egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy labeled pull request #3228: Pick up the Hamilton hotfix - https://git.io/JMb8z
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #3225: Use new-style DiscreteTrajectory in Entwurf - https://git.io/JMQNi
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5298/
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Failure. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5298/
<queqiao-_> ⟨g​ravShark⟩ Getting back into the swing of principia playthroughs. what's the best in-game way to plan and set alarms for interplanetary transfers? the age old LEO satellite and mechjeb adv transfer method, TWP, Astrogator, something else?
<queqiao-_> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ There is a version of TWP linked in #ro-general That should work quite good, redoing the TWP calc close to the window might be a good idea
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I normally used kerbal alarm clock and just launched at the launch windows
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ It works with principia too
<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ TWP works very well (including with principia), _except_ for fast transfers to outer planets. There's a bug (apparently to do with sun-hyperbolic trajectories) that makes it get the wrong answers for some trip durations
<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ (I've relied on MJ adv transfer planner for those)
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Are there any interesting orbits to put around Mars for missions?
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ like in a real-life sense?
<queqiao-_> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Maybe something that makes communication from the ground back to Earth better? The best I can think of for that would be a crepuscular sun synchronous orbit though
<queqiao-_> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Ballistic capture at Mars maybe?
<queqiao-_> ⟨V​lood⟩ would an areostationary(?) orbit be feasible?
<queqiao-_> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ 17'032 km, so yes
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Wouldn't that take a long time and more delta-V than aerocapture??
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I had a paper a while ago that calculated delta V saves for using ballistic capture to get to phobos and Deimos
<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ deimos is at what, 20Mm? wonder if it's big enough to make trouble for areostationary sats
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ For those, it makes since
<queqiao-_> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ You would probably never aerocapture IRL though, too risky
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ The time frame issue may be present though
<queqiao-_> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ IIRC the transfer time isn't that bad, and you have more launch opportunities than a normal transfer I think
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Not sure, it's mass is really really really small compared to what the moon is
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I doubt it has any affects, maybe long term
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I did not consider the launch opportunities; that makes since
<queqiao-_> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ (btw; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areostationary_orbit)
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ Hasn't someone done that in Principia yet?
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ If someone did, the answer about Deimos should be easy
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I don't think it would do much since it is so small
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ The statement about phobos and deimos causing a lot of instability reminds me of how little I know about N-body
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ When it says shift, does it mean longitude drift?
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Probably more oscillation in inclination like what the moon does
<queqiao-_> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ Time to test it out in Principia 😛
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Also the crazy terrain of Mars probably has a big effect
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Mars has crazy mountains and areas below sea level
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ I wonder if that or the moons has a bigger impact on inclination oscillation
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Terrain causes drifting I hypothesize
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ Not necessarily occilation
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ The paper cited on wikipedia seems to show the sun having more influence over inclination
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​aculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ longitude oscillation
<queqiao-_> ⟨Z​eusbeer⟩ I forgor thar the sun existed too 💀
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ I would expect extended body effects to be a nightmare for synchronous orbits
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ Mars is very lumpy
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ And these effects already dominate around the fairly round earth
<queqiao-_> ⟨v​on Kerman⟩ Are these predictions usable? I think it assumes circular coplanar orbits. It might work for Venus, but what about the more inclined or eccentric planets?
<queqiao-_> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Normal TWP does, but not the one in #ro-general
<queqiao-_> ⟨v​on Kerman⟩ No, i mean Kerbal alarm clock
<queqiao-_> ⟨S​tonesmile⟩ Oh, that might be the same as normal TWP?
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<queqiao-_> ⟨v​on Kerman⟩ Oh, I see now, it's not about using KAC transfer window predictions, KAC is used just to set alarms for TWP launch windows. Sorry.
<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ ? that wouldn't make sense, TWP can set its own much nicer alarms
<queqiao-_> ⟨v​on Kerman⟩ I just need to start using TWP 🙂
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #3225: Use new-style DiscreteTrajectory in Entwurf - https://git.io/JMQNi
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Build queued… - 
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Pending. Building… - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5299/
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Success. Build finished. - http://casanova.westeurope.cloudapp.azure.com:8080/job/Principia/5299/
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin closed pull request #3228: Pick up the Hamilton hotfix - https://git.io/JMb8z
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin pushed 4 commits to master [+0/-0/±7] https://git.io/JDvMp
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] eggrobin d0dfa4e - Merge pull request #3228 from mockingbirdnest/Hamilton Pick up the Hamilton hotfix
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy closed pull request #3225: Use new-style DiscreteTrajectory in Entwurf - https://git.io/JMQNi
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy pushed 32 commits to Entwurf [+2/-1/±186] https://git.io/JDvyt
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy e7dbb88 - Minor cleanups.
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy 11e64f4 - Clean up vessel.hpp.
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy 1e98dd7 - Management of the backstory.
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] ... and 29 more commits.