egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
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<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ how do I use the "Hack gravity" feature to clean up craft history? I can't find it in game
<queqiao-_>
⟨Rad⟩ Are you asking how to reach the menu where you can hack gravity?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ yes
<queqiao-_>
⟨Rad⟩ Ctrl+Alt+F12
<queqiao-_>
⟨Rad⟩ Then it’s under cheats
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ cheers!
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<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ Does principia maintain history for untracked debris? Any way to clean that up? I've been trying to investigate why my save games are still 400 MB after clearing histories for all tracked craft, and found this:
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ `principia::ksp_plugin::internal_plugin::Plugin::vessels_` contains 73 vessels and I only have around 15 tracked ones
<queqiao-_>
⟨cola98765⟩ Afaik it does track them, making saves heavy, so you jeed to go to tracking station, click on debris icon, and delete all of them
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ OMG I had no idea tracking station tracked debris
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ I have crafts with 2000+ days of history in there in LEO x.x
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ well at least I know why my save files were insanely large. Thanks!
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ 408 MB -> 8.82 MB. My loading screens are comparatively instant now. Woohoo!
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<queqiao-_>
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Maybe principia could have some kind of warning if there's more than 10 debris in orbit
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ Or work on the issue - which they are doing
<queqiao-_>
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ It would still help general performance having less debris
<queqiao-_>
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ (wrath of egg incoming oh no)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ I think there are mods that allow you to select multiple vessels and delete them in the tracking station
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ I think adding "Check your debris in tracking station" to a FAQ somewhere would be very useful until there's and automated solution
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ I think adding "Check your debris in tracking station" to a FAQ somewhere would be very useful until there's an automated solution (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Don't think there will ever be an automated solution to it
<queqiao-_>
⟨vevladdd⟩ There is
<queqiao-_>
⟨vevladdd⟩ You can set the game to delete debris automatically
<queqiao-_>
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Oh cool, I did not know that!
<queqiao-_>
⟨vevladdd⟩ Or leave some amount of them
<queqiao-_>
⟨vevladdd⟩ Check the settings from the start menu
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ well, that works as long as you know about it and it's not straightforward to discover.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ I don't know why you say there will never be an automated solution: there are many things they can do (and AFAIK they're working on them).
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[Principia] eggrobin labeled pull request #3225: Use new-style DiscreteTrajectory in Entwurf - https://git.io/JMQNi
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<queqiao-_>
⟨Amselfass⟩ What I have done is:
<queqiao-_>
⟨Amselfass⟩ 1) In KSP settings, set the "Max persistent debris" slider to zero.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Amselfass⟩ 2) On each set of avionics except the final payload, set "Set to debris" to "On stage".
<queqiao-_>
⟨Amselfass⟩ This way, KSP will clean up behind you automatically.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Kobymaru⟩ Is this from a debugger or is there a tool that can open the Principia data in a save file?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Kobymaru⟩ Wow, that's impressive. Is that just from deleting Debris or did you clear vessel trajectories as well?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ The save file contains all data
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ It's readable with a text editor, however it's encoded and compressed to take up less space so it's just random characters
<queqiao-_>
⟨Kobymaru⟩ I'm aware of that, thanks. It's googles protobuf if I'm not mistaken. However, Sunius above posted a screenshot of the data, and I'm wondering if that's from a protobuf viewer or something. But looking closer at it, this does look suspiciously like the Visual Studio debugger.
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ Yeah, that looks like the VS debugger
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[Principia] kbsj opened issue #3226: Cannot get the reference frame selector window - https://git.io/JMFnb
<queqiao-_>
⟨Denwey⟩ So, suppose I remove principia, what would happen to the planetary orbits? Would they return to their original rss rail parameters or remain in their last configuration?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ Return to the stock positions
<queqiao-_>
⟨Denwey⟩ Well I guess I either remove it or setup tons of comsats in a stable LEO
<queqiao-_>
⟨Denwey⟩ GEO would require too much stationkeeping
<queqiao-_>
⟨Quadrupole⟩ That's just 50 m/s ler year, should be pretty managable for station keeping twice per year?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Quadrupole⟩ That's just 50 m/s per year, should be pretty managable for station keeping twice per year? (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ There are things between GEO and LEO, too...
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Hm perhaps I should make a toolbar button that just toggles hack gravity…
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ Noooooo
<queqiao-_>
⟨Denwey⟩ What's that?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ It's a hack, an escape hatch, for various debugging/cheating, and it's meant to be no more than that; is use in 2400 is already incidental—and that should hopefully go away soonish
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Alright then I won’t 😛
<queqiao-_>
⟨Denwey⟩ Why go inbetween when you can just go LEO tho?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ Because you need more satellites
<queqiao-_>
⟨Denwey⟩ Oh right
<queqiao-_>
⟨Denwey⟩ LOS
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ Things RSS/RO doesn't reach: constellation design
<queqiao-_>
⟨Denwey⟩ Needing only 3 sats
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ (Please forgive the abomination of using c for ς lol)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Denwey⟩ But how would I go about keeping the period constant in those orbits without stationkeeping tho?
<queqiao-_>
⟨Stonesmile⟩ Go back to it once every so often and do corrections
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ Orbits that are not recurrent on one day are far less perturbed
<queqiao-_>
⟨Kobymaru⟩ oh no, please keep the hack, it's really useful for figuring out whether stock or principia is eating vessels!
<queqiao-_>
⟨lpg⟩ he's talkig about 2400 going away, not the hacl
<queqiao-_>
⟨lpg⟩ he's talkig about 2400 going away, not the hack (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨lpg⟩ he's talking about 2400 going away, not the hack (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ iirc, Stratzenblitz had made a video on this
<queqiao-_>
⟨Al2Me6⟩ Nah that's not quite the kind of constellation design egg's talking about
<queqiao-_>
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ oh, my bad then
<queqiao-_>
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ sorry
<queqiao-_>
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ you mean like in a cluster, sort of like Starlink or something? or something different/
<queqiao-_>
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ you mean like in a cluster, sort of like Starlink or something? or something different? (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ I mean a different question, not a different answer
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ I mean that KSP does not teach you *why* you pick an orbit over another
<queqiao-_>
⟨Soviet Onion⟩ ah okay, got it
<queqiao-_>
⟨Amselfass⟩ This statement intrigues me, but I don't quite understand. What do you mean with "far less perturbed"? If I have a 4-satellite commsat constellation somewhere between LEO and GEO, should I avoid orbital periods of 1 h, 2 h, 4 h, 6 h, 12 h, 24 h to minimize the annoyance of perturbations? Or am I reading too much into your sentence?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ nope, this is exactly what I mean
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ GPS orbits are far more perturbed than ГЛОНАСС, Galileo, or 北斗 orbits for that reason
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ a 北斗 MEO satellite goes back over its ground track only after 7 days, Galileo 10 days, ГЛОНАСС 8 days
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin labeled issue #3226: Cannot get the reference frame selector window - https://git.io/JMFnb
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin assigned issue #3226: Cannot get the reference frame selector window - https://git.io/JMFnb
<queqiao-_>
⟨Amselfass⟩ Hmm, very interesting. Sorry for the follow up, but do I then want to be as far away as possible from integer fractions of a day (which I guess would mean 18 h is the best)? Or do I want to maximize `n`, when my orbital period is an integer fraction of `n` days? Or is this all too simplistic?
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ notionally you want to maximize what you call `n`, which we will henceforth call Cᴛₒ to avoid confusion, but really it’s about the number of revolutions over the number of days of the cycle, Nᴛₒ / Cᴛₒ, and you want that to not be close to a fraction with a small denominator
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ if do 4999 revolutions over a cycle of 10000 days, you will get much the same perturbations as in a semisynchronous orbit, even though Cᴛₒ is very large
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ (they will average out over a cycle in theory, but by then you will likely have been perturbed into the boonies)
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ in practice, if you go for an MEO whose ground track cycles over a week or two, you should be fine as far as perturbations from the geopotential are concerned
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ obviously the Moon exists, which is a problem
<queqiao-_>
⟨egg⟩ but it is more of a problem in GEO
<queqiao-_>
⟨Amselfass⟩ Thank you. This is all very fascinating, I guess I will finally use the orbit analyser for something other than apoapsis and periapsis.
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy synchronize pull request #3225: Use new-style DiscreteTrajectory in Entwurf - https://git.io/JMQNi
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[Principia] eggrobin created branch Hamilton https://git.io/JMPxl
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[Principia] eggrobin created branch Hamilton - https://git.io/fpDwq
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin opened pull request #3227: Mirror the overloads of Localizer.Format in LRUCache.Get and L10n.CacheFormat - https://git.io/JMF5t
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin edited pull request #3227: Mirror the overloads of Localizer.Format in LRUCache.Get and L10n.CacheFormat - https://git.io/JMF5t
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] eggrobin synchronize pull request #3227: Mirror the overloads of Localizer.Format in LRUCache.Get and L10n.CacheFormat - https://git.io/JMF5t
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ In other cat news, mine are finally used to the time change
<raptop>
How well do your cats handle leapseconds?
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[Principia] pleroy closed pull request #3227: Mirror the overloads of Localizer.Format in LRUCache.Get and L10n.CacheFormat - https://git.io/JMF5t
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[Principia] pleroy pushed 3 commits to Hamilton [+0/-0/±5] https://git.io/JMFby
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[Principia] eggrobin 782dd0d - Mirror the overloads of Localizer.Format in LRUCache.Get and L10n.CacheFormat.
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[Principia] eggrobin 5a28609 - order
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[Principia] pleroy d0f59ca - Merge pull request #3227 from eggrobin/3226 Mirror the overloads of Localizer.Format in LRUCache.Get and L10n.CacheFormat
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[Principia] pleroy deleted tag 2021120408-Hamilton - https://git.io/fpDwq
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[Principia] pleroy deleted tag 2021120408-Hamilton
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ No issues
<queqiao-_>
⟨Paculino (ŝi/ri/she/they)⟩ They are only sensitive and stubborn enough to be bothered by the time change from DST for about a month
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy labeled pull request #3227: Mirror the overloads of Localizer.Format in LRUCache.Get and L10n.CacheFormat - https://git.io/JMF5t
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy tagged d0f59ca as 2021120408-Hamilton https://git.io/JMFAs
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[Principia] pleroy created tag 2021120408-Hamilton - https://git.io/fpDwq
<_whitenotifier>
[Principia] pleroy commented on issue #3226: Cannot get the reference frame selector window - https://git.io/JMFpR
<queqiao-_>
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Our cat grew by like 2kg since I last shared her
<queqiao-_>
⟨Zeusbeer⟩ Actual hyper grower
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<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ I wrote some code to parse ksp save file. Then found most of the space is taken by principia and that data is base64 encoded and compressed. I then built principia.dll, loaded it in my program and made it load that data (outside of KSP)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ I wrote some code to parse ksp save file. Then found most of the space is taken by principia and that data is base64 encoded and compressed. I then built principia.dll, loaded it in my program and made it load that data (outside of KSP). And yes the screenshot is from a debugger (edited)
<queqiao-_>
⟨Sunius⟩ I first cleared vessel trajectories. The save file went from 480 MB to 418 MB. So I went digging wtf is taking the space. Clearing debris brought it to 8.82 MB