/
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor commented on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin reviewed pull request #3070 commit - https://git.io/JWDiq
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #3070: Fix compatibility problems with a pre-Cohen save - https://git.io/JWXzb
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​teropodidae⟩ This might be a bit old, but if you’re on a newer macOS there were LLVM changes that cause Principia’s optional to no longer compile
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​teropodidae⟩ Need to change `__lazy_[and|or|not]` to `_[And|Or|Not]` IIRC
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<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
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<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
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<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Growflavor edited a comment on issue #3064: possible steady memory increase potentially leading to KSP instability/slowness/unusual texture lighting/slow crash - https://git.io/JWDKD
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