egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stocky⟩ Does mechjeb ascent guidance work with principia? It thinks that it cant reach my destination orbit of 160x160km but i can do it manually easy enough
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Yes
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sol⟩ Can anyone link me the best mechjeb version for principia? I think ckan installed it wrong
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ your Principia install seems oddly mangled, the version says Hamilton, but there are some strings there that predate the reference frame selector UI rework in Haar O_o
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ I hacked localization
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ because I'm accustomed with the old xCyA 🤷
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ because I'm accustomed with the old xCyA 🤷 (just to make it gaming-convenient) (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ because I'm accustomed with the old xCyA 🤷 (just to make it gaming-convenient for me) (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ that term is completely nonstandard, I made that up; if you keep using it instead of the one that actually gets used, you will confuse yourself and others
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ Oh, so in essay sense
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ essay?
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ and the plotting frame types decreased from 4 to 3 because barycentric is not useful?
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ (indeed that's seldom used for plotting)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ essence?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ yeah the barycentric frame was pointless; a rotating-pulsating frame could make some sense but it is a very weird reference frame (planets change size with time in the rotating-pulsating frame)
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ standard technology terms
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ I don’t get what you mean by « essay » here, what would be the corresponding Chinese word ?
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ 论文
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ (what is used in that, should be standard thingy)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ ah yes, as in 一颗在论文海中的蛋. That translates to *paper*.
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ fine
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ (in an academic context, at least)
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ ok
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ But by the way, there's an issue just found in that new principia
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ So 'technical term'?
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ the map view sometimes suddenly rotating fast for about 1 second
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ when you change reference frames?
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ no, all time in VCSA (V-S-Orbit)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ That's been a thing since like, forever ago...
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ and it's inconsistent
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ it appears frequently this morning, but didn't appear at all last evening (UTC+8)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ are you warping when it spins fast?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ and are you at lower altitudes?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ 99% sure what Kerbinator is talking about happens while switching between certain reference frames. I get the sense that the planetarium rotation decides to take the long way around.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Denwey⟩ That happens to me whenever I bring up the BTW menu
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ There are two things I can think of that would match that description:
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ 1. when you change reference frame, we change the horizontal, which can sometimes mean turning the camera upside-down in a confusing way;
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ 2. when you are too low, we incorrectly preserve the orientation of the camera, which means the camera spins around in the plotting frame (this will be fixed in the upcoming version).
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ no
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ Al2Me6 refers to 1., but 2. at high warp could have similarly confusing symptoms.
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ See the video (just over 8MB... so I had to cut it into 2 files)
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ I was at Venus 500km, VCSA(V-S-Orbit), and doing nothing (1x and 10x timewarp)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ And this would be #3, which I'm pretty sure is a bug... and a quite bizarre one. Map starts rotating like mad when your cursor is over certain UI elements, namely the BetterTimeWarp window (as noted above) and some KerbalKonstructs windows. And maybe Waypoint Manager too?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ oh yeah there is that. That I do not understand, but it is a thing.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ the logs won’t be relevant here.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ It looks like this is happening when you are hovering over a particular window, indeed.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ So this is what @Denwey reported.
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ Oh
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ I left BTW menu turned on
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ 🌚
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ To get back to that, yes, Jupiter-Sun-Orbit is a term used extensively in literature about the Juno mission, and the Earth-specific term Geocentric Solar Ecliptic, which follows the same pattern, is standard throughout astronomical literature. In contrast, the « aligned » thing was a figment of my deranged imagination, and exists nowhere outside of outdated versions of Principia.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ There are other terms, for instance JAXA uses the term Hill coordinate system for what I would call Ryugu-Sun-Orbit, but at least we remain within the realm of reasonable extrapolation. https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1071983219946475520
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ because for a newcomer for x-y-orbit you cannot just grammerly find which one is center and which one is aligned (rotating)
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ (gaming sense, pretending that he knows nothing about this)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ thankfully, there are words all over the screen that say that
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ and tooltips that tell you what to use it for
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<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ Tiny size Lyapunov orbit around Venus L2 achieved (there is a manoeurve of 1.7729599m/s, however Principia's nodes is hard to execute perfectly (I can make to 1E-6 precision just with MJ in stock nodes, though)
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<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ @DRVeyl, @von Kerman: does https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealSolarSystem/pull/253/files look reasonable? In particular, are the genders correct, and are there any bodies that should be animate (right now I have them all inanimate)?
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<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ The genders are correct. Not sure about the animacy, I didn't even know that such grammar feature exists 🙂 Apparently, they are inanimate.
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy opened pull request #3259: Fix a bug where ForgetAfter was creating orphaned 1-point segments - https://git.io/JygRt
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #3259: Fix a bug where ForgetAfter was creating orphaned 1-point segments - https://git.io/JygRt
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ I'm the Lagrange points dude again. I've asked how do people manage to reach any L points at all using principia in KSP, and very kind people provided me with videos and stuff (1 yt video) that appears to explain how to do it. The problem is that i'm stupid af, and i don't get it. The video is very very old and it's not very good. I find the lack of tutorials and documentationts
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ I'm the Lagrange points dude again. I've asked how do people manage to reach any L points at all using principia in KSP, and very kind people provided me with videos and stuff (1 yt video) that appears to explain how to do it. The problem is that i'm stupid af, and i don't get it. The video is very very old and it's not very good. I find the lack of tutorials and documentation about principia
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ Does anyone have a method to reach Earth moon lagrange points ? Any explanations will help. Thanks in advance for waisting your time with my stupid questions.
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<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ I can suggest a brute force way, go to LEO, perform plane change to the moon's plane, play with the maneuver planner until it places you in L1 🙂
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<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ I would start with stock, RSS is harder because of the plane change and the greater mass ratio which makes feeling for the influence of the moon a bit tricky.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ go to equatorial LKO, set the plotting frame to Mun-Kerbin-Orbit, and plan a manœuvre that puts you 60° ahead or behind the Mun.
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy opened pull request #3260: Merge was not processing the segments of the target after the end of the source - https://git.io/JygK3
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy closed pull request #3259: Fix a bug where ForgetAfter was creating orphaned 1-point segments - https://git.io/JygRt
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy pushed 3 commits to master [+0/-0/±4] https://git.io/JygK2
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy 9ba9fca - The TDD thing.
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy 86952be - ForgetAfter must include 1-point segments that are not in the time-to-segment map.
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy d74aa06 - Merge pull request #3259 from pleroy/ForgetAfter Fix a bug where ForgetAfter was creating orphaned 1-point segments
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #3260: Merge was not processing the segments of the target after the end of the source - https://git.io/JygK3
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ The thing is to learn to do it in RSS, the plane change is a problem i can work arround, but still, even if i launch from korou and get my orbit with less than 0.1 degrees of relative inclination to the moon, i still cant plot the trajectory good enough it seems, that's why i'm asking for help.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ Have you done it in stock already?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ it is not really feasible to describe qualitatively how the curvature of the trajectory should change; hitting that spot is easier in stock, so if you don’t have a good intuition of that, you will have a much easier time acquiring that intuition in stock.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ I see, so it's just a lot of trial and error ? Because i'm starting to get not frustrated, it's just a game, but..... Ok then, i'll keep trying and trying. Thanks !!!. But it would be nice if we could have some kind of tutorial, like the How to get to the mun tutorials on Github. Finding info about principia is almost mission impossible.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ But thank you a lot for having got the time to answer my questions.
<queqiao-_>
⟨von Kerman⟩ I suppose that the only way to do it otherwise (not trial and error) would be to perform impossibly complex mathematical calculations yourself...
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ it’s trial and error until you get experience, then things get faster
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ That's why they hire PHD's to do this irl
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ just as stock KSP is, if you have no idea how a Hohmann transfer works you are going to have to get an intuition of 2-body dynamics
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ there is nothing impossibly complex
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ if you just want to dial in numbers you can easily do that, aim a Hohman transfer at the right height and you’ll pretty much be there
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ but you won’t have made a single step towards acquiring an intuition of how trajectories behave
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ Ok then, i'll keep trying, till i get it, anyway, thank you a lot again.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ but start with stock, seriously
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ starting with RSS is an exercise in frustration, the moon is tiny
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ I'm a masochist i fear. I'll just try to go and find any tutorial i can find, and try it to in the stock system.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ I'm a masochist i fear. I'll just try to go and find any tutorial i can find, and try it too in the stock system. (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ There is no tutorial. You have been shown all the written and video material that exists.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ I can probably dig up a video that does much the same thing in Chinese, but I don’t think that will help much.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ But it's just a learning curve, just like moving from stock to RO- RSS, i'll get over it.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ At this point, i would even watch a video in chinesse, as long as the visual aids are usefull, there's still value in waching it.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ At this point, i would even watch a video in chinese, as long as the visual aids are usefull, there's still value in waching it. (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ I don’t think you’ll find anything that’s not in the ABRiN video already. The main problem with that one is that it predates celestial trajectories being shown in the plotting frame, so you have the orbit of the moon when it shouldn’t be there, but it’s showing everything there is to show.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ (also it’s using the barycentric frame KMB which is gone, just use the orbit frame MKO)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ Ok, if i ever find out how to do it, i would consider writing a short tutorial or sth, to start building a tutorials base for new players.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ Thanks for the advice !!
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<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ But i was already using MEO plotting frame, that i got figured out, after half an hour of not understanding a thing,
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ Thank you very much.
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<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ which one
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<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ I didn't know well about these two uploaders
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ but honestly saying, I don't think Principia's uses is just limited to exploring L points
<queqiao-_>
⟨!Kerbinator (UTC+8)!⟩ are there binary systems currently supporting principia?
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<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy commented on pull request #3260: Merge was not processing the segments of the target after the end of the source - https://git.io/Jy2fN
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy closed pull request #3260: Merge was not processing the segments of the target after the end of the source - https://git.io/JygK3
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy pushed 3 commits to master [+0/-0/±4] https://git.io/Jy2t9
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy 4cd6a53 - The TDD thing.
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy 7adfc45 - Rebuild the time-to-segment map after the end of the source.
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy 20d591f - Merge pull request #3260 from pleroy/Merge Merge was not processing the segments of the target after the end of the source
<queqiao-_>
⟨DRVeyl⟩ ~~inanimate always declines as masculine, so I suppose the distinction doesn't entirely matter.~~ (Nope, I just remember badly.) (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨DRVeyl⟩ ~~inanimate always declines as masculine, so I suppose the distinction doesn't entirely matter.~~ (Mostly, and I just remember badly.) (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Damien⟩ @Slagman1982 I found setting a practice install with RSS & SMURFF (so you can use stock parts) helped massively for practicing principia in RSS. Everything else is just reading and learning. If you can get to a the L points in stock you can do it in RSS. Its exactly the same method bar inclination differences etc
<queqiao-_>
⟨Damien⟩ @Slagman1982 I found setting up a practice install with RSS & SMURFF (so you can use stock parts) helped massively for practicing principia in RSS. Everything else is just reading and learning. If you can get to a the L points in stock you can do it in RSS. Its exactly the same method bar inclination differences etc (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Damien⟩ If you're having trouble 'hitting' the points, you're probably coming in with too much velocity. You want to just about reach it so your trajectory gets bent easier by it and you can see the effects
<queqiao-_>
⟨Damien⟩ The Abrin tutorials helped me the most when I was learninv
<queqiao-_>
⟨Damien⟩ The Abrin tutorials helped me the most when I was learning (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ **Windows-only** test build with the fix to #2400.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ This is save-compatible with Hamilton, but it will *not* make your old saves smaller.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ However, newly computed trajectories should be a great deal more compact: old things are not stored in between engine firings, and are recomputed instead.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ Please test extensively with many different mission profiles (from fancy interplanetary probes to LEO rendez-vous and anything else you can think of), and report any issues you encounter.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Butcher⟩ I'm away atm, will test on my return.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ **Important warning**: this fix will not be in the upcoming release on the 2nd of January (Hardy), as we want it to be tested extensively for a while. Saves made with test3262 will *not* be compatible with Hardy. They should be compatible with हरीश चंद्र in February, unless some major unexpected bug throws a wrench into that.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ @von Kerman you might want to test-drive that test save, as it has the Russian localization (though bear in mind that warning about compatibility).
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ @von Kerman you might want to test-drive that test build, as it has the Russian localization (though bear in mind that warning about compatibility). (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ **Windows-only** test build with the fix to #2400.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ This is save-compatible with Hamilton, but it will *not* make your old saves smaller.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ However, newly computed trajectories should be a great deal more compact: old things are not stored in between engine firings, and are recomputed instead.
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ Please test extensively with many different mission profiles (from fancy interplanetary probes to LEO rendez-vous and anything else you can think of), and report any issues you encounter.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Slagman1982⟩ Than you a lot for your suggestions and advice, i'll try setting up a practice install as you said. Every piece of advice helps !!! Thanks.