UmbralRaptop changed the topic of #principia to: READ THE FAQ: http://goo.gl/gMZF9H; The current version is Fuchs. We currently target 1.5.1, 1.6.1, 1.7.x, 1.8.1, and 1.9.1. <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly… | <egg> also 4e16 m * 2^-52 is uncomfortably large
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<discord-> R​ukongai. — Quick question peeps, is there any way to deal with the problem that the maneuver node doesn't get reduced so it keeps burning perpetually?
<discord-> D​amien. — that sounds like a mechjeb issue
<discord-> D​amien. — as in it doesn't properly support principia
<discord-> D​amien. — do them manually
<discord-> R​ukongai. — yeah it happens when I have mechjeb complete the node. Oh well thanks mate 😄
<discord-> D​amien. — good old Z and X always work 🙂
<discord-> R​ukongai. — Yeah but even then the maneuver node doesn't deplete apparently so I don't know when to stop
<discord-> D​amien. — that's why the principia window has a countdown timer
<discord-> D​amien. — time to ignition, Z, burn duration, X
<discord-> D​amien. — burns are rarely 100% perfect so if you have the ability to tidy things up with RCS or a correction burn then great
<discord-> D​amien. — use the trajectory of your craft vs the flight plan trajectory to know when you're perfect
<discord-> D​amien. — I only ever use MJ for ascent to orbit so I wouldn't even know how to automate a burn
<discord-> R​ukongai. — Hm that's really weird, the numbers seem to add up, but for some reason when I complete the burn I am really far away from my node.
<discord-> R​ukongai. — Like I burn for the correct amount of time with the correct deltaV but the end result is different than the flight plan
<discord-> D​amien. — are you starting the burn at the right point? you don't do the 50/50 thing with principia
<discord-> R​ukongai. — Yeah I start exactly when it tells me to
<discord-> R​ukongai. — It feels like there isn't enough deltaV
<discord-> D​amien. — dunno then, take some pics or film it
<discord-> R​ukongai. — yeash doing that now 😄
<discord-> D​amien. — are you staging during the burn?
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<discord-> R​ukongai. — nop
<discord-> R​ukongai. — First i sbefore I burn, and second is where the burn ends and where I am supposed to be
<discord-> D​amien. — that's strange
<discord-> D​amien. — what engines are you using?
<discord-> B​utcher. — I have issues with RCS burns, but not with engines.
<discord-> R​ukongai. — Oh I just noticed that the change in deltaV on mechjeb deltaV readout don't add up they are 300 deltaV short. I am using a single RL10A-3 HydroLOX
<discord-> D​amien. — try replanning the burn but with only that engine in the stage
<discord-> D​amien. — and click active engines before planning it to be sure
<discord-> D​amien. — it looks like you have some SRBs in the same stage
<discord-> D​amien. — might be confusing it
<discord-> R​ukongai. — Oh yeah those were ullage ones. Lets see how do I disable them
<discord-> D​amien. — just move them into another stage and then click active engines
<discord-> D​amien. — your flight plan will probablky change
<discord-> D​amien. — your flight plan will probably change (edited)
<discord-> R​ukongai. — Hm the thing is I move the engines to another place, but the flight plan still doesn't change.
<discord-> R​ukongai. — Yeah, nothing changes in the mechjeb deltaV window so it's not registering, but it's probably that.
<discord-> R​ukongai. — Now to figure out how to deal with it
<discord-> D​amien. — @egg does 'active engines' depend on what has been staged and still usable, or what is in the current stage?
<discord-> e​gg. — it means « the engines that are currently on the vessel and active »
<discord-> D​amien. — ok so that staging trick wouldn't work then
<discord-> D​amien. — any ideas on @Rukongai's problem?
<discord-> D​amien. — looks like ullage SDBs are confusing the flight plan
<discord-> D​amien. — looks like ullage SRBs are confusing the flight plan (edited)
<discord-> R​ukongai. — Yeah, for som ereason if you notice the staging area it says I still have fuel on those SRBs which I don't actually they are empty
<discord-> R​ukongai. — Yeah, for some reason if you notice the staging area it says I still have fuel on those SRBs which I don't actually they are empty (edited)
<discord-> R​ukongai. — And unfortunately there is no way to deactive the engines apparently, at least these specific ones.
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<discord-> H​errkurt. — I have two or three questions regarding Principia: Does MJ launch planning for launching into the plane of a target still work? If not how do I launch into the plane of the Moon? If flight planning doesn't work for solids do I fall back on the stock system?
<discord-> D​amien. — launching into plane depends on if it's actually possible to. You can't directly launch into a plane with a lower inclination than your launch site latitude without correcting for it, usually by an expensive dogleg
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<discord-> H​errkurt. — Cape to Moon.
<discord-> D​amien. — without principia, the moon's orbit is fixed at approx 28.6°, which IRL and with principia, is the highest inclination it reaches on its precession cycle
<discord-> D​amien. — most of the time it's lower than that so you either have to spend a LOT of fuel doglegging, do an AN/DN transfer, or some kind of direct ascent
<discord-> D​amien. — for launches from the cape when the moon is too low to launch directly to, see how launches from baikonur work
<discord-> D​amien. — same problem
<discord-> H​errkurt. — How do I schedule for an AN/DN transfer?
<discord-> D​amien. — lots of trial and error I to get the timings down probably
<discord-> D​amien. — I've not done it for a long time myself
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<discord-> D​amien. — you want to launch into an orbit that allows you to perform TLI at the AN/DN of your orbit and the moon's orbital plane, but do so when the moon is <TLI transfer time> away from the opposite AN/DN
<discord-> D​amien. — you want to launch into an orbit that allows you to perform TLI at the AN/DN of your orbit and the moon's, but do so when the moon is <TLI transfer time> away from the opposite AN/DN (edited)
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<discord-> D​amien. — if you're testing it out, practice doing the AN/DN transfer to meet the moon's orbit regardless of where the moon is. and then use the info you get from that test to fine tune when you do the launch
<discord-> D​amien. — you can also look into something like a polar direct ascent where you head over the north pole and meet the moon somewhere at the lowest point of its orbit
<discord-> D​amien. — tl;dr space is hard
<discord-> D​amien. — you can also look into something like a polar direct ascent/parking orbit transfer where you head over the north pole and meet the moon somewhere at the lowest point of its orbit (edited)
<discord-> H​errkurt. — Is there a way to view the Moon's time to AN/DN?
<discord-> D​amien. — not as far as I know
<discord-> D​amien. — just guesstimate using the Mk.1 Eyeball
<discord-> H​errkurt. — How do you time a direct ascent? Do a hundred simulations?
<discord-> D​amien. — yeah direct ascent is painful
<discord-> H​errkurt. — I guess eyeball when it is at it's lowest point and opposite your launch site.
<discord-> D​amien. — the one lunar DA I did had the benefit of using an RL launch date and it was still a nightmare
<discord-> D​amien. — it's less nightmarish if you have attitude control though
<discord-> D​amien. — I didn't
<kmath> YouTube - RSSRO Career w/ Principia - Pioneer I (Direct Ascent Moon Intercept)
<discord-> H​errkurt. — I'm using a Thor-Able with something akin to Pioneer.
<discord-> D​amien. — that's what I used 🙂
<discord-> D​amien. — so yeah enjoy
<discord-> D​amien. — I took a long break from ksp after that mission
<discord-> H​errkurt. — I may be losing my appetite for Principia. The tools don't yet exist to make it accessible enough. I'll test AN/DN timing, but I have 6 Moon transfers planned for the next couple years of my RP-1 campaign. And that assumes no missed windows because of engine failures.
<discord-> D​amien. — AN/DN transfers aren't too bad. You can probably eyeball it close enough and if your probe has RCS you can make corrections if you're off
<discord-> D​amien. — direct ascent with SRB TLI and unguided probes is really cavemanish and it has the difficulty level to go with it
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<discord-> H​errkurt. — I have enough delta-v to get the Able stage in a parking orbit and the solid can do the transfer on it's own, so it doesn't have to be direct ascent.
<discord-> H​errkurt. — But the probe has only the smallest ability to increase or decrease prograde velocity. ~1 unit of HTP.
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<discord-> D​amien. — changing velocity will affect transfer time so should move your moon Pe due to the moon moving, so you may be ok
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<discord-> e​gg. — @Damien you can get AN/DN wrt the orbit of the moon in the appropriate frames
<discord-> D​amien. — it's time to AN/DN he's after
<discord-> D​amien. — so he doesn't have to eyeball it
<discord-> e​gg. — what exactly are you trying to eyeball
<discord-> D​amien. — Herrkurt, not me but just general lunar transfers I think
<discord-> D​amien. — he's a MJ user having to think about how to do things manually
<discord-> e​gg. — ah
<discord-> e​gg. — manually grab a poking stick, and manually poke lamont :-p
<discord-> D​amien. — easy launch into plane from the cape spoils people
<discord-> e​gg. — to be quite honest if you are new to Principia I strongly recommend using Kourou
<discord-> e​gg. — you are relearning all the things already, don't make your job harder
<discord-> D​amien. — @Herrkurt do this tbh
<discord-> e​gg. — @Butcher I see there are new textures based on Vannadin's, did you address https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/issues/2447#issuecomment-576589538 ?
<discord-> e​gg. — (not a Principia issue, but more noticeable with Principia since the Moon starts in a different place)
<discord-> e​gg. — (currently trying to install RSS at 150 KB/s)
<discord-> I​diottsandwich. — how much deltaV should i aim for returning from the moon?
<discord-> B​utcher. — @egg I did some work on the Lunar textures, I don't recall if I fixed normals.
<discord-> B​utcher. — If they are still broken, I can regenerate normals from the source height data.
<discord-> e​gg. — I guess whenever they download themselves I can check whether they look \ok
<discord-> e​gg. — in, uh, a day,
<discord-> B​utcher. — Things that are definitely new: albedo, height
<discord-> e​gg. — just got a leaflet to get fibre internet
<discord-> B​utcher. — It's handy.
<discord-> e​gg. — right now I think I have string and tin can internet
<discord-> B​utcher. — I remastered the the heights in 16-bit and the albedo data from NASA sources, so they should be pretty good now.
<discord-> e​gg. — nice
<discord-> e​gg. — did someone ever look at the question of the orientation of Pluto?
<discord-> B​utcher. — Um, I didn;t, someone else might have.
<discord-> e​gg. — I guess that issue should be moved to RSS-textures https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealSolarSystem/issues/91
<discord-> B​utcher. — Few people make it out to Pluto.
<discord-> e​gg. — the tracking station is a wonderful thing :-p
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<discord-> e​gg. — @DRVeyl I am very confused that your mod is not called RealAntennæ :-p
<discord-> B​utcher. — I am just launching Monekys into space.
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — I lack the love of unicode 😉
<discord-> B​utcher. — I am just launching Monkeys into space. (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — @Butcher have you considered expanding into cats
<discord-> D​amien. — Make RealAntenna(s)(æ)(qwertyuiop) Great Again
<discord-> A​lnitak. — Hi guys, I have problem with principia. I think that it isn't working like it should. Wait i'll send pics.
<discord-> B​utcher. — @egg was that moon normals issue with vannadin's textures only?
<discord-> B​utcher. — Because I'm pretty sure mine are fine.
<discord-> e​gg. — I believe it was with vannadin's, yes
<discord-> e​gg. — I mentioned that because the release notes for the new RSS textures mention vannadin
<discord-> e​gg. — 0.3/1.6 GB!
<discord-> D​amien. — almost there!
<discord-> B​utcher. — I'll check the textures when I get home.
<discord-> B​utcher. — I'm running 4k I think, because my laptop is a potato.
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<discord-> B​utcher. — @egg Obvious problem I've spotted immediately, the normal maps are not mipped.
<discord-> e​gg. — what is a mip
<discord-> B​utcher. — Other than that, they look fine.
<discord-> B​utcher. — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mipmap
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<discord-> i​tsRyan. — > how much deltaV should i aim for returning from the moon?
<discord-> i​tsRyan. — @Idiottsandwich If your lunar parking orbit is well aligned with the direction of the moon's orbit somewhere around 800 m/s for a Hohmann.
<discord-> A​lnitak. — Sorry that I am sending pics late, but this is just weird
<discord-> A​lnitak. — > Hi guys, I have problem with principia. I think that it isn't working like it should. Wait i'll send pics.
<discord-> A​lnitak. — @Alnitak
<discord-> A​lnitak. — Looks like Earth became middle of everything and all planets have some invisible "star" that makes them orbit around it and not Sun.
<discord-> A​lnitak. — Or is it completely fine? I am new to principia.
<discord-> A​lnitak. — Is there something wrong, or is it completely fine? I am new to principia. (edited)
<discord-> B​utcher. — Looks fine.
<discord-> A​lnitak. — Look at first picture, do you see pluto?
<discord-> A​lnitak. — It should have some inclination, but it doesn't have
<discord-> A​lnitak. — Look at first picture, do you see Pluto? (edited)
<discord-> A​lnitak. — It should have some inclination, but it doesn't have any against the Sun, just flat disc. (edited)
<discord-> A​lnitak. — It should have some inclination, but it doesn't have any against the Sun, just flat disc with invisible center of gravity. (edited)
<discord-> b​adgermasher. — Read the concepts, specifically the frames of reference
<discord-> B​utcher. — You are in the ecef frame, of course they look a bit odd.
<discord-> M​yshiko. — ECEF frame is essentially Ancient Greeks view on the Universe.
<discord-> M​yshiko. — Please try other Plotting frames, depending on the purpose one is more useful then the others.
<discord-> e​gg. — @Alnitak ECEF is the Earth surface reference frame
<discord-> e​gg. — as seen from the surface of the earth, where you are presumably currently sitting, the earth does not move
<discord-> e​gg. — it does not even rotate
<discord-> e​gg. — instead, if you look up, you see things moving above you
<discord-> A​lnitak. — @egg Thanks, that helped a lot
<discord-> e​gg. — indeed if you timewarp you can see that; the camera moves with the surface of the earth, so you can see the universe rotating around the earth
<discord-> e​gg. — (and all the bodies move along the lines that you showed in those screenshots)
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<discord-> H​errkurt. — @egg @Damien Kourou isn't an option for this save. I am playing an RP-1 career and already in '59.
<discord-> A​lnitak. — @egg I see this very confusing, i just downloaded it few hours ago and when I see these orbits, CONFUSED SCREAMING
<discord-> D​amien. — Welcome to principia
<discord-> H​errkurt. — I'm gonna drop Principia. It doesn't have the accessibility tools to guide learning by doing, like a display of orbital information of target bodies (i.e. time to AN/DN) to aid transfers, no support for solid stages, and my computer is not handling it well even before I start planning and only have 4 flights in LEO.
<discord-> D​amien. — Fair enough. It does have its shortcomings when it comes to usability
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<discord-> B​utcher. — My main grumble is rcs. I can cope with bad solids.
<discord-> H​errkurt. — Following a historical use design philosophy solids are very important for deep space probes.
<discord-> H​errkurt. — Following a historical US design philosophy solids are very important for deep space probes. (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — it definitely does not play like stock at all; this is especially true of targeting/rendez-vous etc.
<discord-> e​gg. — those who do learn it tend to like the reference-frame-based approach to approaching the target, but no-one has gone out of their way to write guides, tutorials, etc.
<discord-> e​gg. — so there is quite the learning cliff
<discord-> e​gg. — hence while starting to use Principia with all the other difficulty options turned to the max is likely not the best way
<discord-> e​gg. — hence why starting to use Principia with all the other difficulty options turned to the max is likely not the best way (edited)
<discord-> H​errkurt. — I am playing RP-1 on hard already.
<discord-> H​errkurt. — I can appreciate the added difficulty of having to plan launch windows with more considerations, but the tools to help you plan the windows without brute force trial and error are not present.
<discord-> M​yshiko. — @Herrkurt it’s totally fine. Principia was not designed to make life easy, it was designed to make life “real”.
<discord-> H​errkurt. — I like difficult, obviously I'm playing RP-1 on hard, but RP-1 has extensive documentation and the tools exist within it to guide you somewhat.
<discord-> H​errkurt. — I like difficult and realistic, obviously I'm playing RP-1 on hard, but RP-1 has extensive documentation and the tools exist within it to guide you somewhat. (edited)
<discord-> D​amien. — @Herrkurt the wiki has a lot of useful information but yes it's in need of some player made documentation/ tutorials. Egg can't do everything though and he's probably not even best placed to do so, being a robot and having no need for such trifles
<discord-> D​amien. — @Herrkurt the wiki has a lot of useful information but yes it's in need of some player made documentation/tutorials. Egg can't do everything though and he's probably not even best placed to do so, being a robot and having no need for such trifles (edited)
<discord-> e​gg. — I'm not a robot! I am an egg
<discord-> D​amien. — 🦾🥚
<discord-> B​utcher. — Cyborg.
<discord-> e​gg. — technically we do have some pretty in-depth documentation that we write ourselves
<discord-> e​gg. — however it is of no use to users
<discord-> H​errkurt. — Hehe
<discord-> B​utcher. — @egg how stable is the code of I build it?
<discord-> e​gg. — On the other hand, if you want a comprehensive treatment of rigid body rotation, https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia/blob/master/documentation/Celledoni.pdf is not bad
<discord-> D​amien. — It's the 'developmentally interesting' curse. Complex features like rotation modelling tickle Egg's pickle in fun ways. User experience features, not so much
<discord-> e​gg. — flipside of managing to keep the developers interested for five years I suppose
<discord-> D​amien. — Yup
<discord-> e​gg. — mind you, sometimes there is some intersection: making scene changes faster is interesting, via the question of ephemeris representation
<discord-> D​amien. — That and if it was easy to use what would we have to act elitest and superior about?
<discord-> e​gg. — this evening's research session was quite productive
<discord-> e​gg. — We came to the conclusion that 3/2 of the period of Io is a significant term in the motion of Io,
<discord-> D​amien. — When MJ natively supports principia we'll have to take our smugness elsewhere because it'll be too mainstream
<discord-> e​gg. — hopefully by then @Sir Mortimer will have created KC
<discord-> e​gg. — and you will be able to be smug about doing mission design
<discord-> D​amien. — That's the hope
<discord-> D​amien. — Jokes aside though MJ support will drive so many people to principia
<discord-> B​utcher. — KC?
<discord-> D​amien. — It's a good thing because it's cool to see more people interested but it'll be the same problem there is in stock and rss with people getting to mid-late game using MJ without understanding anything and then asking annoying questions
<discord-> D​amien. — It's a good thing because it's cool to see more people interested but it'll be the same problem there is in stock and rss, with people getting to mid-late game using MJ without understanding anything and then asking annoying questions (edited)
<discord-> s​iimav. — Don't really see that as an issue. At least with patched conics I know how to manually plan and execute maneuvers but at some point in a career game it gets tedious. This is where MJ comes in to save the day.
<discord-> D​amien. — Yeah that's a perfectly decent way to use it
<discord-> e​gg. — yeah using MJ to plan in Principia is many years away tbh
<discord-> D​amien. — Automating stuff you can do manually
<discord-> s​iimav. — I really do not find tweaking my 5th Venus transfer manually any fun.
<discord-> e​gg. — (besides perhaps trivial situations where 2-body approximations apply)
<discord-> D​amien. — It's when you use it instead of learning steps 1-8 then start asking questions about step 9/10 without the relevant understanding
<discord-> e​gg. — there is a reason why GTOC is a thing
<discord-> e​gg. — and I don't really see MJ contending in GTOC anytime soon :-p
<discord-> l​pg. — > RP-1 has extensive documentation
<discord-> l​pg. — rarely spoken words
<discord-> H​errkurt. — If MJ could help you finding AN/DN transfer windows to the Moon that would be a big help in itself.
<discord-> H​errkurt. — That and the ability to flight plan for solids would have been enough for me to keep moving forward at this point. Well if it weren't for my computer growing somewhat elderly.
<discord-> H​errkurt. — That much lag with only 4 sats in orbit was a bad sign.
<discord-> D​amien. — I think the issue with srbs is thrust curves
<discord-> D​amien. — Not simple to add in
<discord-> H​errkurt. — Ahh, hadn't thought of that.
<discord-> e​gg. — yeah while we might be able to support them for stock, open-loop execution would likely be terrible with RO
<discord-> e​gg. — (and not everything can be tossed on the MJ feature requests; spin-stabilized solid burns have no control loop, so open-loop would have to be good enough)
<discord-> e​gg. — ah, forgot to install forgotten real engines
<discord-> D​amien. — I've never actually used that mod
<discord-> e​gg. — and niche parts
<discord-> e​gg. — both a bit dated sadly
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<discord-> e​gg. — @DRVeyl your antenna cones are very pretty
<discord-> D​RVeyl. — Oo, thankyou. Had fun learning to draw them, too.
<discord-> e​gg. — Something like that would likely be useful for imagers etc. for KC