egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ hey, I have a question, how much harder does principia make the game
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ depends on what you find difficult
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ it changes how the planets gravity field works or something like that right?
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ it essentially deletes patched conics and replaces it with n-body
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ so you get lagrange points and all that
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ Im not into the cientific words... sorry XD. could you simplify?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​umguy⟩ the physics is more realistic
<queqiao-> ⟨l​pg⟩ the Moon and the Earth both pull at you at the same time
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ oh, would that make it easier to get to the moon?
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ trying to figure out how it would change my way to fly the rockets and overhaul planing
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ if you don't understand these concepts, maybe play RO/RP1 for a while before installing Principia
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-kLLeE7n0
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ if you don't understand these concepts, maybe play RO/RP1 for a while before installing Principia, also watch this video
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-kLLeE7n0 (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​umguy⟩ it makes it a little more difficult to plan, but there are actually ways to reduce the deltaV needed in exchange for a longer travel time.
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ I did play for a while (didn't get very far tho, got to the moon)
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ I will see the video tho
<queqiao-> ⟨S​umguy⟩ I like how Scott Manley demonstrated RO and Principia, but actually uses neither.
<queqiao-> ⟨S​umguy⟩ I like how Scott Manley demonstrated RO and Principia, but actually uses neither. /s (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ XD
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ havent see him play in a while actually
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3PCCJZzVvg
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ here is another example of what you can do
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3PCCJZzVvg (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨K​raken⟩ That video is a great demonstrator for what you can do with principia, also just a work of art to see in general
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ (Though the keyword is _can do_, not _you can do_... Reach is on an entirely different level.)
<queqiao-> ⟨K​raken⟩ Yeah lol
<queqiao-> ⟨K​raken⟩ Reach used 3.8 km/s of delta v from LEO to visit every planet in the solar srystem so..... lol
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ um... are those predictions ?
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ do you know about reference frames
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ if not, then this diagram will be very confusing
<queqiao-> ⟨K​raken⟩ Orbits look very wacky when viewed from an incorrect reference frames, to the point where it took thousands of years for us humans to figure out why the planets moved the way they do in the night sky
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ well, all reference frames are "correct"
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ just some are more useful than others
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ Dam... I guess principia justs makes ksp into an entire new game XD
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/wiki/Concepts
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ or atleast experience
<queqiao-> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ you know what I really should have linked that earlier
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ XD ty
<queqiao-> ⟨K​raken⟩ Planetary orbits when viewed from Earth don't make a whole lot of sense lel
<queqiao-> ⟨K​raken⟩ In fact I'm pretty sure principia allows you to view the different planets orbits from Earth's reference frame
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ yeah, it is even the default when you look at the tracking station :D
<queqiao-> ⟨K​raken⟩ That's awesome
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ yah its gonna be a whole new game, really quick tho, whats the best ksp version to play right now?
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ yah its gonna be a whole new game, really quick tho, whats the best ksp version to play right now? also rp0 or 1 (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ wow XD
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ the question is... will it work with 1.11.2?
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ the question is... will it work with 1.11.2? (The full mod pack of rp0) (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ the question is... will it work with 1.11.2? (The base mod pack of rp0) (edited)
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ questions about RP-0 (or is it RP-1 these days?) may find more useful answers in the appropriate channels; while this place is in the KSP-RO server, it is not really RO-specific (and while I often play with RSS, I have never used RP-n)
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ oh ok ty, I will send this question to another channel then,
<queqiao-> ⟨M​PGPT⟩ oh ok ty, I will send this question to another channel then, ty again (edited)
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<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ This channel allows cats though
<queqiao-> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ are there issues with time warp in principia?
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ i broke venus
* raptop assumes that lamont ran monte-carlo simulations until he managed to collide mercury with venus
* raptop meows at zeusbeer's cat(s)
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ ahhh, no i believe i just negated all the matter, oops
<raptop> The VERITAS and DAVINCI+ teams will be very cross with you
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ it was just for a few hours, i fixed it now
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ ```
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ [1.0714951307589507e+08 854981.7415514359 -6.452827484884736e+06 0.5153657904821899 31.78497847012369 14.269482848622964]
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ 1.071512260461286E+08, 8.373039842559770E+05, -6.460127553896390E+06, 5.191682081477956E-01, 3.178664910166752E+01, 1.427010459928927E+01
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ ```
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ barring the fact that i don't know how to properly format floats in go yet, that's not half bad
<raptop> ah
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ that's Sun-Venus-Jupiter integrated for a year with 8.64 second timesteps with RK4 compared to JPL reality
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ looks like i start losing precision at closer to timesteps of a day
<raptop> hm, ~3.6 million timesteps
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ yeah when i wasn't get anything close to correct, i jacked up the precision until it started to hurt
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ ```
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ [1.0715122179023428e+08 837393.0640553215 -6.460087432656234e+06 0.5191386683115444 31.78665193255125 14.270107689163268]
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ ```
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ including all the major bodies that JPL has GMs for, and dropping it down to 3000 iterations gets quite close really
<raptop> I am legally required to ask if you're getting Mercury's perihelion precession wrong by ~43"/century
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ oh that's far from the only problem with my code
<raptop> heh
<raptop> Have you summoned the wrath of egg and/or kahan?
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<queqiao-> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Kahan?
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg|matrix|egg⟩ http://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ pupper
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ @egg so what's a halfway decent, simplish symplectic integrator to replace rk4? are the higher order methods on the wiki page useful at all? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symplectic_integrator#A_fourth-order_example
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ higher-order methods *are* good, we use them, but… Candy–Rozmus–Forest–Ruth is neither very high order nor very good among methods of its order
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ the multistep methods require startup (but then again you have an rk4, you can just set its step to something tiny and use that for startup), otherwise they are all the same kind of thing just with different coefficients
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ you can find the coefficients here (all sources are linked in bibliography.pdf) https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/blob/master/integrators/methods.hpp
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ looks like i need to look up Quinlan
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ also Blanes and Moan
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ but Blanes and Moan 2002 SRKN14A in stock and unknown solar systems <https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/blob/11c7cbf53b510ff5c271446faea79f5cbc07e556/ksp_plugin/integrators.cpp#L36-L42>
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ the multistep methods can get « corrupted » if their stepsize is too large for what happens to the trajectory, whereas the single-step methods like the SRKNs are stateless and will just happily recover from poorly-simulated encounters
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ so if we don’t know anything about the system we go for an SRKN, it’s safer
<queqiao-> ⟨e​gg⟩ (the SLMSes are faster of course, that’s why we use them for RSS)
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ocialistComrade⟩ Guys does principia work well?
<queqiao-> ⟨S​ocialistComrade⟩ Bugs n all
<queqiao-> ⟨E​louda⟩ its amazing, does take a little getting used to
<queqiao-> ⟨l​amont⟩ cool, i think i will look at chewing through the methods in the SRKN paper
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ It is a very different experience than the normal orbits, if you are new to RO, then it might be a little overwhelming
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<queqiao-> ⟨N​ewfieStargazer⟩ Thinking of installing Principia with RO; do I need to start a new game?
<queqiao-> ⟨N​ewfieStargazer⟩ Have been playing RO/RP-1 now for the past 2-3 months
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ It should be fine to add to a current game as long as you don't have craft on transfer trajectories
<queqiao-> ⟨N​ewfieStargazer⟩ So if I have craft in orbits, they will play nice?
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Wouldn't that mess with the planet alignment?
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I.e. Not similar to real life
<queqiao-> ⟨N​ewfieStargazer⟩ I can start a new campaign
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Principia will recompute the solar system from scratch if I understand correctly
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Vessels in orbit around a body is fine, if a vessel is in travel to a body, that body will move and you are now heading to nothing
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Wow that's cool, didn't know that
<queqiao-> ⟨N​ewfieStargazer⟩ Just as long as it 100% compatible with RO/RP-1
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ It is, but I suggest removing asteroids / comets
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Makes time warping a little easier
<queqiao-> ⟨N​ewfieStargazer⟩ Ok noted 👍
<queqiao-> ⟨N​ewfieStargazer⟩ Any good YT tutorials?
<queqiao-> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/wiki/concepts <- this is a good place to start
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<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I will be working on one
* raptop wonders if doing a NRHO counts as "something cool" or not
<queqiao-> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Rendezvous in NRHO would certainly count
<queqiao-> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ NRHO in itself is cool yes
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2973: Documentation for a correctly-rounded cube root - https://git.io/J3BRj
<raptop> error: cubes are not round
<raptop> (sphere-roots!)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Eeehhh. This is a new crash that I never experienced before? Worth reporting on the repo?
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ > I0617 00:06:11.477227 2608 plugin.cpp:404] Inserted loaded vessel NROL - 1 Probe (6b6ecce3-be08-435c-9748-2d1f944e5b18)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ > @ 00007FF84AF6640F google::LogMessageFatal::~LogMessageFatal [0x00007FF84AF6640E+46]
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ > @ 00007FF823455508 principia__VesselVelocity [0x00007FF823455507+1378279]
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ > @ 00007FF8233FDEE2 principia__VesselVelocity [0x00007FF8233FDEE1+1020353]
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ > @ 00007FF8232D5133 principia__FreeVesselsAndPartsAndCollectPileUps [0x00007FF8232D5132+386]
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ > @ 000002976561EFCD (No symbol) [0x000002976561EFCC]
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ > F0617 00:06:11.477227 2608 vessel.cpp:153] Check failed: !parts_.empty()
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Also, plugin.cpp:404 _nice_
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ (Happens when I 'go to' vessel using KCT's menu)
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ Apparently the vessel I am trying to load is 'broken' to the point that I have to enable unbreakable joints in order to load the vehicle for it not to explode on load 😮
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ it somehow is the heatshield 😕 which explodes due to g-forces xD
<queqiao-> ⟨A​shnoom⟩ and now it insta-exploded when reentering 😐 due to excessive heat. _weird_ ohwell. Not a principia issue. Although it was the 'cause' of the crash
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2973: Documentation for a correctly-rounded cube root - https://git.io/J3BRj
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #2973: Documentation for a correctly-rounded cube root - https://git.io/J3BRj