egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Are you playing with the rescaled stock system?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Principia will not activate the retrobop fix if any changes from the stock system are detected
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Are you playing with the rescaled stock system?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Principia will not activate the retrobop fix if any changes from the stock system are detected, afaik (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ No, I'm running the vanilla solar system, plus possibly a few extra stars, each with their own Kopernicus config. (I'm just gonna let those spare planets apocalypse themselves eventually lol)
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Plus might be fun to attempt to intercept a rogue planet
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ I also think I didn't apply the retrobop properly
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ If you have any changes whatsoever to the stock system, then you have to do the retrobop fix yourself
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ But, with the changes, the retrobop fix might not be enough
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Yeah and the way I did that was to just download the retrobop.cfg into the Kopernicus config folder
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Might not be enough to have the planets be stable, or the game? 😂😂
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Is an old conversation about stability of custom systems
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ fair
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ but yes even setting up the retrobop config right doesn't work well.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Kopernicus says there's been an exception maybe? I can't read the error because the KSP-AVC is complaining about some files being not in the right place I guess (did that since an update forever ago) and then the game just shuts down. No crash log or anything.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Lemme try without the fix altogether
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ your system is rescaled, the retrobop config is for a stock-scale system
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ > A word of warning: if your mod rescales the stock system, that config will not do the job; make a big (or small) retrobop yourself.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ I don't remember installing a rescaling mod though
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Unless adding distant stars counts as rescaling?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ ah, nevermind, I misread Paculino’s question as being a description of your setup
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ that's fine, happens to the best of us, especially on a late Friday ahah
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ what is the error you are running into?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ ~~your system is rescaled, the retrobop config is for a stock-scale system~~ (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Ah ha, that's the logs I was looking.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Apparently it's literally Principia throwing a fit because I'm using 1.12.0 instead of 1.12.2.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Which, if that's the problem, that's an easy fix
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Ah ha, that's the logs I was looking for.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Apparently it's literally Principia throwing a fit because I'm using 1.12.0 instead of 1.12.2.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Which, if that's the problem, that's an easy fix (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Thanks!
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ (I didn't think to check that folder because it didn't generate a Windows dialog box)
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ ...But I don't know why it didn't click. SIGABRT. Sig Abort.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Literally a quit signal.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Not entirely sure why the Principia decided to throw a SIGABRT instead of a warning for a version mismatch, but hey, if I cared so much I'd learn how to do it myself right?
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Not entirely sure why the Principia dev/team decided to throw a SIGABRT instead of a warning for a version mismatch, but hey, if I cared so much I'd learn how to do it myself right? (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ as for your apocalyptic question, the apocalypse is not, at its core, about the dynamical stability of your system; it is about the ability of Principia to represent the trajectories; it means that Principia is no longer capable of accurately applying the laws of physics with the parameters used for the system, so it should be seen as a hard error
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ ah.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ it used to be a crash, but since it can be beneficial to take a look at the situation to understand what needs to change we made it into an undismissable window
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ And I suppose there's no easy way to calculate a stable thing? Because I think I have like, 5 star systems, none of which are probably checked for stability, lol
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ well, I have good news for you, you can just get rid of those five star systems, you won’t get there anyway with Principia installed
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ You'd be surprised. I'm fully aware the Alcubierre drives I have installed won't work right, but I'm fairly sure it should be possible to use those ridiculously high power late game engines to get somewhere?
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ And if it was absolutely impossible to go interstellar, why is there a full patch system for a TRAPPIST recreation?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ You start in that system instead of ours
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ the TRAPPIST-1 patch replaces the system with the TRAPPIST-1 system
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ ...
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ THAT
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ is also going to be a problem
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ you cannot warp fast enough to do interstellar travel with Principia, because you still need to accurately simulate the moons and your commsats.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ But otherwise to be honest, if I have to choose between Principia and more stars, I'm choosing the stars. Half the reason I'm playing KSP is because I have an itch for mid future interstellar travel lol
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ ah
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ I mean
<raptop>
Interstellar travel tends to have... interesting... Δv implications
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ What if I DIDN'T need to warp that fast?
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ I MEANT it when I said I had options to reach ridiculous speeds.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ then it might work; you still need to do your homework and make sure your solar systems work though.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ yeah that's the biggest oopsie tbh. Think I'll stick to vanilla behavior for this pack, and save the orbital ballet for my next playthrough
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ (or alternatively mess with the numerics blueprint so Principia works with robust enough methods that it doesn’t run into numerical issues, but then things will be slower)
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Lmao my game's already running at 20FPS due to physics calc, on a medium sized ship. Slowness is already a thing.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ that looks like too much text for today. As I said I'll probably do another playthrough with either the vanilla system, or I swear I saw a patch for the Real Solar System mod
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ unless it doesn't need a patch on account of being based on a known stable system, lo
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ unless it doesn't need a patch on account of being based on a known stable system, lol (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ have you noticed which discord server you are in
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ ...
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ no I had not
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ lol
<raptop>
fa;sjklreiogn;hreger
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ any stable system just works, because we just apply the laws of physics, and yes, RSS is very much a special citizen in that we ship our own gravity models and initial conditions for it so you get the real deal as accurately as feasible
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ two questions. Is IRC a DID bot?
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Second, that's actually a question I had off the back of my mind.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ I'm FULLY aware that it'll cause an Apocalypse to happen.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ But since Principia enables physics for all celestial bodies... can you affect their orbit with sufficient means, like you previously could with asteroids?
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Or does Principia count a ship's mass and thrust as zero for all intents and purposes?
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Or does Principia count a ship's mass and thrust as zero for all intents and purposes related to celestial bodies? (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ > can you affect their orbit with sufficient means
<raptop>
The planets/moon in Principia can only affect eachother (and ships).
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ no.
<raptop>
Your ship's gravity is not calculated, and its thrust doesn't count for pushing them around
<raptop>
So no gravity tractors
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Was thinking more, it'd be fun to deorbit say Minmus
<raptop>
(This would of course require even more compute than Principia already needs)
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ But yes I'm still curious. Is IRC a DID bot?
<raptop>
I'm pretty sure I don't have Dissociative Identity Disorder
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ ...
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ Hold up are you telling me that there's a bot that interfaces Discord and an IRC server?
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ that's RAD
<raptop>
(Also the bot is a bridge to an IRC channel)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ raptop: what you do have, however, is a chronic inability to pass the Turing test.
<raptop>
🤖🤖🤖
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ SO YEAH.
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ While it's a shame, I'm gonna have to keep my fancies of having a Lagrange-using RemoteTech configuration and my fancies of going really far away as two different playthroughs
<queqiao-_>
⟨HURTZ⟩ (hell tbh, one of the biggest shames is that I also wanted Principia specifically because the SLIPPIST system previously did some real weird shenanigans whereas I'd enter the SLIPPIST star's SOI when exiting Kerbin's)
<raptop>
Anyway, the problem with deorbiting Minmus is that even with high Isp engines, you tend to need a craft that masses more than 1e-3 what Minmus does (possibly more than 1e-2)
<raptop>
Making wildy optimstic assumptions of an engine with an effective exhaust velocity of 3e8 m/s and a 200 m/s burn (think Gilly), I get a mass ratio of 1 + 6.67e-7
<raptop>
Gilly masses 1.24e17 kg, so this would imply ~8.3e10 kg of propellant
<raptop>
Minmus makes things several hundred times worse
<raptop>
Incidentally, deorbiting moons is weird because you're deep in a linear regime
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
_whitelogger has joined #principia
<bees>
raptop: you are doing it wrong
<bees>
assume effective exhaust velocity of ~1e5 m/s and use moon mass itself to deorbit it
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ Is it possible to setup mechjeb to execute principia nodes?
_whitelogger has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<queqiao-_>
⟨Kobymaru⟩ The Maneuver Node Planner has "execute next principia node", but unfortunately it doesn't work too well.
<queqiao-_>
⟨THSM⟩ Is there any way I can get principia's cool navball without the mod itself?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ No idea how it works, just know that it exists
<queqiao-_>
⟨siimav⟩ Actually I'm curious why Principia even mucks around with the navball texture.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ To make different reference frames noticeable on the navball?
<queqiao-_>
⟨THSM⟩ Does principia makes interplanetary mission harder?
<queqiao-_>
⟨THSM⟩ Because plotting a manuver with venus took me like 10 minutes
<queqiao-_>
⟨THSM⟩ Which feels like forever
<queqiao-_>
⟨THSM⟩ Because plotting a manuver with venus took me like 20 minutes (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Quadrupole⟩ Once you get the window using say, TWP, Principia actually makes it *easier* imo, as you can switch to the target body frame and fine tune there. It is most useful when you are planning multiple flybys.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Quadrupole⟩ I do wonder how did you end up spending 20 min. Shouldn't it just be set up a prograde maneuver with the prescribed Δv from TWP, find the right start time that gives an encounter, the fine tune (by adding normal) it to give the desired periapse?
<queqiao-_>
⟨QeDelphyn (Xšayāršā/-ām/-āyā)⟩ Moon is harder
<queqiao-_>
⟨THSM⟩ Because Im so used to the kerbol system
<queqiao-_>
⟨THSM⟩ It actually doesnt take me 20 minutes its just an exaduration
<queqiao-_>
⟨THSM⟩ But getting encounter really is hard
<queqiao-_>
⟨Quadrupole⟩ Try using TWP from the pinned message in #ro-general . It should give you the right ballpark.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Quadrupole⟩ How did you determine your parking orbit?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ For the reason given by Stonesmile. In the future with attitude keeping this should be tied to the attitude keeping frame
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ Either TWP is lying to me, or I'm doing something wrong 😦
<queqiao-_>
⟨lpg⟩ you don't have your LAN displayed anywhere on your screen, which suggests maybe you're not aware it's the single most important value
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ Well, I can't do anything to change the LAN when I'm already in orbit, can I? I just launched at the time suggested by TWP (or actually, 24 hours before the time suggested by TWP).
<queqiao-_>
⟨Quadrupole⟩ You can let it precess 🤔
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ Hmm, I see, maybe if I get lucky and it precesses in the direction I need and fast enough, it might help...
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ In any case this mission has already failed due to unrelated reasons, departure burn somehow deviated from prograde and there was not enough RCS fuel to correct. But still wondering how to launch the way TWP shows it 🤔
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ MJ launch to LAN
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ Hmm, so not paying attention to TWP departure time, but launching to LAN shown by TWP?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ Yeah, the time is not precise enough I think, better to use LAN
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ Actually it makes sense: TWP departure time is the time of the departure burn, not the time when I launch from the ground. This could explain the error.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Quadrupole⟩ Actually TWP departure time does not consider ejection phase angle. There is little connection between actual ejection time and TWP departure time.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Quadrupole⟩ That means it is fine to launch into the calculated LAN and setup the ejection next orbit.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Quadrupole⟩ Interplanetary windows are usually days wide, and you can makeup for the error using normal components. You are playing with n-bodies anyways, which TWP does not include.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Quadrupole⟩ Interplanetary windows are usually days wide, and you can make up for the error using normal components. You are playing with n-bodies anyways, which TWP does not include. (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ Yes, there is a lot of time to correct if the original orbit wasn't totally wrong... which I suspect it was in this case
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ And this seems to be main reason why this launch failed 🤦
<Yuval>
Hi, does anyone else encountering a problem with the vessel rotating during warp(atleast 90 degrees per 3 hrs)? with SAS engaged ofcourse.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ Principia doesn't care about SAS in timewarp, so a really small rotation is still there. Only way to make sure your vessel keeps pointing in the same direction is to spin stabilize it
<queqiao-_>
⟨QeDelphyn (Xšayāršā/-ām/-āyā)⟩ harder with Principia than without Principia
<Yuval>
does it also applies to mechjeb?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Yes.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ The point being, whatever control system you use outside of warp stops working during warp, which means any residual rotation (it's never going to be perfectly non-rotating) continues.
<Yuval>
ok, I will try to spin stabalize my spacecraft and see if it isn't a problem with a spinning frame of reference.
<Yuval>
because the rotation did seem to be pretty consistent, not residual...
<Yuval>
ohh the wonderful world of spin stabilizition, yeah it was residual...
<Yuval>
anyway, thanks. I was dead sure there was a problem with frame of reference again. cheers and have fun!
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ VCI for an overview of the whole transfer to Venus is a poor choice
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ (HCI and GSE and VSO are where it’s at here; the fact that you don’t have the reference frame selector open suggests you’re not dancing between frames anywhere as much as you should)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ I also notice that your MechJeb speaks Russian ; would you be interested in a Russian translation of Principia ?
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ I use VCI to fine tune the maneuver. Agree that it would be better to post a heliocentric view here
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ So at first I use heliocentric frame, make a rough maneuver, then switch to VCI and tune it until impact.
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ Yes, I'm Russian 🙂 Does a Russian translation of Principia exist?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ GSE out and VSO in would help
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ it does not exist, but I could make one, with help from Russian users of course, because I do not speak Russian
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ Interesting
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ (but I also do not speak Chinese and I did contribute to getting the technical terms right for Chinese, so you don’t need to be an astronomer to help)
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ Won't be easy to translate though, because already now I don't understand the terms: GSE is this?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ yeah I think it tries to look up abbreviations and falls on its face.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ as for the explanations of the technical terms, that’s precisely why having it in Russian is beneficial, this stuff is tricky and an additional language barrier doesn’t help
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ I have a paper by Лидов lying around which be enoguh to get lots of orbit analyser terminology right for instance
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ I have a paper by Лидов lying around which be enough to get lots of orbit analyser terminology right for instance (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ There doesn't seem to be a lot to translate, but it needs to be translated very precisely
<raptop>
...is the paper in en or ru?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ again, the precision of terminology is something I can handle
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ (also evidently the names of the planets in RSS should be localized, but that I can do myself with a dictionary to look up gender and animacy)
* raptop
is certain that if egg were doing the localizing there would be questions about why there's a planet named Herschel
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ Let me try translating it
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ raptop: ru, Эволюця орбит искусственных спутников планет под действием гравитационных возмущений внешних тел
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ in Исусственные спутники земли 8
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ raptop: ru, Эволюция орбит искусственных спутников планет под действием гравитационных возмущений внешних тел (edited)
<raptop>
hah
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ [Лид61] in the Principia bibliography
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ The English translation is [LC61]
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ trying to find the bibliography now..
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ found it but it's just the bibliography, not the paper itself
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ don’t worry about the technical terms
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ I’ll do them
egg|laptop|egg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ I have a feeling that some of terms are best left without translation or in two languages... "Patched conics" = "Сопряженные конические сечения", I wouldn't understand what it means if I read only the Russian term 😦
Yuval has left #principia [webchat.esper.net]
<queqiao-_>
⟨lancis man⟩ Idk if this has to do with principia but every rocket I make tips over in the upper atmosphere. even rockets that worked without principia tips over. is this a principia issue?
<queqiao-_>
⟨lancis man⟩ well simple wac corporals work but rockets like the V2 or similar tips over
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ are these v2 guided or spin stabilized?
<queqiao-_>
⟨lancis man⟩ spin stabilized
<queqiao-_>
⟨lancis man⟩ I also tried without spin stabilization but still doesn't work
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ rotation changes but it's not a principia issue, it's just more realistic
<queqiao-_>
⟨lancis man⟩ what do I do then?
<queqiao-_>
⟨lancis man⟩ do I make them guided?
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ if it's the type of rockets that do 3000km milestone contract, they are supposed to have guided lower stage
<queqiao-_>
⟨lancis man⟩ no just a Biological sample one
egg|laptop|egg has joined #principia
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Do you have fins?
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ then why care about tipping and tumbling
<queqiao-_>
⟨lancis man⟩ because it tips over to early
<queqiao-_>
⟨lancis man⟩ it starts to tip over when the apogee is around 100km
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ if it tips over still in air, fins should help
<queqiao-_>
⟨lancis man⟩ I have fins
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ if it tips over still in the air, fins should help (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ Terms that KSP invents are complete crap, but Principia doesn’t use those. Terms that actually exist in astrodynamics should be translated, and then users can look them up and find explanations in their language, it turns out that astrodynamics exists in Russia too ; but again, I will take care of translating those technical terms.