egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (replace your existing ksp_plugin_adapter.dll with that one)
<queqiao->
⟨scimas⟩ egg I think you need that fix in both of the if branches (or out of it or somewhere else too) because now I get a faded line between the start and end point instead of the bold dashed line..
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ right yes of course, now instead of doing nothing at all because it is in a branch where it does nothing because logic, it does the wrong thing, because I was messing with the colours rather than the indices.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ scimas the ad hoc builds will continue until rendering improves!
<queqiao->
⟨scimas⟩ That's fine, happy to help. I just wish restarting KSP wasn't such chore -_-
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah, the KSP side of Principia is always a pain because of that
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (and here where it’s system specific it’s even worse, I can’t see the issue here :-p)
<queqiao->
⟨scimas⟩ I can share the save to see if that helps. My setup is not too filled with a bunch of visual and other mods. Only 18 or so total mods.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I think I understand where the issue is, and it should really happen basically half the time on a dashed trajectory—but I have never seen it
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ so I think to an extent it must depend on something in the graphics stack, which is rather trickier to replicate.
<queqiao->
⟨SpaceNome⟩ was it just me, or when i was doing some of the first stuff that needed spin stabilization in and out of the atmosphere, it was always going all over the place and where i had pointed it too, which i know is going to harm later spin stabilized moon missions. It is just a principia thing?
<queqiao->
⟨scimas⟩ ⟪egg⟫ scimas the ad hoc builds will continue […] ⮪ That seems to have fixed the problem.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (I mean, I am looking at building a new computer right now, so I’ll be upgrading from my GTX 1060, but that will take more time than we have before the new moon :-p)
<queqiao->
⟨scimas⟩ ⟪egg⟫ (I mean, I am looking at building a new […] ⮪ Haha, definitely. Do you already have a lead on whatever GPU you want to buy? That's the biggest obstacle for building PCs these days.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ ⟪scimas⟫ Haha, definitely. Do you already have a […] ⮪ The main decision was actually around the CPU for me, but that may be a bit atypical
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ gotta compile Principia faster, also run Principia faster, what is this graphics thing
<queqiao->
⟨lpg⟩ compilers haven't learned to leverage the gpu yet?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (probably going to get a mid-GeForce 30something much like I got a mid-10something last time)
<queqiao->
⟨scimas⟩ What I've heard is that the intel 12xxx CPUs are pretty good from a gaming perspective, no idea about productivity.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I had been looking more towards the 10xxx (Cascade Lake), at the higher end, but then that overlapped both in performance and price with some of the Xeon W (also Cascade Lake), which seems interesting. The Ice Lake Xeons don’t seem to properly exist yet in terms of motherboards with the right chipsets, and it’s not like I am overly excited about VPCLMULQDQ.
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<bees>
something stops you from simply plugging a 5950x with ecc ram?
<bees>
it is still the best "set and forget" cheap productivity build
<bees>
11900k might destroy it in avx512 workloads (and melt in process), 12900k might be faster in general workloads (and melt in process), but ecc ram is hard to pass by, it works on any modern OS, and does not require water cooling to get the most of it
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ If you're looking for ECC support you need to be careful with even the 5950x
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ ECC support on Ryzen is not official and up to the motherboard manufactures to "support". It can be very hit or miss, especially on early Zen 3 chips.
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ Also, the 5950x getting destroyed in avx512 workloads requires an avx512 workload to actually exist.
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ +:^)
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ Considering the latest consumer gen of intel CPU's doesn't support avx512, I don't predict avx512 in gaming being relevant going forward.
<bees>
i encountered an avx512 workload recently
<bees>
and it indeed was significantly faster on server xeon compared to my local 5900x
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ I'm just curious, what was it?
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ I can count avx512 workloads on one hand
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ ...So it was a workload created by intel, lol
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ Sounds about right
<bees>
it is a wrapper around _very_ popular gradient boosting algos
<bees>
it was optimized for avx512 by intel
<bees>
and yes, it did work, and it was quite a bit faster
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ Intel has been trying to invent a reason to justify avx512 for awhile now, and judging by its lack of support on 12th gen I'd say they're either abandoning it or it's going to xeon-only.
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ AFAIK even the rumored HEDT CPU's won't have avx512
<bees>
not by the amount they stated, because i did not compare with stock, but still significantly faster
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ AVX512 workloads on my HEDT CPU (back when I had one) made it unstable.
<bees>
idk, at the end i used it at real compute-limited task and it did directly benefit the results
<bees>
yes, it was a first time i encountered avx512 workload too, but it worked a lot better than i expected it to work
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ Well, just have to ask yourself is that benefit on that specific task worth losing 8~ cores?
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ 8~ cores in all other tasks, that is.
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ It wouldn't in mine, but I suppose it's up to your needs.
<bees>
if the only stuff i would be doing is that task, then yes
<queqiao->
⟨Alex6511⟩ Well, that's kinda my point.
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<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ btw what can happen if I switch to principia mid career and there are flights already in orbit?
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ Vessels in orbit around a planet should be fine. Vessels in heliocentric orbits (going between planets) are going to get messed up, since the planets move, meaning your probe is heading towards nothing instead of Mars for example
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ ah ok
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ But make a backup just in case
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ alright will do
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ btw is there actually any practical use to langrage points in ksp when using principia?
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ You can put a lunar relay there to have comms on the far side. It requires a lot of maintenance though
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ maintenance in terms of correction maneuvers?
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ Yep, the L1 and 2 points do not have stable orbits. 4 and 5 do, but they are less useful I think
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ how long do you usually have between corrections?
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ For the Moon, once a month
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ jesus ok
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ I did it once, it was annoying
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ how do I actually move the maneuver node in the flight planner
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ time slider
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ it's under the three dV sliders
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ ah thanks
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ im doing something wrong, trying to get from earth to mars, what refference frame do I use?
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ ⟪Infernal⟫ im doing something wrong, trying to get […] ⮪ heliocentric ?
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ i'm doing something worng
<queqiao->
⟨lancis man⟩ I am trying to use the manevuer thing in principia to get to the moon. how do I point the correct way to burn the maneuver node?
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ There should be a button to show the maneuverer on the navball. Do note that the time shown on the navball is wrong, the time in the Principia window is the correct one
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ ⟪Soviet Onion⟫ heliocentric ? ⮪ doesn't seem to want to work
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ ⟪Infernal⟫ doesn't seem to want to work ⮪ what do you mean by "not work" ?
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ like I'm not getting a mars encounter, I'm doing something completely wrong and idk what it is
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ huh, without knowing much, we can't say for sure where you are going wrong
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ like, you could also be launching at the wrong time, or burning to the wrong inclination
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ I have a transfer window in 9 days, and I also have roughly the right ejection angle. ill try to get a screenshot here in a minute
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ idk what plotting frame or manveuvering frame to use
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ HCI might be better for the initial planning
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ ⟪Infernal⟫ idk what plotting frame or manveuvering […] ⮪ the plotting frame is geocentric _(:_
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ heliocentric is HCI
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ changing that didnt change much still not getting any kind of encounter with mars
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ ⟪Infernal⟫ changing that didnt change much still […] ⮪ play around with the plotting. Reference frames don't change the trajectory, only changes how you see it
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ what does the maneuver frame selection affect exactly?
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ That changes what the tangent, normal and binormal are aligned with, similar to how the plotting frame changes how your camera is aligned
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ hm alright
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ I might just have to uninstall, I'm not even getting close without having some insane 12k dv burn
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ Learning interplanetary transfer immediately after installing will be a steep learning curve. Lunar stuff first would probably be easier and teach you the basics
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ dies principia change delta v requirements for transfers if the inclination is off?
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ I tend to disagree with that. I wouldn't consider interplanetary any more difficult. If you know that you're in the right LAN parking orbit from TWP then you should basically just be able to slap down a maneuver in ECI frame and put your plotting fram in MSO to figure out the timing.
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ Not more than without Principia
<queqiao->
⟨lancis man⟩ I think I have made a mistake. can't get a lunar encounter in a sim because my inclination is off. and I also can't move to any other launch site because I have invested all my points in the cape
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ * the ECI frame and put your plotting frame
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ i dont know if im in the right lan for the launch to mars, but I do know that i have an inclination of 28.5
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ That basically doesn't mean anything.
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ +😅
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ what does twp mean?
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ Transfer Window Planner, specifically the version linked in the pins of #ro-general . It has begun to reform the people towards caring about LAN.
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ oh
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ I have TWP
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ ⟪Infernal⟫ i dont know if im in the right lan for […] ⮪ one good approximation to get into right inclination is to get into Moon's inclination, which is not 28.5
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ at least that's what I have heard
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ but is being off in the lan/inclination shouldn't cause that much of a delta v increase right?
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ It can absolutely make a big difference. Although the specific 12km/s number you're citing is probably a mix of wrong LAN and being unfamiliar with principia.
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ One way to avoid caring about LAN is to spend a bit more on ascent and launch along the terminator. Not that popular though because you still need to know how to launch along the terminator.
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ tor
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ no idea what that eeven means
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ changing inclination once in orbit is a very dV expensive thing to do
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ * very dV expensive thing
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ ⟪Infernal⟫ no idea what that eeven means ⮪ Means going polar, such that the orbit is ‘aligned’ with Earth’s orbit around the Sun
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ The terminator on a body is the boundary between being illuminated by the sun and not. So launching along the Earth's terminator will ensure at some point you can make an efficient departure burn assuming you do so within a few days.
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ * Sun
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ ah
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ Probably best to go with TWP as mentioned before though. The terminator thing was more useful before there was a convenient tool for getting the right LAN. All this has also moved firmly away from #principia and towards just general interplanetary so I'll stop.
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ i do have a question about twp, general it is?
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ Probably #ro-general is the most appropriate
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ is trhere a way to not show the flight paths of other planets aside from the one you are interested in?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ no, but picking an appropriate reference frame should help a great deal.
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ I'm trying something hopeless, trying to get an encounter with a planet with a stray probe that still has some delta-v left for a possible flyby, but I need the plan length to be like 3 or more years ahead and eventually it just gets supered cluttered with other planet. So I'm not entirely sure which referenace frame would be best
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ actually I think the orbit it too stable so nvm
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Miraculously, the name of the release appears to display correctly in KSP
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (my I18N expectations are very low when it comes to Unity...)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ The shaping of the द्र seems odd, though:
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Back in بوژگانی the release notes said
<queqiao->
> The release name, being in Farsi, is written right-to-left. KSP doesn't know how to do such an advanced thing, so it shows up inverted in the UI. Apologies to Farsi speakers.https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/wiki/Change-Log#%D8%A8%D9%88%DA%98%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I guess this time we need to apologize to the users of the Devanagari script.
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ how low of an orbit can you get around the moon where its still stable?
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ ⟪egg⟫ The shaping of the द्र seems odd, […] ⮪ Huh, it can do the soft "dh" sound, but not the "dhr" ? 🤔
<raptop>
Infernal: uh, depends on inclination. Wikiality lists LRO as being in a 20x165 km orbit
<raptop>
(I want to say it's in that high inclination frozen orbit, so like 86 degrees)
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ where can I see this info? Could you link it?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ There is a pinned message with some graphs from a paper about stable orbits about the moon.
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ I've looked at those graphgs before but I have 0 clue how to understand them
<raptop>
*of course* the integration code is written in FORTRAN77
<queqiao->
⟨badgermasher⟩ There's really no reason for anything in astronomy to move away from the fortran that was originally written in the early/mid 80s by someone who is now retired. /s
<raptop>
Yeah, some stuff should probably use a more modern version like FORTRAN 95 or 03
<queqiao->
⟨Infernal⟩ is the flight plan affected by aerodynamic forces?