UmbralRaptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Fuchs. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, 1.7.x, 1.8.1, and 1.9.1. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly… | <egg> also 4e16 m * 2^-52 is uncomfortably large
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<discord-> P​lasticGuy. — would uninstalling principia from a save cause any problems if i have no flights going on at the time?
<discord-> e​gg. — you would cease to have Principia
<discord-> e​gg. — other than that, I guess it should be fine? make a copy of your save and try it out?
<discord-> P​lasticGuy. — or, is there a way to make high timewarp work with principia and a flight going on
<discord-> e​gg. — depends on two things: your definition of "high", and your computer
<discord-> e​gg. — (or your definition of "work" I suppose)
<discord-> P​lasticGuy. — when i timewarp for a couple of ingame months (for rocket buildings or science etc) i get like 5 fps
<discord-> P​lasticGuy. — i heard it was caused by lack of cpu? power, but i cant really change my computer
<discord-> D​amien. — don't use the max timewarp with principia. it's faster to have it a few steps below
<discord-> D​amien. — in my experience anyway
<discord-> D​amien. — the extra TW isn't worth the lag
<discord-> D​amien. — unfortunately you're asking your PC to do calculations NASA uses supercomputers for
<discord-> D​amien. — it's never going to be instant
<discord-> P​lasticGuy. — i might just put up with the slow timewarp so i get the good principia features
<discord-> P​lasticGuy. — yeah, my computer is a couple of years old too
<discord-> K​erbinator. — indeed problematic 😦
<discord-> K​erbinator. — if the vessels can be on-rail-of a "flight plan" at the start of warp as pre-calculations
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<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — does deinstalling principia brake the game?
<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — or will everything be back on standard patched-conics orbits?
<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — and does principia work with real solar system extended?
<discord-> D​amien. — no, yes, no
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<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — Thank you, thank you, thank you
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — @Idiottsandwich read what egg wrote a few lines up, the position of vessels gets borked
<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — Ok i see, thanks!
<discord-> e​gg. — it works with additional bodies if someone did the work to configure them
<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — Ok i see
<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — Not sure if they did
<discord-> e​gg. — I know that some people do the work sometimes, because some of Reach’s videos have extra bodies
<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — What about performance tho
<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — Its a lot of bodies
<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — Like a ton
<discord-> e​gg. — how would I know
<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — I dont know
<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — Does principia suffer with lots of vessels?
<discord-> e​gg. — vessels and celestials work completely differently
<discord-> e​gg. — @Standecco seems to have asked about Principia support with that RSS expansion so might be able to answer your questions
<discord-> K​erbinator. — @egg will principia be able to handle REX (for example, fusion the mass of sun and solar system body into a single mass with appropriate j2 when getting too far) That will greatly reduce the calculations of gravity pairs
<discord-> e​gg. — no
<discord-> e​gg. — stop asking about interstellar travel
<discord-> e​gg. — there is no interstellar travel with Principia
<discord-> S​tandecco. — yeah it's easy just make the entire solar system a single blob
<discord-> e​gg. — and please, please, unless you are a specialist in numerical computation of ephemerides, don’t suggest technical solutions to numerical computation of ephemerides
<discord-> m​oar ssto. — Patched mutibody system simply?
<discord-> m​oar ssto. — Patched mutibody systems simply? (edited)
<discord-> S​tandecco. — principia works by toggling `egg = True` in a hidden KSP cfg
<discord-> S​tandecco. — egg could also add `integgstellar = True` to make everything work but he's too busy making it sound like he's actually "developing" things for his "mod"
<discord-> e​gg. — @Kerbinator re. interstellar travel, read https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/1737#issuecomment-369985618
<discord-> S​tandecco. — about Real Expansion or whatever it's called now, they have a principia patch but it just sets the inclination of the planets straight
<discord-> e​gg. — ... what
<discord-> e​gg. — this is idiotic
<discord-> S​tandecco. — I think it "fixes" the entire system being tilted to have Earth equatorial tilt without principia
<discord-> e​gg. — OK but with Principia that is all irrelevant and ignored
<discord-> e​gg. — since we have our own initial state etc.
<discord-> S​tandecco. — ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<discord-> e​gg. — do they overwrite that???
<discord-> S​tandecco. — it patches kopernicus only too
<discord-> e​gg. — ah it doesn’t patch the Principia config ?
<discord-> e​gg. — so then it will just crash on load, won’t it
<discord-> S​tandecco. — I guess it will just be like all any other non officially supported pack
<discord-> e​gg. — this is slightly different though, because if you have RSS Principia’s own config for RSS config applies
<discord-> e​gg. — which means that unless you extend that, it is an error to extend RSS
<discord-> S​tandecco. — so Principia doesn't support both a dedicated cfg and conversion from Kopernicus configs?
<discord-> S​tandecco. — so Principia doesn't support both a dedicated cfg and conversion from Kopernicus configs at the same time? (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — nope
<discord-> e​gg. — not if the initial state is cartesian
<discord-> e​gg. — this is documented
<discord-> K​erbinator. — well not talking about interstellar stuffs
<discord-> K​erbinator. — but
<discord-> K​erbinator. — The RO ion engine
<discord-> K​erbinator. — orbit manipulator (very outdated and unusable) in RO wiki (why still exists) said that this feature would be implemented
<discord-> K​erbinator. — > The RO ion engine
<discord-> K​erbinator. — @Kerbinator
<discord-> e​gg. — That issue is quite the wall of text
<discord-> e​gg. — but one thing I can tell you is that it will not happen for a long time
<discord-> K​erbinator. — This is what I wish to go Bepicolombo or Dawn with n-body
<discord-> e​gg. — oh I am well aware of those spacecraft and their modes of propulsion; the question is not whether such a feature is sensible in principle (ion engines exist and there is plenty of exciting astrodynamics involving them).
<discord-> e​gg. —
<discord-> e​gg. — The question is implementation, which would be an immense amount of work (and a lot of coupling with the game in areas that we have so far managed to avoid)
<discord-> e​gg. — therefore, this will not happen in a very long time
<discord-> K​erbinator. — yep
<discord-> K​erbinator. — now I use 1000x physics warp
<discord-> K​erbinator. — just barely okay :3
<discord-> K​erbinator. — @moar ssto
<discord-> m​oar ssto. — Maybe just add a force pointing to one of the lockable directions by sas?
<discord-> K​erbinator. — thrust has been alredy implemented into flight planner
<discord-> K​erbinator. — maybe a good starting point 🤔
<discord-> m​oar ssto. — Or more like an acceleration that increases as fuel drains?
<discord-> e​gg. — > and please, please, unless you are a specialist in numerical computation of ephemerides, don’t suggest technical solutions to numerical computation of ephemerides
<discord-> e​gg. — @egg
<discord-> e​gg. — I must again stress that I am not seeking technical advice here.
<discord-> e​gg. — > and please, please, unless you are a specialist in numerical computation of ephemerides, don’t suggest technical solutions to numerical computation of ephemerides (edited)
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<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] lamont-granquist commented on issue #2347: Burn in time warp with RO ion engines (new feature suggestions) - https://git.io/Jf9u6
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<discord-> e​gg. — @lamont re. https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/2347#issuecomment-642736757 there is the "fixed-in-the-frenet-frame" option which is a bit less garbage than the other options, but obviously to your point open-loop still sucks.
<discord-> e​gg. — On the more boring software engineering side also there is simply the API mess of dealing with consumption of resources and engine characteristics on unloaded vessels obviously...
<discord-> l​amont. — yeah, but still even if you have that as a guidance law, where do you start pointing and how long do you burn in that direction to get where you're going?
<discord-> l​amont. — and yeah then the KSP plumbing is going to be nasty
<discord-> e​gg. — @lamont well, the flight plan uses that law, so planning with it (optimizing by hand) gives you open-loop towards whatever you planned
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<discord-> l​amont. — hmmm, i guess you could do that, still the next request is to automate it with mechjeb
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<discord-> e​gg. — @lamont yeah but at that point this is similar to the situation with high-energy trajectories: open-loop sucks, and the Principia flight planner is basically optimization with hand tools
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<discord-> e​gg. — similar superficially only obviously, in that the control problem is much harder
<discord-> e​gg. — really the biggest hurdle here is the KSP plumbing
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<discord-> e​gg. — there is some major plumbing that would be required within Principia, but that is reasonably understood
<discord-> l​amont. — yeah resources in timewarp always seem to be very problematic in KSP
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<discord-> e​gg. — yeah and Principia doesn't do its own part modules at the moment so that would be a whole new thing, with some persistence into the Principia state...
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<discord-> l​amont. — if you ever do that, consider using a vesselmodule
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<discord-> S​tandecco. — @Got or @Sir Mortimer would most likely be considered experts at this [resource consumption with principia and thrust-in-timewarp]
<discord-> e​gg. — yeah if I ever get to this I would likely bug them about that
<discord-> S​tandecco. — if I have absorbed enough from their conversations, vessel modules are indeed the best way to approach this
<discord-> G​ot. — A VesselModule can be convenient, but it's not strictly necessary.
<discord-> G​ot. — As soon as you go into the unloaded vessel territory, you're more or less working from scratch anyway.
<discord-> G​ot. — And yep, I concur. Making all engines work on unloaded vessels (I mean in a consistent way) basically involve rewriting a bunch of KSP modules, the whole resource system and to replicate the physics engine to an extent.
<discord-> G​ot. — My only expertise on the matter is that it would be a major undertaking even for stock engines, and on top of that it would have massive mod inter-compatibility issues.
<discord-> G​ot. — What we do in Kerbalism (the resource sim) is a very tiny proportion of what would be needed, and the way we do it wouldn't work for engines, as we don't implement any form of flow priority/crossfeed restrictions, and we definitely don't wan't to do it for various code complexity and performance reasons.
<discord-> e​gg. — Oh, yes. Flow.
<discord-> e​gg. — although of course flow problems are best addressed by pumping :D
<discord-> G​ot. — That's the issue, the cosmopump doesn't care much for priorities. It tend to suck everything from banana peels to kitchen stoves, and even sometime a bit of rocket fuel.
<discord-> l​amont. — lol
<discord-> l​amont. — yeah so mechjebs fuellowSim (FFS) done correctly with the bugs fixed
<discord-> l​amont. — yeah so mechjebs FuelFlowSim (FFS) done correctly with the bugs fixed (edited)
<discord-> G​ot. — Indeed I guess mechjeb probably actually have a good chunk of what would be needed, at least on the resource system and engine code. *Just* need to make it work without the vessel being loaded 😛
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<discord-> S​tonesmile. — Does Principia take CoM offset into account when applying forces?
<discord-> e​gg. — not yet
<discord-> e​gg. — there is an open issue about that
<discord-> S​tonesmile. — Ah, that would explain my issues then... I'll just add another solarpanel on the opposite side for now
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<discord-> K​obymaru. — so what is taking up so much space in the save file in the PrincipiaPluginAdapter? Is it the history of the vessels?
<discord-> e​gg. — pleroy is making progress towards that though
<discord-> e​gg. — (this will take a while)
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<discord-> K​obymaru. — good to hear
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<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] eggrobin opened pull request #2603: Automated primary detection - https://git.io/Jf99i
<_whitenotifier-d13c> [Principia] sswelm commented on issue #2347: Burn in time warp with RO ion engines (new feature suggestions) - https://git.io/Jf99S
<discord-> M​yshiko. — I wonder, whether actually resource consumption and flow needs to be simulated at all for typical ion-class engine.
<discord-> M​yshiko. — At least whether it needs to be simulated in perfect detains. The mass of the propellant of typical ion-engine is so low, that “constant acceleration on unchanging mass” can be assumed and be approximately correct.
<discord-> M​yshiko. — At least whether it needs to be simulated in perfect details. The mass of the propellant of typical ion-engine is so low, that “constant acceleration on unchanging mass” can be assumed and be approximately correct. (edited)
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<discord-> M​yshiko. — I would love for Principia to model low-thrust & constant mass situations, like - solar wind, solar sails, photon rockets (acceleration under EM emission), low-thrust high ISP ion engines.
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<discord-> M​yshiko. — For the situations when one really cares about flow priorities and rapidly changing masses, there is a loaded physics which takes care of all those details.
<discord-> M​yshiko. — For the situations when one really cares about flow priorities and rapidly changing masses, there is a loaded physics which takes care of all those details. And awesomely addressed the high thrust, low ISP situations. (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — yes, approximations can be made, but then you need to figure out how those approximations get reconciled with the real thing
<discord-> e​gg. — and that sounds like a lot of very boring software engineering
<discord-> M​yshiko. — Oh, no, that’s not boring at all 🙂
<discord-> M​yshiko. — I’m sure adding additional forces will be really fun to compute on high warp.
<discord-> e​gg. — oh yes the numerics are amusing, but that is not the bulk of the work
<discord-> e​gg. — resource management in particular is horrible; SRP or aerodynamics might be more feasible
<discord-> e​gg. — (though both require far more awareness of what vessels are made of than I am interested in at this time; the latter might be feasible through some API with FAR but that would be yet another category of software engineering mess, cross-mod API design...)
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<discord-> M​yshiko. — The concerns are understandable, and it does require some careful talking to other people and learning what might be meaningful job for Principia, what for mods that already spend resources on unloaded vessels, and what might be simply a good candidate for a separate glue-like mod.
<discord-> M​yshiko. — The concerns are understandable, and it does require some careful talking to other people and learning what might be meaningful job for Principia, what might be a job for mods that already spend resources on unloaded vessels, and what might be simply a good candidate for a separate glue-like mod. (edited)
<discord-> M​yshiko. — Like Kerbalism known how to spend resources at a constant rate
<discord-> M​yshiko. — Like Kerbalism knows how to spend resources at a constant rate on unloaded vessels. (edited)
<discord-> M​yshiko. — May be “ion propellant management” really is job for those types of mods, while Principia simply applies the constant force and does not care much why that force is there.
<discord-> e​gg. — well, hopefully some guidance function interchanged in some standard way, because constants are messy and interchange is costly and not a thing to be done in the middle of the integration; but let's not spend too much times detailing the technicalities of things that are years away
<discord-> e​gg. — right now, the focus is on figuring out how the Кудрявцев ephemeris representation works, and that is already a strange can of worms
<discord-> e​gg. — well, hopefully some guidance function interchanged in some standard way, because constants are messy and interchange is costly and not a thing to be done in the middle of the integration; but let's not spend too much time detailing the technicalities of things that are years away (edited)
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