egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] Ta180m starred Principia - https://git.io/JOrBw
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ Well, I think there's something that can be done now
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ as I've tested, TiltEm is **NOT** that buggy at all (at least, no bugs for out-of-atmosphere orbit)
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ the only problem that arise is, due to rotation frame change, the ship's direction can have significant shift like the old Principia
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ (when passing invertRotAltitudeThreshold)
<queqiao-_> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ ngl patched conics with axial tilt would be awesome
<queqiao-_> ⟨r​ocketman⟩ my computer would thank me
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ however, to different planet, result varies: through the method of whether Orbital speed or Surface speed drop to 0 horizontally (and several hundred m/s vertically)
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ test results: Jupiter will **not** rotate atmospherically, however Saturn certainly will, when without invertRotAltitudeThreshold
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ So I'm hoping egg or one of Principia devs may help us to make ship direction persist when passing through the rotating frame change :3
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ cuz I'm bad at coding after all (just a bunch of cfg edit which most RO players are capable to do when self-debugging)
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ So I'm hoping egg or one of Principia devs may help us to make ship direction persist when passing through the rotating frame change :3
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ And for sake of stock players, persistent rotate should be able to be toggled either off(stock RSS) or on(RO)
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ ------------ (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ So I'm hoping egg or one of Principia devs may help us to make ship direction persist when passing through the rotating frame change :3
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ And for sake of stock players, persistent rotation should be able to be toggled either off(stock RSS) or on(RO)
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ ------------ (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ and good for spacestation engineer (you'll find your station lost because of multiple pertubations and there are no automatic correction implemented in Principia)
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<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ repo: https://github.com/LunaMultiplayer/TiltEm/
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ my testing is shown as issues there
<queqiao-_> ⟨!​Kerbinator (free to ping me)!⟩ my testing is shown as issues there (not as buggy as expected is already okay, since it works just good enough for Earth so it may not be more faulty than non-principia original RSS anyway) (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ Something peculiar's happening to my .sfs, don't know if it's related to the test3200 build or happenstance. File was ~70MB; warping ahead ~3 months brought it up to ~170MB; resetting history via Hack Gravity on all my "in orbit" vessels (13) - but leaving alone ~40 vessels on interplanetary paths - only brought it down to ~140MB. I confirmed it's principia data taking most of the space by manually cu
<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ (I also now have godawful scene load times, which could be a consequence, a separate symptom of something wrong, or just a consequence of all those vessels in flight)
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ hm, send us the save, this might be interesting
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ (both the 140 and the 170 MB ones)
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ if we have data that we keep around despite gravity hackery, that might be a bug
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ alternatively, if interplanetary vessels have become Big, that would be a bug, too
<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ links here or github issue?
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ github is probably best to avoid getting lost in the backlog
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] lpgagnon opened issue #3203: Unexpected .sfs growth with #3200 test build - https://git.io/J1lEx
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<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy assigned issue #3203: Unexpected .sfs growth with #3200 test build - https://git.io/J1lEx
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<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ what are the requirements for building principia on windows? assuming visual studio
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ thank you!
<queqiao-_> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ Rocketman, if you run into things that are particularly slow/painful, by all means open issues on GitHub describing what you are doing and how to reproduce ("this is slow" and "make it faster" are not helping). We don't play with KSP/Principia so it might be that there are low-hanging fruits in terms of performance for some use cases.
<queqiao-_> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ As for Kerbinator's pet project, https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/179281-110-tiltem-planetary-axial-tilt/&do=findComment&comment=3558196 is an excellent explanation of why this is really, really difficult. It is probably possible to implement axial tilt without redoing all the physics of Principia, but it might actually end up more complicated than Principia, notably beca
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<_whitenotifier> [Principia] lpgagnon commented on issue #3203: Unexpected .sfs growth with #3200 test build - https://git.io/J1RrE
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ I see the moon isn’t orbiting fast enough for you :D
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ I see the moon isn’t orbiting fast enough for you 🌚 (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ (building Principia is admittedly a little bit easier than lowering the orbit of the Moon)
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ when else in my life do i get to redefine the gravitational constant? but seriously i wanted to use a version without the flight planner memory leak. i love sitting in the planner and playing with trajectories—it's why i started using principia and i find it endlessly fascinating
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ yeah that makes a lot of sense (what a strange bug that was, too)
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ it must have been a thing for ages ? but I think we’ve been hearing about it a lot more since this summer for some reason
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ i read the github issue. #justunitythings
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ i hit it on my first rp-1 playthrough...june? so about that time
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ got the build working btw. rebuilding to release. just had to update the assembly references and update the `polynomial.hpp` hack
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ yeah the codebase has some exciting stress testing of various compilers…
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ it's a chunky build, felt like i was using win 3.1 while it was running
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ oh yeah, especially the first time you set things up when you build all the dependencies, it takes quite a while
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ wasn't june when rp-[01] rebased to ksp 1.10?
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ hm, so might it be a Unity upgrade thing?
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ that would be my i-haven't-been-a-sustaining-engineer-in-15-years guess
<queqiao-_> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ iirc that's just when we started requiring 1.10?
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ is a sustaining engineer like a sustainer engine?
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ actually...yes?
<queqiao-_> ⟨A​l2Me6⟩ 1.8 and 1.10 are on the same Unity though
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ it's an engineer who does bugfixes instead of feature development. usually implies you're working on a proprietary OS and stuffing kernel core files into gdb
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ oh high waxing gibbous release
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ oh hi waxing gibbous release (edited)
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ could call it the Bogdanoff (fr-FR) release: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_and_Grichka_Bogdanoff
<raptop> aaaaaa
<queqiao-_> ⟨e​gg⟩ no I don’t mean that there is a new release, I was just seeing the moon, which is waxing gibbous (which means that the release is waxing gibbous, it will not be new until December).
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ oh ok. i was just excited to share my naming idea for an out-of-cycle release
<raptop> Unless it makes SSDs spin at 15000 rpm or something, an out-of-cycle release seems unlikely
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ not pushing for it at all, i just misinterpreted. the fact that principia exists and is actively developed with a regular release cycle is a gift to kerbalkind
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<queqiao-_> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ Let us know if the flight planner fix helps. I am sure that I fixed a leak, but there may be other dragons lurking.
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ so far so good. i was playing around with it open for ~10 mins and ksp was not growing in memory size at all. have flown a couple simulations since then and zero texture bugs etc.
<queqiao-_> ⟨c​offeequaffer⟩ so far so good. i was playing around with the flight planner open for ~10 mins and ksp was not growing in memory size at all. have flown a couple simulations since then and zero texture bugs etc. (edited)
<raptop> now to annoy egg: https://arxiv.org/abs/2111.07207
<raptop> (Things that Principia will never do)
<queqiao-_> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ bug: SSDs may begin rotating at 15000 rpm
<queqiao-_> ⟨(​ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴍᴇɴᴛᴀʟshells)⟩ fix: users are advised to remove their machine from centrifuge
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​umpkinaxe⟩ I've got a question: In terms of mass in the force of gravity equation thingy, is it based on the relative masses of the 2 objects? or the absolute mass? What I mean by the relative mass i mean the mass increase as they travel at considerable percentages of the speed of light relative to eachother? or the absolute mass, the mass of the objects at an inertial reference frame of 0m/s?
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​umpkinaxe⟩ does this even make sense?
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​umpkinaxe⟩ so like 2 objects falling into eachother. Would the force just increase because the distance between them gets shorter? or would it increase very very slightly in adition to the speed
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​umpkinaxe⟩ of the 2 objects
<queqiao-_> ⟨s​cimas⟩ Relativity is not accounted for. This is purely Newtonian gravity.
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<queqiao-_> ⟨P​umpkinaxe⟩ i mean in general, like what actually happens in our universe
<queqiao-_> ⟨s​cimas⟩ General relativity. As far as I understand, modern physics doesn't talk about rest and relativistic mass, when physicists talk about mass they mean the rest mass. The "increase in mass with speed" is actually increase in energy with speed, which gets accounted for somewhere in the energy momentum tensor. And I don't remember nearly enough of my GR course to explain it further.
<queqiao-_> ⟨P​umpkinaxe⟩ AHHHH!!!! ok! interesting!
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<raptop> Evil tensors with far too many indicies
<queqiao-_> ⟨I​ceWater⟩ Hello, yes I can do that. In the middle of moving but will get to it
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy commented on issue #3203: Unexpected .sfs growth with #3200 test build - https://git.io/J10SO
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<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ Is it expected that a .sfs generated with the test3200 build isn't compatible with Halley? Tried reverting, got crashes with two post-3200 builds. Going back to my last Halley-generated .sfs works fine.
<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ not even principia FATAL crashes, straight null pointer segfaults
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<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ Is it expected that a .sfs generated with the test3200 build isn't compatible with Halley? Tried reverting, got crashes with two post-3200 saves. Going back to my last Halley-generated .sfs works fine. (edited)
<_whitenotifier> [Principia] pleroy commented on issue #3203: Unexpected .sfs growth with #3200 test build - https://git.io/J10h3
<queqiao-_> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ Well, let's say that it's not unexpected. We don't support compatibility in that direction (forward compatibility). Halley has never heard of the code added in test3200. OTOH, a save created with Halley (or older) should be readable with test3200.
<queqiao-_> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ I hope that it didn't wreak your saves 😟
<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ it's gotten barely playable from scene switch time, but still functional. I was just curious to see what might happen if Halley re-saved a fat .sfs
<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ I was also interested to see how the sfs growth would compare, but with those crashes I have to go back too far to get a meaningful comparison
<queqiao-_> ⟨s​ichelgaita⟩ Don't throw away these fat saves, there is always a chance that I would be able to squeeze them again once I understand the bug.
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<queqiao-_> ⟨l​pg⟩ ouch. up to 260MB, and a quicksave takes 45 seconds. that seems slow even for that size
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