UmbralRaptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Fuchs. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, 1.7.x, 1.8.1, and 1.9.1. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly… | <egg> also 4e16 m * 2^-52 is uncomfortably large
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<discord->
Conventia. — The sun-sync thing is something that would've helped me a few days ago (or yesterday and maybe tomorrow, even).
<discord->
Conventia. — Though, I never even tried looking at the orbit analyzer because I didn't think about it.
<discord->
Conventia. — I also didn't look at it for orbital period when I did my comsat constellation. I imagine it would've helped with them being more stable.
<discord->
Conventia. — Though, my more general suggestion is that if you want to spend a few months on implementing something interesting and useful, you should spend some time figuring out user stories for various potential things you find interesting and determining the intersection.
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<discord->
Conventia. — Apparently doing a polar venus transfer makes things much easier combined with hacking gravity and moving things around different LAN's.
* raptop
still wants to know if hacking gravity reduces its p-value below 0.05
* discord-
Conventia. — doesn't know what a p-value is._
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<discord->
Conventia. — That's good enough for the contract just from the first burn.
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<discord->
egg. — > if you want to spend a few months on implementing something interesting and useful, you should spend some time figuring out user stories for various potential things you find interesting and determining the intersection.
<discord->
egg. — You must be new here
<discord->
Adouge. — @egg is principia purely a Produkt of mathematicians having fun, or do you also pursue some academic goal?
<discord->
egg. — the former
<discord->
Conventia. — Note, I never said you wanted that, I only said that if you want it, you can try to get it that way. 😛
<discord->
egg. — oh I definitely want to work for a while on random interesting thing, this is the only thing that keeps us interested in this project
<discord->
egg. — otoh, doing UX research is definitely not something I want to spend time on
<discord->
egg. — oh I definitely want to work for a while on a random interesting thing, this is the only thing that keeps us interested in this project (edited)
<discord->
egg. — @Conventia also, re. the gravity hacking/p-value comment, look up "p-hacking"
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<discord->
Conventia. — And the orbital analysis only does 2 digits for nodal precession. Which isn't enough to determine .985 😛
<discord->
egg. — eh, .98 should be close enough
<discord->
egg. — you will drift by a third of a degree every year, that still gives you some margin
<discord->
egg. — @Conventia there is nothing magical about the 3 digits in 0.985; I could just as well have given you a value of 0.99 or 0.9856
<discord->
egg. — even with 2 digits you have something far more accurate than what you could eyeball
<discord->
Conventia. — Sure, I just used the values on wikipedia.
<discord->
egg. — this is literally just 360 degrees / 365.25 days
<discord->
egg. — what values on Wikipedia
<discord->
Conventia. — I.e. the orbital values.
<discord->
egg. — that is very restrictive though
<discord->
egg. — they just give you a handful of examples
<discord->
Conventia. — Sure, though, I've only needed to use one of them so far.
<discord->
egg. — and it is likely not quite as accurate as looking at the actual thing you are trying to get, which is a specific nodal precession
<discord->
egg. — (because you have 57 different ways of interpreting those elements)
<discord->
Conventia. — The bigger issue is honestly, kerbalism simulating power but not station keeping.
<discord->
egg. — what orbit are you on
<discord->
egg. — on a sun-synch orbit you should not need much stationkeeping at all
<discord->
Conventia. — 282km at 96.6
<discord->
Conventia. — I mean, solar panels pointing at the sun.
<discord->
egg. — yeah that should not require any stationkeeping to stay sun-synchronous with what we simulate
<discord->
egg. — ah, you mean attitude-keeping?
<discord->
Conventia. — Sure. 😛
<discord->
Damien. — @Conventia crafts on rails have the same orientation relative to the sun as when they were last loaded
<discord->
egg. — also that
<discord->
egg. — Kerbalism pretends that things are attitude-kept
<discord->
Conventia. — Hmm...
<discord->
Conventia. — Then I don't quite understand why I'm having issues other than time of year issues with the orbit.
<discord->
Damien. — does your craft generate more power than it uses with all modules active in the kerbalism planner?
<discord->
Damien. — and do you have enough of a margin to have panels deteriorate
<discord->
Conventia. — I'm new at this, so perhaps there isn't enough margin.
<discord->
Damien. — I think if you're using realantennas, then you have to use a feature on the RA gui to take into account antenna active power use, otherwise it only uses idle power use in thhe kerbalism planner
<discord->
egg. — bear in mind that a crepuscular orbit will still have some eclipse near the solstices
<kmath>
<eggleroy> Michel Capderou (2012), Satellites : de Kepler au GPS. https://t.co/vAqW1Adq8Z
<discord->
Conventia. — kerbalism claims now that there is perpetual power in the sun but I guess since it's summer, the southern portion of the orbit is in shadow and the panels are bad enough that the margin doesn't work out.
<discord->
Damien. — maybe
<discord->
Damien. — what's the satellite for?
<discord->
Conventia. — film2
<discord->
Conventia. — It just has to last until the camera dies. 😛
<discord->
Damien. — yeah it's weird that you'd be running out of power during an experiment that short, and that doesn't need to be transmitted
<discord->
Damien. — design issue imo
<discord->
Conventia. — Granted, the reentry is toasty cause I'm using the sample container which seems to be single use (only film1 works, really)
<discord->
Conventia. — I have a 2m by 2m solar panel.
<discord->
Conventia. — I think it's the sample return, since it doesn't have deep space avionics.
<discord->
Conventia. — I don't know how to build custom sample return things, so I just used it.
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<discord->
Idiottsandwich. — Is there a maneuver planner of principia?
<discord->
Idiottsandwich. — Like mechjeb does for stock
<discord->
Damien. — you mean something that will automagically do it all for you?
<discord->
Damien. — no
<discord->
Damien. — MJ is in the process of being updated to support principia with its automagical trickery but it's a long process
<discord->
Idiottsandwich. — Hmmm understandble
<discord->
Idiottsandwich. — Principia is hard tho :0
<discord->
Idiottsandwich. — :p
<discord->
Stonesmile. — You can use the regular MJ planner to get an esimate of what you have to manually enter in the flight planner, with varying results
<discord->
egg. — To quote the PVG guide,
<discord->
egg. — > This also explains why RSS is so cheaty and teaches you all the wrong things, because doing it right is difficult. You installed Principia though and decided you wanted to play in nightmare mode.
<discord->
Damien. — 🦾 🥚
<discord->
egg. — mechanical arm egg?
<discord->
Damien. — principia is tough
<discord->
Damien. — hey I'm working with limited emojis here
<discord->
Conventia. — Principia, built egg tough!
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] eggrobin pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] https://git.io/JfSBF
<_whitenotifier-d13c>
[Principia] eggrobin e074dc4 - rebuild_all_solutions downloads most things now.
<discord->
Idiottsandwich. — Do optimal windows for ex going to mars line up with the real ones?
<discord->
Stonesmile. — To my knowledge, yes
<discord->
egg. — The solar system is the real one, with its real motion
<discord->
egg. — so if it works in real life and doesn't depend on the tiny things we don't model (solar wind, drag, relativistic effects, etc.) it should work
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<discord->
Stonesmile. — Is J2 on your or RSS's side?
<discord->
egg. — Principia does extended-body gravity, stock does not
<discord->
egg. — not sure what the question is here
<discord->
Stonesmile. — Which mod has the J2 parameter modelled, you or RSS, meaning do you add them or just use them?
<discord->
egg. — we have a whole custom initial state for RSS
<discord->
egg. — we completely ignore any orbits configured in RSS
<discord->
egg. — as for J2 in stock RSS, what would it do?
<discord->
egg. — there is no modelling of extended-body gravity without Principia
<discord->
Damien. — "how does a lightswitch work?"
<discord->
Damien. — "well first there was a big bang" (edited)
<discord->
egg. — @Damien nah that is unnecessary context. I would start with Maxwell's equations probably
<discord->
Standecco. — it's "the" big bang, not a big bang, unless you assume multiple universes to exist and to have formed independently from each otehr
<discord->
Standecco. — it's "the" big bang, not a big bang, unless you assume multiple universes to exist and to have formed independently from each ohther (edited)
<discord->
Standecco. — it's "the" big bang, not a big bang, unless you assume multiple universes to exist and to have formed independently from each other (edited)
<discord->
lpg. — surely you should start by asking what kind of lightswitch, and what you mean by "work"
<discord->
egg. — or your light switch arcs and makes a "bang"
<discord->
lpg. — surely you should start by asking what kind of lightswitch, and what is meant by "work" (edited)
<discord->
Standecco. — a related discussion on the etymology of "lightswitch" would probably start too
<raptop>
If I need to read through a copy of Jackson to operate a lightswitch, I'm going to get stabby
<discord->
Standecco. — are you _really_ lighting a switch if you don't know the wave function of every single electron in the electrical grid?
<discord->
Damien. — eleggtrical grid you mean
<discord->
egg. — @Standecco and of the relevant word in other languages
<discord->
egg. — *interrupteur*
<discord->
Standecco. — @egg it's just "switch" in italian
<discord->
Standecco. — and in french too I see
<discord->
egg. — well, yes, but *interrupteur*/*interruttore* tell you a lot more about the mechanism
<discord->
egg. — they interrupt the circuit
<discord->
Standecco. — fun fact: we often colloquially use "chiudi la luce" ( literally "close the light") to actually mean "spegni la luce" (=turn off the light)
<discord->
Damien. — someone please rename this channel to #conversationaltangents
<discord->
Standecco. — which is also the opposite of what actually happens in the circuit
<discord->
DRVeyl. — (Which is funny, since "closing" circuits is generally what lets current flow / lights illuminate)
<discord->
DRVeyl. — Bah, ninja'd.
<discord->
Standecco. — eheh
<discord->
Standecco. — that's why I classified it as a fun fact
<discord->
Standecco. — @Damien just rename it to #egg
<discord->
Damien. — yeah that's more succinct
<discord->
Standecco. — fun fact: we often colloquially use "chiudi la luce" (literally "close the light") to actually mean "spegni la luce" (= "turn off the light") (edited)
<discord->
egg. — so it looks like switch is cognate to twig
<discord->
Standecco. — as in wood stick?
<discord->
Standecco. — (what if twig was short for tree-wig)
<discord->
lpg. — as in a thing you can whip people with
<discord->
Standecco. — of course, both these acts perfectly relate to switch
<discord->
Standecco. — much more interesting would be knowing _when_ switch started to be used
<raptop>
Oh, so coercivity is how much you're willing to apply corporal punishment to the electrons?
<discord->
Standecco. — much more interesting would be knowing _when_ "switch" started to be used (edited)
<discord->
Standecco. — did it pop into existence when electrical systems were starting to be a thing or did it exist even before that?
<discord->
egg. — looks like it is old in the whip sense
<discord->
egg. — not sure how it became what it now is
<discord->
Standecco. — my guess is it started to be used in rail switches with the modern meaning
<discord->
egg. — maybe via railway switch? (completely conjecturing here)
<discord->
Damien. — switch in electricity could be related to switch in railways
<discord->
Damien. — yeah
<discord->
Standecco. — (double ninja'd)
<discord->
Damien. — ```switch (v.)
<discord->
Damien. —
<discord->
Damien. — 1610s, "to strike with a switch," from switch (n.). Related: Switched; switching. The meaning "turn (off or on) with a switch device" is first recorded 1853 of trains on tracks, 1881 of electricity, 1932 of radio or (later) television. Sense of "shift, divert" is from 1860. Meaning "to change one thing for another" is recorded from 1919.```
<discord->
egg. — So does "switch" then refer to the needle of the railway switch?
<discord->
egg. — (the *aiguille* in the french *aiguillage*)
<discord->
Damien. — if you mean the moving part of the rail they're called blades, here in the UK anyway
<discord->
Standecco. — so it started as a Onomatopoeia from the "swoosh" sound that slashing a twig makes=
<discord->
Damien. — I work with them a lot
<discord->
Standecco. — so it started as a onomatopoeia from the "swoosh" sound that slashing a twig makes? (edited)
<discord->
egg. — @Damien yeah in french they are needles, or technically (moving) needle-blades and (fixed) counter-needles https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiguillage
<discord->
egg. — (and that article mentions more terminology stemming from that, *aiguiller* (*needling :-p) for switching a train onto a track)
<discord->
Standecco. — so like inserting the needle (aka the train) into the hole (the right track)
<discord->
Damien. — or relating to the thin metal part of the switch
<discord->
Damien. — always good times when someone breaks those
<discord->
Standecco. — oh, that looks a lot like a needle
<discord->
Damien. — sending a train through a set of points set against them is common and hilarious if you're not involved
<discord->
Standecco. — makes sense
<discord->
egg. — (but that image is canadian)
<discord->
egg. — it seems that in FR the terminology is consistently that the needle is the whole thing, and the blades are the blades of the needle
<discord->
Damien. — my company had gotten a lot of work purely to manage worksites to prevent points being split and moving trains and machines to where they need to be
<discord->
Damien. — it's not hard work, you just have to be diligent
<discord->
Standecco. — in italian it looks like "scambio" (the term colloquially used) o "deviatoio" is the whole thing and that "ago" is the thing that looks like an ago (= needle)
<discord->
Standecco. — hadn't seen technical italian in a while
<discord->
Standecco. — always fun to look at these wonky translations
<discord->
egg. — right so the same inspiration as the fr terminology with subtle variations in the technical specifics
<discord->
egg. — I see you have *cuore* too
<discord->
egg. — same as in fr
<discord->
Damien. — the railway here is hilariously antiquated though in its systems. everything is measures in miles and chains, and mileages go up to london and down to scotland, because Victorians didn't like going down to the capital
<discord->
Damien. — the railway here is hilariously antiquated though in its systems. everything is measured in miles and chains, and mileages go up to london and down to scotland, because Victorians didn't like going down to the capital (edited)
<discord->
Standecco. — #railroad-feedback
<discord->
Damien. — ^
<discord->
Standecco. — ok then I'm back to entropy
<discord->
Damien. — *who made the J2 config?*
<discord->
Damien. — ...
<discord->
Damien. — *railways am I right?*
<discord->
egg. — @Stonesmile also, to answer your question, Earth's J2 is configured here
* raptop
definitely doesn't understand rail. eg: why are there at least 3 major heavy rail systems in this country that don't use standard gauge? Why is it impractical to run intercity trains as frequeny as small jets? etc etc
<raptop>
Why are trains incapable of going faster than cars were decades ago?
<discord->
egg. — I think you mean US rail here rather than rail in general
<discord->
Damien. — if it's about the US, probably same reason crossing the road is illegal and public transport is decimated by cuts
<discord->
Damien. — *lobbying*
<raptop>
egg|cell|egg: well, that time I took rail between Zurich and Grindelwald it was 4 hours, and the people who drove did so in 3.5
<discord->
Myshiko. — @raptor railroad system (especially in US and majority Russia) is very old, and changing very slowly. Trains can be much faster then cars, but this requires extensive improvements on the rail tracks, and that’s a big problem.
<discord->
Myshiko. — In modern Russia they managed to modernise Moscow-St Petersburg rails, so Sapsan trains are significantly faster then cars.
<discord->
Myshiko. — US invested in airplanes instead.
<discord->
egg. — raptop: yeah CH has a different approach which focuses on density more than speed
<discord->
Myshiko. — @raptop railroad system (especially in US and majority Russia) is very old, and changing very slowly. Trains can be much faster then cars, but this requires extensive improvements on the rail tracks, and that’s a big problem. (edited)
<discord->
egg. — i.e. there is a train that goes to Grindelwald to start with, but there is no high-speed rail
<discord->
Myshiko. — @Damien the key to progress is timely unconditional surrender, Japan teaches us. UK was never defeated, so some room for improvements remain.
<discord->
Damien. — *the sun never sets*
<discord->
egg. — raptop: that eggsoplanet conference was very much in the boonies
<raptop>
Gotta find somewhere with low noise backgrounds
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<discord->
egg. — Does someone remember the parameters of the macollo square orbit?
<discord->
egg. — Does someone remember the parameters of the maccollo square orbit? (edited)
<discord->
Damien. — I may have an old save somewhere with one if you need it.
<discord->
Damien. — Probably on RSS though
<discord->
egg. — I have something close enough
<discord->
egg. — looks like the analyser is happy to see it either as a mun or kerbin orbit
<discord->
egg. — the analyser will also see, e.g., LEO as a solar orbit
<discord->
egg. — (because you don't escape, so you can consider it as a very perturbed solar orbit)
<discord->
egg. — I guess I should consider the orbit with the shortest period
<discord->
egg. — so that makes the maccollo square orbit a lunar orbit
<discord->
egg. — albeit a square one
<discord->
egg. — yeah it is a distant retrograde orbit I think
<discord->
Stonesmile. — Is it going to be difficult to change the detection of SOI after it's implemented? If not, then let us find edge cases after release
<discord->
Damien. — oh no he said the bad thing
<discord->
Stonesmile. — shhh... don't tell egg
<discord->
egg. — amusingly the maccollo orbit is not even in the hill sphere of the Mun
<discord->
egg. — let alone in its SoI
<raptop>
O_o O_O o_O
<discord->
egg. — it is a distant retrograde orbit