egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ That one is because KSP uses a version of lingoona which is too old: compare https://lingoona.com/cgi-bin/grammar#l=ru&t=%3C%3C%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%8B%D0%B9+%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%5En%3E%3E+&v=1.6.5&oh=1 and https://lingoona.com/cgi-bin/grammar#l=ru&t=%3C%3C%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ The other issues I can fix (I will ignore the overflow if you go to Ganymede for now).
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin opened pull request #3266: Fix some linguistic issues in the Russian translation - https://git.io/JyD2G
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #3266: Fix some linguistic issues in the Russian translation - https://git.io/JyD2G
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<queqiao->
⟨Tak⟩ I know this has probably been asked 100 times but I can’t find a good answer after searching for a while. What’s the “right” way to launch into the moons plane when getting ready to start sending rockets out toward it. How do you know what inclination to launch to?
<queqiao->
⟨Quadrupole⟩ In this channel you don't, or go to Kourou
<queqiao->
⟨Tak⟩ There’s no way to do it with principia?
<queqiao->
⟨Quadrupole⟩ Not if you are at Cape
<queqiao->
⟨Quadrupole⟩ In Principia lunar inclination wrt equator oscillate from 18 to 28 degrees over a period of 28.6 years
<queqiao->
⟨Tak⟩ Is there a “most efficient” way to get close and then try to change inclination in orbit, or should I just get into orbit and start playing around until I get an encounter?
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ See the most recent pin 😉
<queqiao->
⟨Tak⟩ Thanks!
<raptop>
If you're launching from a non-Kourou site, you're looking at an off-plane intercept
<queqiao->
⟨Kerbinator ("might" applied)⟩ it precesses IRL.
<queqiao->
⟨Kerbinator ("might" applied)⟩ By searching in wikipedia, it precesses (against ecliptic) at a period of 18.61 years for LAN node to finish a revolution (period of argument of periapsis precesses at period of 8.85 years)
<queqiao->
⟨Kerbinator ("might" applied)⟩ plus 23.44 inclination of Earth equator, you get this value (18-28 deg)
<raptop>
Okay, I guess you could use that oil platform off the coast of Kenya
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<queqiao->
⟨Butcher⟩ Of course there is, it's just not as straightforward.
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<queqiao->
⟨Quadrupole⟩ Yeah. Either a serious dog leg or wait for 18 years
<queqiao->
⟨Quadrupole⟩ But with Principia, that lunar plane will precess from equitorial buldge
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<queqiao->
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Or launch polar
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<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ No need for polar, just launch east at the right time
<queqiao->
⟨Quadrupole⟩ He was asking about "launch into the moons plane"
<queqiao->
⟨Stonesmile⟩ Yeah, for that you want to wait for major lunar standstill, or ask ESA nicely (both of which have already been mentioned)
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ Hey guys
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ I need some help. I just spent over 3000m/s on a burn and not much seemed to of happened?
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Looks like an impact happened. And what was supposed to happen?
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Or do you mean that you already performed the burn and the result is different from the plan?
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ The maneuver was planned in Moon-centred frame for some reason, which is not good. You probably executed a maneuver planned in Moon-centred frame in ECI. That will not work.
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Since you are in LEO, maneuvering frame should be ECI, definitely not a moon-centred frame.
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ ~~Looks like an impact happened. And what was supposed to happen?~~ (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Some more details how you performed the burn might help (Manually or maybe with mechjeb? Using the blue maneuver market on the navball or otherwise?)
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Another guess... maybe in fact everything worked correctly, but the prediction is simply too short and does not show the full trajectory?
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Some more details how you performed the burn might help (Manually or maybe with mechjeb? Using the blue maneuver marker on the navball or otherwise?) (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Another guess... maybe in fact everything worked correctly, but the prediction is simply too short and does not show the full trajectory? edit: no, it is not the case, current orbit is a highly elliptical Earth orbit, so not an outgoing trajectory to the moon... (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ But this confirms the suspicion that prediction is too short, which is why the full orbit is not displayed.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ it certainly doesn’t help that we are not seeing the prediction settings, and that instead we have the patched conics confusing everything.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ I’m not sure what part of « do not use for flight planning! » is unclear
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ but it's probably not the root cause why the maneuver failed
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ no, but showing the wrong things makes it very hard to read the map to figure out what happened.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ If you want help, you are going to have to give us more context than this; see the questions above.
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<queqiao->
⟨Kerbinator ("might" applied)⟩ Uh
<queqiao->
⟨Kerbinator ("might" applied)⟩ well principia only allows drawing vessel trajectory in one view so you have to frequently switch between views 🤷
<queqiao->
⟨Kerbinator ("might" applied)⟩ (unless change principia so that multiple trajectories can be drawn for the same vessel)
<queqiao->
⟨Kerbinator ("might" applied)⟩ So this is the most benificial place stock orbits can offer, showing you both ECI burn and MCI intercept at same time
<queqiao->
⟨Kerbinator ("might" applied)⟩ For principia, you must switch your frame to a Moon-centered frame to see the encounter
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<queqiao->
⟨Kerbinator(no guarantee suggest)⟩ Note: I have exceptionally fast gravity assist plotting method with medium effiency (currently 2body only)
<queqiao->
⟨Kerbinator(no guarantee suggest)⟩ This will be published at Feb 1.2022 (Spring Festival); Principia for me currently, is only for realism
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<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ !matrix approve
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ 👀
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ Ah, the bot can’t manage webhooks so it doesn’t post in the matrix-to-discord direction
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (trying to g
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (trying to get a setup that’s slightly less clunky, hopefully one that is aware of replies in particular) (edited)
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<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ OK I need to disable this sort of notification
<queqiao->
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Does it notify you on matrix when that happens?
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ yeah I invited myself from the admin account
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ hopefully this worked
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Interesting
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Reply?
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<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ On the other hand replies from this side look like matrix replies on the matrix side, which hopefully means that I can get a matrix-to-IRC bot to transmit the appropriate context all the way to the IRC side
<queqiao->
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ This is getting out of hand. Now there are two eggs !
<egg|laptop|egg>
well, there’s still the IRC egg
<raptop>
🥚🥚
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<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] jonesmz opened issue #3267: FAQ claims support for wrong KSP versions - https://git.io/JySh5
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<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy commented on issue #3267: FAQ claims support for wrong KSP versions - https://git.io/Jy9vS
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy closed issue #3267: FAQ claims support for wrong KSP versions - https://git.io/JySh5
<queqiao->
⟨morzenmebs⟩ Could I look at the source code for how you implemented this? It would be very useful for a bridge I’m using with another platform
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ What frame should I be using? Just gave it another go this morning and the same thing happens
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ Its almost like the dotted line im looking at is not what the burn is try ing to do
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Now the maneuvering frame is ECI, which is correct. Plotting frame can be ECI for rough planning, then you can switch to for example, MCI for fine tuning. The question is how you perform the burn?
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ Im using mechjeb principia node execute to do the burn
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ So i click show on navball to presumably add the planned flight as a maneuver and then get mechjeb to execute it
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Don't use mechjeb to execute principia maneuvers
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ (It exists, but doesn't (yet, at least) take spool-up into account, so it's inaccurate.)
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ It has a button for it though?
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ Whats the best / quickest way to know when to stop burning since the delta v doesnt change on the burn indicator? Just calculate it?
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Use smart ass maneuver hold and perform the burn manually
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Timing is *roughly* given in principia flight planner window, but in fact can vary for many reasons
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ This is just an impactor probe so i dont need to get to accurate with it
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ Okay cool - so basically correction burns are always going to be a thing so RCS is a definite must
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Yes, correction burn are almost always required
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Yes, correction burns are almost always required (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ ive only got a single ignition on this so hopefully rcs is enough haha
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Watch the purple noodle get close to the plan and cut off when it's close enough (or, starts to move farther away if your timing is too off/your trajectory is too sensitive).
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ So this is what is happening with my principia trajectory
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ The burn is complete but i am nowhere near finished my trajectory?
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ What's the actual error from not accounting spool-up time? If you don't burn the additional 1-2 sec, or if you do burn them past the end of the Principia node?
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Underburn
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ You probably stoppoed burning too early, yes
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ And reasons include 1) Variance and 2) Spool-up
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ (ie, we say it doesn't work, but what is the actual effect and is it beyond something you would expect to fix in mid course correction anyway?)
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ I let it burn for a few seconds after the principia time told me
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ Is it because i am using physics warp during the burn?
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Keep in mind that Principia's burn time assumes perfect performance and timing, which isn't true. Which is why I said to eyeball the cutoff.
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ it's better not to use physics warp unless your PC is able to keep timewarp green at all times...
<queqiao->
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Keep in mind that Principia's burn time assumes perfect performance and timing, which isn't true when you actually execute the burn. Which is why I said to eyeball the cutoff. (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ What do you mean green?
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ The arrows turn red or something?
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ yes, when the PC is struggling, it goes first yellow and then red
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ this means that you start losing precision in physics calculation
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ Um, no
<queqiao->
⟨pEdro⟩ it means the game slows down
<queqiao->
⟨pEdro⟩ it means the game slows down, to keep up (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Are you sure? All kind of weird things happen in time warp. Vessels wobble, planes disintegrate...
<queqiao->
⟨pEdro⟩ it means the game slows down, to keep up
<queqiao->
⟨pEdro⟩ You set your Physics ∆ and the game keeps your actual Physics ∆ close to it (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ Using physics warp, on the other hand, IS the definition of sacrificing precision.
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Are you sure? All kind of weird things happen in physics time warp. Vessels wobble, planes disintegrate... (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ Using physics warp, on the other hand, IS the definition of changing precision. (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨pEdro⟩ also, unless you start doing hyperoptimised extremely long burns, its not the simulation accuracy, but your inherent human reaction time that makes burns imprecise
<queqiao->
⟨pEdro⟩ how much BetterTimeWarp is "allowed" to correct for that while still keeping historical accuracies is debatable
<queqiao->
⟨pEdro⟩ how much BetterTimeWarp slowdown is "allowed" to correct for that while still keeping historical accuracies is debatable (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨DRVeyl⟩ Using physics warp, on the other hand, IS the definition of changing precision. (Warp > 1, less precision. Warp < 1, more precision until some extremes) (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨pEdro⟩ also, unless you start doing hyperoptimised extremely long burns, its not the simulation accuracy, but your inherent human reaction time, and sometimes engine spoolup, that makes burns imprecise (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨pEdro⟩ how much BetterTimeWarp slowdown is "allowed" to correct for that while still keeping historical accuracy is debatable (edited)
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ Now its just a matter of my AJ10 lasting over 2 minutes haha
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ Well, this is good to know about physics time warp 🙂 So, it's simple, I must not use it when precision is required, whether the PC is keeping up or not.
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<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ So how exactly do i plot a correction burn? I overshot the moon a tad lol
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ This should be an okay impact i think
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ Now is there any other variable outside what I am looking at now that is going to change my trajectory or has the planner taken everything into account?
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ The magenta line is not plan, but prediction. You will hit the Moon if you don't do any more burns.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ the planner is the thing that gives you the dashed trajectory; the fuchsia noodle is the *prediction*, and that one is what will happen if you don’t use your engines
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ But unfortunately impact is not shown in this frame
<queqiao->
⟨Stocky⟩ Oh wow the moon caught up really quick
<queqiao->
⟨von Kerman⟩ I wonder though if impact speed will be sufficient with such indirect impact (it looks like you're going to impact the far side?)
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ you can only see whether you will end up hitting the moon in a reference frame where the moon does not move; Use MEO for a look at the transfer, MCMF to see where you will impact, MCI to inspect orbits around the moon.
<queqiao->
⟨egg⟩ (and look at the alt texts over all those buttons, which tells you which frames to use in what circumstances.)
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<egg|laptop|egg>
test
* raptop
grabs a red pen and starts marking up the test
* egg|laptop|egg
pokes the relay bot with a stick
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<egg|laptop|egg>
test
<queqiao->
<egg|matrix|egg> well, the test made it to Matrix at least
<egg|laptop|egg>
the matrix-to-discord side seems to have died in the meantime
<queqiao->
<egg|matrix|egg> what do replies look like?
<queqiao->
<egg|matrix|egg> egg|laptop|egg: what about these?
<egg|laptop|egg>
OK, not ideal, but much better than nothing.
<queqiao->
<QeDelphyn (Xšayāršā/-ām/-āyā)> the bot is getting an upgrade, I see
<queqiao->
<QeDelphyn (Xšayāršā/-ām/-āyā)> * The bot is getting an upgrade, I see.
<queqiao->
<egg> QeDelphyn (Xšayāršā/-ām/-āyā): Yes, and it had accumulated some backlog while one side of the bridge was down.